New Toyo Proxes R888R tire just announced
12-02-2014, 04:31 PM
#21
The SCCA has its head up its *** with the street tire rules. They will stand there anf tell you to your face about how much cheaper it is to run 200tw tires and that it opens the playing field to the 1st time autoxer. It is a load of Bull ****. If you drive a large tire car you have 1 tire choice BFG( Who i suspect is at least pushing this if not funding it entirely, as they could not make a tire to beat the hoosier, so they get the rules changed) My tire budget more than doubled to go from hoosiers to rivals. the rivals had QC issues that had tires splitting at tread splices, they did not last as long, the grip was WAY off the hoosier, and to as insult to injury they would not do contingency tires for the SCCA CAM classes where their product was pretty much a spec tire. Now the SCCA has seen fit to exclude the corvette from the CAM classes and a stock Z28 and 1LE camaro is required to change to a LESS aggressive tire than what they have as an OEM tire the CAM class will die a quick death with only the the southern cali area having "Pro Touring" car that people actually race
12-02-2014, 04:37 PM
#22
Pro
those were the people I was thinking of. I am an east coaster. cars like that dont really exist here in the east and really not here in the northeast. In new england there are 1st gen camaros and mustangs, etc, but they are rubbed with diapers at car shows, never raced. and the odd one that in raced is a full race car/ drag car and not and autoxer. the local SCCA solo program have a very low interest level from the modern muscle car market as they feel the rules are biased in the direction of small imported cars. getting the word out about the CAM classes has not worked. Then the SCCA bans the corvette from CAM which was its best customer( nation wide) they even turned away competitors at nationals in modern corvettes and ended up with under subscribed classes.
12-02-2014, 04:39 PM
#23
Safety Car
I like the 200TW rule (or 140... it's pretty arbitrary what they pick as long as they keep the r-comps excluded). How could your budget have possibly doubled? They last much, much longer than an A6. You have more choice of tire now than you did before the rule... if you want to be competitive that is. I ran through a set of RS-3s in about 3 months -- I would have gone through about 4 sets of Hoosiers in that time if I had been running them. No thank you. Just run SSR if you still want r-comps.
Rivals are insanely expensive. Price out a 315/18 squared setup once between the Rival and the R888, the R888 is much cheaper and way better of a tire.
12-02-2014, 04:43 PM
#24
Pro
I was not talking about "Stock " cars. taking what will be the heaviest, highest HP cars at an event and putting them on the worst tires is what these rules do. Our main local site has always been under the threat of loss due to sound violations. this year we added complaints of the sound of squealing tires "all day" vs the occasional loud exh. which as brought a new group of negitive people to the fight to remove the NE's main site.
12-02-2014, 04:50 PM
#25
Why should R comps or 100TW be excluded? If its a DOT approved tire, its a street tire.. Period. That cant even be debated. Hell the R888 does pretty good as far as wear goes, we put over 5000 street miles and a few track days on a set and they are mounted on a legit 960whp C5Z.
Rivals are insanely expensive. Price out a 315/18 squared setup once between the Rival and the R888, the R888 is much cheaper and way better of a tire.
Rivals are insanely expensive. Price out a 315/18 squared setup once between the Rival and the R888, the R888 is much cheaper and way better of a tire.
1. If you are, you aren't winning on R888. If you're not, why do you care what they do?
2. If you are, why are you running 315/18 square? Unless pinching on stock rims, that bumps you to SSP at which point you get your precious r-comps. Or, again, just run SSR. If you run a normal set up, rivals are in line with other normal street tires. And even if they were the same price as r-comps, they last MUCH longer. You can't argue that they don't. 5000 miles out of rivals would be terrible.
This is literally on tirerack's description for the A6 "WARNING: DOT labeled Hoosier Racing Tires meet Department of Transportation requirements for marking and performance only and are NOT INTENDED FOR HIGHWAY USE". Just because a tire meets the bare minimum requirements to be legal as a street tires does not make it a true street tire. Was the tire designed with intent of being primarily street driven? Or was it a competition tire that made compromise to skirt by regulations to make it road legal? It goes against the spirit of the class. It's unequivocally cheaper to run non r-comp tires. I'll concede that the change from 140 to 200 was pretty unnecessary since TW isn't standardized anyways, but it's an otherwise good rule.
As an aside, why do you care what CAM does? It's pretty evident that C5s and C6s (and C7s) aren't a fit for that class. CAM just gave a class to cars that otherwise didn't really have a place to play. It doesn't effect you at all.
Last edited by dhowdy; 12-02-2014 at 04:59 PM.
12-02-2014, 05:11 PM
#26
Pro
as for prices 1st figure in no free tires for winning. Next at the start of the season the 315/18 rival was 427.00 vs 368.00 for the A6. There is NO other competitive tire choice in these sizes. Next the rival was not competitive as a sticker tire, It need a brake in time. ( this was from the mouth of BFG and I saw it on my own car, At the SEMA show they admitted that the 2014 rival had issues including the needed break in and QC issues and short life and that they were making changes to the tires for 2015. If you add in the availability of take-off A6 tires ( there are no take off rivals) the price of hoosiers drops even more. I know that a national level competitor wont use take offs, but a local mid pack racer will, And that is the argument this Street tire rule is based on.
As it sits now, the C7 Z06, the Z/28, the 1LE, the Viper, the GT-R, and 911 all must not race on their OEM tire, because they are too good. or go to SSR that they only kept as a class to stop a mini revolt they had going
These are my opinions, and I have not won any National championships. but it has always seemed to me the SCCA like to stick it to the American cars and reward the small imports.(both European and Asian)
As it sits now, the C7 Z06, the Z/28, the 1LE, the Viper, the GT-R, and 911 all must not race on their OEM tire, because they are too good. or go to SSR that they only kept as a class to stop a mini revolt they had going
These are my opinions, and I have not won any National championships. but it has always seemed to me the SCCA like to stick it to the American cars and reward the small imports.(both European and Asian)
12-02-2014, 05:20 PM
#27
Safety Car
Are you talking about SCCA autocross or not?
1. If you are, you aren't winning on R888. If you're not, why do you care what they do?
2. If you are, why are you running 315/18 square? Unless pinching on stock rims, that bumps you to SSP at which point you get your precious r-comps. Or, again, just run SSR. If you run a normal set up, rivals are in line with other normal street tires. And even if they were the same price as r-comps, they last MUCH longer. You can't argue that they don't. 5000 miles out of rivals would be terrible.
This is literally on tirerack's description for the A6 "WARNING: DOT labeled Hoosier Racing Tires meet Department of Transportation requirements for marking and performance only and are NOT INTENDED FOR HIGHWAY USE". Just because a tire meets the bare minimum requirements to be legal as a street tires does not make it a true street tire. Was the tire designed with intent of being primarily street driven? Or was it a competition tire that made compromise to skirt by regulations to make it road legal? It goes against the spirit of the class. It's unequivocally cheaper to run non r-comp tires. I'll concede that the change from 140 to 200 was pretty unnecessary since TW isn't standardized anyways, but it's an otherwise good rule.
As an aside, why do you care what CAM does? It's pretty evident that C5s and C6s (and C7s) aren't a fit for that class. CAM just gave a class to cars that otherwise didn't really have a place to play. It doesn't effect you at all.
1. If you are, you aren't winning on R888. If you're not, why do you care what they do?
2. If you are, why are you running 315/18 square? Unless pinching on stock rims, that bumps you to SSP at which point you get your precious r-comps. Or, again, just run SSR. If you run a normal set up, rivals are in line with other normal street tires. And even if they were the same price as r-comps, they last MUCH longer. You can't argue that they don't. 5000 miles out of rivals would be terrible.
This is literally on tirerack's description for the A6 "WARNING: DOT labeled Hoosier Racing Tires meet Department of Transportation requirements for marking and performance only and are NOT INTENDED FOR HIGHWAY USE". Just because a tire meets the bare minimum requirements to be legal as a street tires does not make it a true street tire. Was the tire designed with intent of being primarily street driven? Or was it a competition tire that made compromise to skirt by regulations to make it road legal? It goes against the spirit of the class. It's unequivocally cheaper to run non r-comp tires. I'll concede that the change from 140 to 200 was pretty unnecessary since TW isn't standardized anyways, but it's an otherwise good rule.
As an aside, why do you care what CAM does? It's pretty evident that C5s and C6s (and C7s) aren't a fit for that class. CAM just gave a class to cars that otherwise didn't really have a place to play. It doesn't effect you at all.
Although I do feel that the SCCA should do the same. If its DOT approved, its DOT approved...
12-02-2014, 05:53 PM
#28
Drifting
Using the DOT as your judge for racing/autox rules seems insane. Slicks with a couple of divots in them are DOT approved. What street do you drive on these?
12-02-2014, 06:01 PM
#29
Former Vendor
The SCCA has its head up its *** with the street tire rules. They will stand there anf tell you to your face about how much cheaper it is to run 200tw tires and that it opens the playing field to the 1st time autoxer. It is a load of Bull ****. If you drive a large tire car you have 1 tire choice BFG( Who i suspect is at least pushing this if not funding it entirely, as they could not make a tire to beat the hoosier, so they get the rules changed) My tire budget more than doubled to go from hoosiers to rivals. the rivals had QC issues that had tires splitting at tread splices, they did not last as long, the grip was WAY off the hoosier, and to as insult to injury they would not do contingency tires for the SCCA CAM classes where their product was pretty much a spec tire. Now the SCCA has seen fit to exclude the corvette from the CAM classes and a stock Z28 and 1LE camaro is required to change to a LESS aggressive tire than what they have as an OEM tire the CAM class will die a quick death with only the the southern cali area having "Pro Touring" car that people actually race
The Rival is only $18.00 more than the R888 in the 315/30-18 size.
12-02-2014, 06:03 PM
#30
Safety Car
The one in front of my house? Bottom line is dot approved is dot approved, should be at the drivers discretion what tire he wants to use as long it's legal for street use.
12-02-2014, 06:08 PM
#31
Safety Car
Yes in the initial launch of the Rival one of the primary markets they wanted to address was the pro-touring bunch. Hoosier was never a player in that group as they do not make a "true" street tire to compete with tires like the Rival. The Hoosier R6/A6 road race tires are direct competitors with BF Goodrich G-Force R1/R1S. They R6 is slower and wears faster than the R1 while the A7 is still the king of the cones. The new Hoosier R7 should turn the tables on the BFG R1.
The Rival is only $18.00 more than the R888 in the 315/30-18 size.
The Rival is only $18.00 more than the R888 in the 315/30-18 size.
12-02-2014, 06:09 PM
#32
Drifting
The goal of "street tire" classes is for people to drive their street cars to the track and compete without bringing anything but a spare or 2. Can you do that with your A7's?
Either way, I'll be running actual street tires for awhile (and in actual street car sizes, none of this 315/335's out front crap). If I lose, so be it.
12-02-2014, 06:13 PM
#33
It is. They just get to run in a different class. Name one person that bought an A6/R6 tire for street driving who doesn't participate in competitive events. Not being allowed to run OEM tires is also a facile argument. Manufacturers put those tires on those cars because it's the easiest way to boost performance figures that go in magazines and online articles that keyboard warriors and bench racers read and eventually translates into sales because just look how much faster this car on 80TW tires miraculously is than this other one one on 200TW tires.
12-02-2014, 06:15 PM
#34
Safety Car
Riiiight, maybe if you live in the desert across the street from the track.
The goal of "street tire" classes is for people to drive their street cars to the track and compete without bringing anything but a spare or 2. Can you do that with your A7's?
Either way, I'll be running actual street tires for awhile (and in actual street car sizes, none of this 315/335's out front crap). If I lose, so be it.
The goal of "street tire" classes is for people to drive their street cars to the track and compete without bringing anything but a spare or 2. Can you do that with your A7's?
Either way, I'll be running actual street tires for awhile (and in actual street car sizes, none of this 315/335's out front crap). If I lose, so be it.
12-02-2014, 06:30 PM
#35
Drifting
I'm debating between running 100 and 200 UTQG tires next year after I burn through my RE-11's. The new R888R and R1R are both contenders. I'll be on 275/40/17 or 255/40/17 all around though so no worries about me ever winning anything
12-02-2014, 06:48 PM
#36
Supporting Vendor
Let's not hash the tire rules, ok? They are what they are, no matter what the lame and short-sighted reasoning is.
As for can you drive Hoosier's? Yeah you can, I have to and from the track, 250 miles at a time plus track time (and on A6's not R6's) with all my camber, etc. Should you daily drive it? No. But then again R888's aren't really "street" tires either, and the Max Performance tires are moving more and more toward R888 type things all the time.
Hoosier is simple building a mousetrap that fit the rules for a DOT, and this is America and they shouldn't be punished for doing what others have done and at times done just as well. It wasn't Hoosier who suddenly escalated this tire thing.
Regardless the 200TW is just today's version of the DOT rule that got us, eventually to Rcomps. It's a somewhat meaningless "measure" of what a tire can do. At least one tire has up and changed from 140 to 200 without so much as changing the tire at all (and said so publicly). I suspect you are about to see a similar move shortly from another company with a 140. Meanwhile BFG claimed they weren't trying to build a dominant race winner (and I applaud them for that), but it's not true either because they were testing new stuff in Lincoln in September.
Folks you are in the midst of a tire war. Street tires aren't easy for anyone who is more than just a casual autocrosser. And those folks, being casual, weren't in it to win before anyway. Yeah, the tires last longer. But the cars are less fun to drive. They aren't cheap tires. And with the rim size changes allowed costs go up even more, and more again as new tires come out, different sizes, etc.
Testing all the possible combinations is almost impossible and super expensive too boot.
The idea was nice. The execution sucks *****. But the SEB, the Emperor of SCCA Solo has new clothes, and they love them. They can't see the forest through the tree they are staring at. They don't want to. I hope like hell SSR meets it's number of 35 total at Nationals (even that's unfair and only applied to us because they want to kill SSR).
As for can you drive Hoosier's? Yeah you can, I have to and from the track, 250 miles at a time plus track time (and on A6's not R6's) with all my camber, etc. Should you daily drive it? No. But then again R888's aren't really "street" tires either, and the Max Performance tires are moving more and more toward R888 type things all the time.
Hoosier is simple building a mousetrap that fit the rules for a DOT, and this is America and they shouldn't be punished for doing what others have done and at times done just as well. It wasn't Hoosier who suddenly escalated this tire thing.
Regardless the 200TW is just today's version of the DOT rule that got us, eventually to Rcomps. It's a somewhat meaningless "measure" of what a tire can do. At least one tire has up and changed from 140 to 200 without so much as changing the tire at all (and said so publicly). I suspect you are about to see a similar move shortly from another company with a 140. Meanwhile BFG claimed they weren't trying to build a dominant race winner (and I applaud them for that), but it's not true either because they were testing new stuff in Lincoln in September.
Folks you are in the midst of a tire war. Street tires aren't easy for anyone who is more than just a casual autocrosser. And those folks, being casual, weren't in it to win before anyway. Yeah, the tires last longer. But the cars are less fun to drive. They aren't cheap tires. And with the rim size changes allowed costs go up even more, and more again as new tires come out, different sizes, etc.
Testing all the possible combinations is almost impossible and super expensive too boot.
The idea was nice. The execution sucks *****. But the SEB, the Emperor of SCCA Solo has new clothes, and they love them. They can't see the forest through the tree they are staring at. They don't want to. I hope like hell SSR meets it's number of 35 total at Nationals (even that's unfair and only applied to us because they want to kill SSR).
12-02-2014, 09:49 PM
#38
Racer
Why should R comps or 100TW be excluded? If its a DOT approved tire, its a street tire.. Period. That cant even be debated. Hell the R888 does pretty good as far as wear goes, we put over 5000 street miles and a few track days on a set and they are mounted on a legit 960whp C5Z.
Rivals are insanely expensive. Price out a 315/18 squared setup once between the Rival and the R888, the R888 is much cheaper and way better of a tire.
Rivals are insanely expensive. Price out a 315/18 squared setup once between the Rival and the R888, the R888 is much cheaper and way better of a tire.
If it says "For competition use only" RIGHT ON THE DARNED SIDEWALL it is not a street tire, regardless if it can pass as a D.O.T. acceptable tire (looking at you, Hoosier).
12-03-2014, 02:36 AM
#40
Sam, do you think it would be better to just go back to any DOT legal tire? Do you think it's possible that some third party would ever validate these tires to ensure some standardized tread wear rating?
There's a group of guys in my local region that all agree to run on Z214, essentially making it a spec tire class. They do it because they're cheaper than the hoosiers and last much longer, even though they give up a bit of speed, it's fair because they all run the same tires. Spec tires are an interesting option but untenable for the number of cars and classes that SCCA has to support.
There's a group of guys in my local region that all agree to run on Z214, essentially making it a spec tire class. They do it because they're cheaper than the hoosiers and last much longer, even though they give up a bit of speed, it's fair because they all run the same tires. Spec tires are an interesting option but untenable for the number of cars and classes that SCCA has to support.