Driving school or track time?
12-26-2014, 01:03 PM
#1
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Driving school or track time?
Been looking at possibly attending a school like Boundrant, Skip or Spring. I got about 20 HPDE events and still consider myself a novice. I've had some really good instructors and enjoy the one on instructions during driving. Those of you that have attended a school know that it is not cheap so wonder if they are worth it (maybe not the right way to word it) or if one would be better off using that money on more driving events? I know there is no replac,net for seat time and practice like anything, but just looking for some opinions.
Also like to hear opinions on the schools listed above or any other in case I do go the school route. Thanks
Also like to hear opinions on the schools listed above or any other in case I do go the school route. Thanks
12-26-2014, 01:36 PM
#2
Instructor
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It's all depends on the instructor. Been driving instructor is like a chef at high end restaurant. Most driving schools sell fast food. I've been doing driving coaching at Nurburgring for five years and my worst student is the student who had been working with another driving instructor before. Most of driving instructors can show basics, that you, probably already know, but only good one can really help.
12-26-2014, 01:41 PM
#3
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
How many instructors at HPDE's are really there to help vs get free track time? Not looking to offend anyone but I have had some not so good ones. Just thinking that a good school would supply good instructors. Maybe the route is to attend advanced school lessons once ready? Thanks
12-26-2014, 01:52 PM
#4
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All the ones you mentioned have a good reputation. Everybody I know who attends one of those schools claims they are great. One big benefit is you are driving somebody else's car.
Where are you located? There are professional driving instructors who will spend time with you at an HPDE and really improve your driving skills. I know a lot of Senior Instructors with the BMW Club have paid Peter Argetsinger to ride with them at the Glen and they all say it was well worth the cost. Last I knew he got $150/hr or $1100/day for instructing you. He has also instructed with the Skip Barber school. I learned a lot just doing a couple of track walks with him.
One of my students who had a few accidents with his Viper (one while I was riding with him) hired Peter for a day to help him regain his confidence. I know GVC BMW Club Chapter and Trackmaster's Driving Schools at Watkins Glen permit him to work with students during their events.
http://kojotesport.com/coaching garage pictures in this link were taken at the Glen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Argetsinger
http://skipbarber.com/instructor/x/
Bill
Where are you located? There are professional driving instructors who will spend time with you at an HPDE and really improve your driving skills. I know a lot of Senior Instructors with the BMW Club have paid Peter Argetsinger to ride with them at the Glen and they all say it was well worth the cost. Last I knew he got $150/hr or $1100/day for instructing you. He has also instructed with the Skip Barber school. I learned a lot just doing a couple of track walks with him.
One of my students who had a few accidents with his Viper (one while I was riding with him) hired Peter for a day to help him regain his confidence. I know GVC BMW Club Chapter and Trackmaster's Driving Schools at Watkins Glen permit him to work with students during their events.
http://kojotesport.com/coaching garage pictures in this link were taken at the Glen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Argetsinger
http://skipbarber.com/instructor/x/
Bill
Last edited by Bill Dearborn; 12-26-2014 at 01:56 PM.
12-26-2014, 01:57 PM
#5
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HPDE instructors are there to help to stray on the track and not to kill yourself, but not to show advanced driving technique. To get advanced school lessons you need to find professional instructor with racing experience. Do some research on the instructors, provided by driving school. Or find one and ask for private driving lessons one to one during any HPDE event.
12-26-2014, 02:09 PM
#7
Melting Slicks
My hunch is in your case with 20 track days you probably know the basics at least consciously and you have the foundation to go faster than you think. Sometimes people keep looking for that special instruction when they already have the tools they need and instead need to focus internally on putting things together. My suggestion is to get video, data, and hire a professional instructor for a full day. Before that day, think about all that you have learned over the past 20 track days and focus on mastering the basics. If you can master the basics you will be faster than 90% of the people out there.
1. Relax behind the wheel and clear your mind
2. Look ahead "eyes up"
3. Smooth inputs with hands and feet
4. Drive a proper racing line
5. Work on trail braking, heel/toe downshift, and back to throttle smoothly.
If you can do those things consistently and perfectly then you will be a very good driver and the speed will come.
For those just starting out I would recommend a professional school where you will learn pretty much everything you need to know in 2-3 days. Then use video and data to improve. Better yet, go through this process with a friend and critique each other along the way. Learn how to analyze data. Using the free DE coaching as a means to improve would be the last thing I would do unless you know and trust the instructor and you feel they are really helping you.
1. Relax behind the wheel and clear your mind
2. Look ahead "eyes up"
3. Smooth inputs with hands and feet
4. Drive a proper racing line
5. Work on trail braking, heel/toe downshift, and back to throttle smoothly.
If you can do those things consistently and perfectly then you will be a very good driver and the speed will come.
For those just starting out I would recommend a professional school where you will learn pretty much everything you need to know in 2-3 days. Then use video and data to improve. Better yet, go through this process with a friend and critique each other along the way. Learn how to analyze data. Using the free DE coaching as a means to improve would be the last thing I would do unless you know and trust the instructor and you feel they are really helping you.
12-26-2014, 04:04 PM
#8
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
I grew up and still very active in intense sports. Things from sky diving, surfing, wake boarding and scuba, etc. and lots of speed adenaline as well, which helps keep me focused and helps with the nerves. I've been all 4 off twice and handled it as expected.
Main things that I believe I need to work on is all around smoothness and then the advanced things like heel/toe and trail braking. Will admit that when shifting I loose smoothness, must be thinking too much.
Main things that I believe I need to work on is all around smoothness and then the advanced things like heel/toe and trail braking. Will admit that when shifting I loose smoothness, must be thinking too much.
12-26-2014, 08:38 PM
#9
Agree with redtopz's comments, but if you can swing Spring Mountain, well worth the cost. Most valuable to me was learning the limits of the car in a safe environment. The various drills highlight braking limits, handling limits, and applying those skills on track. They also teach heel and toe and I was glad I learned in someone else's car! The instruction is top notch and I learned some techniques I use on track and in street driving as well. Best of all, I got to take GS, Z06, ZR1 on track, which was unique. A great bonus was talking to the mechanics to see what they did to keep the cars running despite the hard usage.
12-26-2014, 09:20 PM
#10
Le Mans Master
Bertil Roos is also a school to consider. Challenge is in a single seater there's no one riding with you to see exactly what you're doing.
A good track mate of mine hired the owner of Roos for the day at NJMP T-bolt. By the end of the day he was running almost 2 seconds a lap faster. The price wasn't cheap and I don't recall the cost, but shaving nearly 2 seconds off your time and gaining that confidence seems worth it.
As an instructor, I still have other instructors ride with me to see where I can find some time.
A good track mate of mine hired the owner of Roos for the day at NJMP T-bolt. By the end of the day he was running almost 2 seconds a lap faster. The price wasn't cheap and I don't recall the cost, but shaving nearly 2 seconds off your time and gaining that confidence seems worth it.
As an instructor, I still have other instructors ride with me to see where I can find some time.
12-26-2014, 09:58 PM
#11
Drifting
at 20 days, you should still have an instructor in the right seat, and for the money of a 3 day event you can get up to 12 track days. At your level I suggest sticking with HPDE's and save up for advanced driving school later. You might google Mike Skeen and see what he is up to in the winter. He would be great to give you 1 on 1
Here's some suggestions:
1. stick with one track and do your best to do 4-5 two day events in as short a time as your schedule and wallet permit. When you can call out the turn numbers and corner worker stations, and you have found the line at one track, you can take your skills to other tracks. Otherwise you are always on a steep learning curve. Call them out to your instructor, "turn three apex!", for example. You will probably get back: "nope, too early, the apex is later" Then the next time around you can get closer to the correct turn-in.
2. Get a video camera and video your sessions. Then watch them as much as you can. Then, watch videos of advanced guys on Youtube. You will see where you are missing.
3. Forget about trail braking for the time being you won't gain anything at your level. You should just be learning to throttle steer in certain corners and using throttle lift to help you turn. If you haven't been told how, ask. If your instructor is not telling you how to use these two techniques, then he is probably more worried about your steering and hand techniques. I found as I learned these techniques I would keep TC on and it would tell me by shutting down the car that I wasn't getting proper car rotation. Now, it doesn't matter if it is on or off, I can still rotate the rear of the car with throttle and not activate TC. TC makes the car go nuts in trail braking, and if you learn to trail brake with TC on and not activate it, you are well on your way to using it to your advantage.
4. Heel-toe is not that advanced a technique, and you should be getting it by now. Try breaking it into smaller pieces and doing it on the street. First, just quickly blip the throttle each shift just as you push in the clutch and try to get a 1500 or so rpm increase. Then add braking as you blip and push in the clutch. Then a few days later, incorporate a very crisp downshift to the next lower gear. The problem with learning on the street is you need to get on the brakes as hard as you do on the track to get the same feel and relationship of brake pedal to gas pedal.
5. Find an organization that has the green, yellow and blue doing on- track exercises, like passing exercises, side-by sides and off-line exercises. One of our local clubs does such on-track exercises and they are great learning tools.
6. Be sure to tell your instructor how you learn. Some folks like turn by turn verbal, others hate it. Be honest. Also be honest with yourself. People can only successfully learn and accomplish three actions at a time. So work with your instructor to break your action assignment into smaller sections. When you overdose on inputs, speak up.
Here's some suggestions:
1. stick with one track and do your best to do 4-5 two day events in as short a time as your schedule and wallet permit. When you can call out the turn numbers and corner worker stations, and you have found the line at one track, you can take your skills to other tracks. Otherwise you are always on a steep learning curve. Call them out to your instructor, "turn three apex!", for example. You will probably get back: "nope, too early, the apex is later" Then the next time around you can get closer to the correct turn-in.
2. Get a video camera and video your sessions. Then watch them as much as you can. Then, watch videos of advanced guys on Youtube. You will see where you are missing.
3. Forget about trail braking for the time being you won't gain anything at your level. You should just be learning to throttle steer in certain corners and using throttle lift to help you turn. If you haven't been told how, ask. If your instructor is not telling you how to use these two techniques, then he is probably more worried about your steering and hand techniques. I found as I learned these techniques I would keep TC on and it would tell me by shutting down the car that I wasn't getting proper car rotation. Now, it doesn't matter if it is on or off, I can still rotate the rear of the car with throttle and not activate TC. TC makes the car go nuts in trail braking, and if you learn to trail brake with TC on and not activate it, you are well on your way to using it to your advantage.
4. Heel-toe is not that advanced a technique, and you should be getting it by now. Try breaking it into smaller pieces and doing it on the street. First, just quickly blip the throttle each shift just as you push in the clutch and try to get a 1500 or so rpm increase. Then add braking as you blip and push in the clutch. Then a few days later, incorporate a very crisp downshift to the next lower gear. The problem with learning on the street is you need to get on the brakes as hard as you do on the track to get the same feel and relationship of brake pedal to gas pedal.
5. Find an organization that has the green, yellow and blue doing on- track exercises, like passing exercises, side-by sides and off-line exercises. One of our local clubs does such on-track exercises and they are great learning tools.
6. Be sure to tell your instructor how you learn. Some folks like turn by turn verbal, others hate it. Be honest. Also be honest with yourself. People can only successfully learn and accomplish three actions at a time. So work with your instructor to break your action assignment into smaller sections. When you overdose on inputs, speak up.
12-27-2014, 10:33 AM
#12
Melting Slicks
HPDE instructors are there to help to stray on the track and not to kill yourself, but not to show advanced driving technique. To get advanced school lessons you need to find professional instructor with racing experience. Do some research on the instructors, provided by driving school. Or find one and ask for private driving lessons one to one during any HPDE event.
12-27-2014, 10:48 AM
#13
Melting Slicks
My hunch is in your case with 20 track days you probably know the basics at least consciously and you have the foundation to go faster than you think. Sometimes people keep looking for that special instruction when they already have the tools they need and instead need to focus internally on putting things together. My suggestion is to get video, data, and hire a professional instructor for a full day.
If you can do those things consistently and perfectly then you will be a very good driver and the speed will come.
If you can do those things consistently and perfectly then you will be a very good driver and the speed will come.
But the first thing is to have a pro instructor evaluate the driver, then set a game plan.
It's possible to run 20 events and find out that there things that you need to "un-learn".
Video and data are fine IF the person watching them with the driver knows what they are doing. But a pro in the right seat will give you better feed back.
The schools are good, they've helped some drivers I know that had "no clue".
IIRC though, to get into the advanced courses, you first need to take the introduction courses.
12-27-2014, 12:59 PM
#14
Burning Brakes
Consider riding in the right seat with instructors as often as possible during your HPDE's. To learn quick, most of your time should be spent in the left seat (with someone in the right seat critiquing), in a classroom, or in the right seat with instructors. Add in an AIM Solo DL and start to learn to compare laps and you will see where other drivers are faster and where you can get faster. Invest in an equal passenger seat (to the drivers seat) and harnesses, so that folks will not mind riding there. This is the layman's way to learning as quick as possible.
12-27-2014, 01:47 PM
#15
Safety Car
My hunch is in your case with 20 track days you probably know the basics at least consciously and you have the foundation to go faster than you think. Sometimes people keep looking for that special instruction when they already have the tools they need and instead need to focus internally on putting things together. My suggestion is to get video, data, and hire a professional instructor for a full day. Before that day, think about all that you have learned over the past 20 track days and focus on mastering the basics. If you can master the basics you will be faster than 90% of the people out there.
1. Relax behind the wheel and clear your mind
2. Look ahead "eyes up"
3. Smooth inputs with hands and feet
4. Drive a proper racing line
5. Work on trail braking, heel/toe downshift, and back to throttle smoothly.
If you can do those things consistently and perfectly then you will be a very good driver and the speed will come.
For those just starting out I would recommend a professional school where you will learn pretty much everything you need to know in 2-3 days. Then use video and data to improve. Better yet, go through this process with a friend and critique each other along the way. Learn how to analyze data. Using the free DE coaching as a means to improve would be the last thing I would do unless you know and trust the instructor and you feel they are really helping you.
1. Relax behind the wheel and clear your mind
2. Look ahead "eyes up"
3. Smooth inputs with hands and feet
4. Drive a proper racing line
5. Work on trail braking, heel/toe downshift, and back to throttle smoothly.
If you can do those things consistently and perfectly then you will be a very good driver and the speed will come.
For those just starting out I would recommend a professional school where you will learn pretty much everything you need to know in 2-3 days. Then use video and data to improve. Better yet, go through this process with a friend and critique each other along the way. Learn how to analyze data. Using the free DE coaching as a means to improve would be the last thing I would do unless you know and trust the instructor and you feel they are really helping you.
for the cost of a driving school, you can get an aim solo DL, gopro and do a weekend with a coach for 2-3 days. I'd bet money you will get more out of it than a driving school even though I know some fantastic pro drivers who work for driving schools. Heck, most pro guys will let you split with a friend for the weekend so you can both be coached in different sessions and learn together.
You will not get the same guy in a driving school that you will 1-1. Not only that but you can have the instructor drive in YOUR car and help you with setup, and set laps and have the data from YOUR car forever to shoot for and analyze. He will also teach you how to analyze the data from your particular system. And most times they will take a look at videos after and tell you where you can still improve.
You have to think, driving schools are there for profit. There will be several students there and not 1-1. And you don't get to choose who you end up getting help from. And you are likely in a car that is not exactly set up like your own, and you won't have data to take with you.
Then you can work on it, and hire the same guy down the line and work on more improvements.
Last edited by heavychevy; 12-27-2014 at 01:49 PM.
12-27-2014, 03:07 PM
#16
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Thanks all. I will start filming my runs. Some of the other things I currently do is;
I ride as a passenger with an instructors every outing
I watch you tube videos
I write down things Ina track map. Notes
I will look into private instructions as soon as I pick my next session
I ride as a passenger with an instructors every outing
I watch you tube videos
I write down things Ina track map. Notes
I will look into private instructions as soon as I pick my next session
12-28-2014, 01:50 AM
#17
Drifting
A lot of good suggestions above, and most of them I agree with.
However, if you have run 20 days of HPDE and have not had an advanced instructor yet, you may be running with the wrong group. Next event, get with the chief instructor and make sure you get an advanced one.
An excellent instructor does not have to be an ex-racer. Some of the best instructors I know have never raced. Sure, they need to be advanced drivers, but communication skills are just as important.
If you are willing, let your instructor drive your car a few laps with your communicator on, and ask plenty of questions. Riding in the instructors car may be a much different set-up.
The NCM Motorsports Park in Bowling Green would be a great place for you to get advanced instruction. I would recommend signing up for an event sponsored by either Chin Motorsports or 10/10ths Motorsports. There are many advanced instructors, and they both provide a ton of track time.
You will get exactly what you need, and nothing is more important than seat time.
Good luck.
However, if you have run 20 days of HPDE and have not had an advanced instructor yet, you may be running with the wrong group. Next event, get with the chief instructor and make sure you get an advanced one.
An excellent instructor does not have to be an ex-racer. Some of the best instructors I know have never raced. Sure, they need to be advanced drivers, but communication skills are just as important.
If you are willing, let your instructor drive your car a few laps with your communicator on, and ask plenty of questions. Riding in the instructors car may be a much different set-up.
The NCM Motorsports Park in Bowling Green would be a great place for you to get advanced instruction. I would recommend signing up for an event sponsored by either Chin Motorsports or 10/10ths Motorsports. There are many advanced instructors, and they both provide a ton of track time.
You will get exactly what you need, and nothing is more important than seat time.
Good luck.
12-28-2014, 07:02 AM
#18
Safety Car
Be careful of the order you do things. If you buy a data acquisition first then you're limited to coaches who are familiar with that system. If you hire the coach first then they can help you select a data acquisition system.
Here's an article I did on the whole thing a while back. As far as I'm concerned a good coach is more valuable than all the go fast parts you purchase.
Keep in mind though that an HPDE is not racing. There are some real differences between racing and driving in an HPDE.
Richard Newton
Here's an article I did on the whole thing a while back. As far as I'm concerned a good coach is more valuable than all the go fast parts you purchase.
Keep in mind though that an HPDE is not racing. There are some real differences between racing and driving in an HPDE.
Richard Newton
12-28-2014, 11:58 AM
#19
Pro
My suggestion is get the instruction you need at HPDE events and skip the "Race" schools. You will pay a lot for using a car you are not likely that familiar with (especially true with schools that use formula cars) and the introductory 3 day (or more) courses tend to be targeted to people who have never been on a race track before. Yes most people are thrilled with the "Race" schools but they haven't driven a Corvette on the track have they?
Totally agree that you don't need a race driver to have a good instructor. Wheel to Wheel racing involves tactics, patience and learning how to go fast off line. If you are interested in just going faster, there may be a lot of people who can teach you a lot. Think of it as learning how to qualify well as opposed to outbrake the guy beside you into the next corner.
Totally agree that you don't need a race driver to have a good instructor. Wheel to Wheel racing involves tactics, patience and learning how to go fast off line. If you are interested in just going faster, there may be a lot of people who can teach you a lot. Think of it as learning how to qualify well as opposed to outbrake the guy beside you into the next corner.
12-28-2014, 12:18 PM
#20
Instructor
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My suggestion is get the instruction you need at HPDE events and skip the "Race" schools. You will pay a lot for using a car you are not likely that familiar with (especially true with schools that use formula cars) and the introductory 3 day (or more) courses tend to be targeted to people who have never been on a race track before. Yes most people are thrilled with the "Race" schools but they haven't driven a Corvette on the track have they?
Totally agree that you don't need a race driver to have a good instructor. Wheel to Wheel racing involves tactics, patience and learning how to go fast off line. If you are interested in just going faster, there may be a lot of people who can teach you a lot. Think of it as learning how to qualify well as opposed to outbrake the guy beside you into the next corner.
Totally agree that you don't need a race driver to have a good instructor. Wheel to Wheel racing involves tactics, patience and learning how to go fast off line. If you are interested in just going faster, there may be a lot of people who can teach you a lot. Think of it as learning how to qualify well as opposed to outbrake the guy beside you into the next corner.
Peter Argetsinger, mentioned above, is one of their driving instructors, but I strongly recommend Guy Cosmo(also one of their instructor). Guy also provides one-on-one coaching and private instruction to drivers of all skill levels.
Regarding "outbrake the guy beside you" that is not what a pro instructor will tell you. Most likely "outbrake" will be first in "Not-To-DO" list.