tmtraylor

Dear Track Elders,

As I have been told, it's customary / protocol to provide equivalent level of safety equipment on both sides of the car. Santa was good to me and I now have 6 point harness, race seats and harness bar for both sides of my C5Z. I will be swapping seats with the stock setup when I go to the track. I'm a novice doing HPDEs and will have instructors at new tracks and at times when I need coaching at home at Road Atlanta (never stop learning, right?).

Is a passenger "safer" with the above mentioned gear and without a HANS device? Most of the instructors I see do have a HANS and I don't expect that scenario to be common, but what about a "civilian passenger" that would not have a HANS. Are they better off with the stock seats and factory belt?

Even with the Sparco Evo II Plus on the passenger side, I bet anyone 6'-1" or 2" will not fit, right?

Thanks for sharing the expertise, Happy New Year!!!

Tim

ErnieN85

a hans should only be used with a 5 or 6 point harness.
without a hans harness can be a bad idea as the air bag will not be close enough The stock belts will streach and the air bag will keep your neck from breaking.
as far a safety goes the three point lap and shoulder harness provides about 99% of the safety of full harness & Hans.
now most groups will not alow you to run if you do not have the same equipment for driner and passenger, it is up to your instructor to properly use what you provide

tmtraylor

So I should let the event organizer know that my car will be setup for use with a HANS so they can assign the instructor appropriately. Thanks much !!!

ErnieN85

not really necessary as most groups don't ask what the instructor has
as long as you have the same for both your ok

JeremyGSU

Originally, I started off with both a race seat for myself and any passenger who wanted to ride along. However, I am already an instructor.

I think most instructors prefer "equal" systems but after awhile I preferred a stock seat. I've seen way too many seat setups that are questionable on how the harnesses are run, etc. Getting in you have no idea whether someone setup it up correctly or not. At least with the stock system I know it should work.

Also, when I was giving out rides no one ever had a HANS device and I didn't feel comfortable driving people around without one so I went back to the stock passenger seat with Angel pads.

tmtraylor

Thanks for that perspective, Jeremy! one size does not fit all in this case

smellya

I am nice to my passenger and at least give them a 6 point and a racetech seat. You do have a car that can get stupid pretty damn quick. I would like to walk away and if I have a passenger also the same. I would feel bad if someone got hurt in with me driving.

FAUEE

I'm going to be running two different OMP seats. A WRC on driver's side, and a TRS-E on passenger side. Both FIA rated, both with 6 point harnesses. God to hear running 2 different seats, but of equal safety is OK.

troyguitar

Is that setup (stock seat+belt on one side, race seat+harness+hans on other) actually allowed with most groups? I was under the impression that I have to make both sides the same.

tmtraylor

Sharp setup! I am trying to be "nice" too and provide as safe of an experience as I can for the right side people. The situation where I have heard differing opinions: Is the passenger better off with an OEM setup (seat, 3 pt belts and an airbag) vs. a race seat, 6 point harness and no HANS.

The answer may very well be: "it depends" or different schools of thought so pick one or something else.

I truly appreciate the input!

Hat_Trick_Hokie

Those are the seats I have with custom sliders, and my 6'1" 200lb frame fits in the car just fine. Any taller and you start running out of headroom.

I would advise this. For many organizations they ask about your car and mods, just advise you have the seats and harnesses. I can't imagine you would have a problem finding an instructor at an event with some sort of head-and-neck device on hand.

I was under the same impression.

JeremyGSU

From what I've seen this is more internet hype than what I've experienced in real life.

Organizations that have not had an issue with this:

NASA HPDE 4
Chin Motorsports
Performance Driving Group

I know there are others as well. I also think that unless any passenger has a HANS than a 6-pt setup is more dangerous but that's just my opinion.

I should comment that my car is also a street car and was getting used more on the street so that is another reason I opted to keep the passenger seat in. That an the fact that often my passengers were too large to fit in the race seat.

troyguitar

Good to know, thanks. It sounds like I'm in a similar situation to you with a street car that sees semi-serious track duty (NASA TT/DE4 and some autocross primarily).

I have put a race seat and race wheel in my car this winter and will be adding a harness bar and harness plus all new personal safety gear, but I have been at a loss as to what to do on the passenger side for my car. I also drive mine more on the street than I do on the track and have a passenger more often on the street than on the track, but don't want to end up never being allowed to take a passenger on the track (and at the same time don't really want to blow $1000+ on a 2nd race seat+mounts+harness if it's not needed).

It sounds like I might be safe to just leave the stock passenger seat, belt, and airbag in - which is certainly simple and convenient for me.

smellya

I think they would be safer with the 6 point and 4009 seat. 8 do have a full cage with door bars. Stock seat with 3 point you would get tossed around in my car. I have not had a problem with 3 different instructors. I have ran with different groups in NorCal.

Bill Dearborn

Don't forget racers went many years without HANS devices until a couple of NASCAR drivers were killed in certain types of crashes where the neck was broken. There were a tremendous number of crashes where HANS weren't worn and the neck wasn't broken and where 5 or 6 point restraints and a race seat more than likely saved the driver's life. I don't know how many pre HANS NASCAR races I have seen where some car barrel rolled 7 or 8 times or crashed through a barrier and the driver walked away.

Air bags and stock seat restraints work very well but the government tests are run at 30 mph impact speeds while the insurance institute guys run them at 35. A lot of times impact speeds on the track are much higher. I have seen Z06s head into T10 at the Glen at over 80 mph drift too far out and then over correct and drive hard left into the guardrail on the other side of the track with little slowing. One guy shortened his Z by about 4 ft. I saw a Ford Police car come off T1 at about 50 mph and run headon into the inside guard rail. The driver's head hit the inside mirror since the air bag didn't stop his body from moving diagonally toward the center of the car as it turned hard right and ran into the guardrail.

Don't worry about the HANS. If they have it they may wear it and if they don't they will still be safer as long as the seat and harnesses are installed and adjusted correctly.

I have my harnesses and seat installed correctly but getting them adjusted properly at the track can be a problem and you need to take a lot of things into consideration. Race harnesses are nowhere near as adjustable as stock restraints. The sub belt adjustment is under the seat so the seat has to be removed. When a 110 lb woman gets in the car the belts have to be adjusted to the small body size which may mean rethreading the belt through the mounting buckle tied to the frame. When the 230 lb lard butt gets into the seat the belts have to be lengthened to the limit to fit. A large number of the large butts refuse to tighten the belts correctly since it is uncomfortable. I have pull up lap belts which are more adjustable in a Vette due to space limitations but they have to be set up so the adjusting mechanism is riding inside the seat where it can't catch on the seat pass through. If it catches on that during an incident it will release the belt. Pull down belts don't have that issue but they are really hard to fasten from inside the car especially the inner belt.

I will not give rides to people whose heads touch the roof when they have a helmet on. All it takes is an off road bumpy excursion and they have a broken neck. There is also a limit to the body size you can take in the seat you choose. I have an aluminum race seat with high side bolsters. I had one guy try and get into the seat and he got stuck in it. He was so tight in the seat the belts pushed under him and the sides of the seat bulged outward. Had a hell of a time getting him out.

Bill

troyguitar

As bad as it might sound, I'm more concerned with simply being allowed on the track than having the safest setup possible. I'm of the "drive at your own risk" persuasion generally.

tmtraylor

Wow! Thanks so much for all the information. Getting these seats and belts in is not trivial. Especially getting the adjusters inboard of the seat opening.

Thanks again!!!

Tim

Bill Dearborn

One other important thing that must be done is to make sure the belt ends are wrapped properly through their clips and mounting points. I ran for several years with improperly wrapped belts before my car was inspected by a restraint expert at a track event. He grabbed my shoulder belt and gave a very hard yank on the belt and it pulled right through the clip and came off the harness bar. I hadn't done the final part of the wrap to keep the belt from pulling through the clip. Now that I know what to look for I have seen plenty of people not doing it properly. When I get in a student's car with race harnesses I take a look at how the belts are wrapped to the mounting points. The following link has some good illustrations of how the belts need to be wrapped.

http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/docs/Sc..._Checklist.pdf

Bill

tmtraylor

You're the best Bill, thanks! My belts came with that guide and I am using the training videos on the Schroth website too (very helpful too). I will post a photo of the completed setup tomorrow and would love feedback.

Happy New Year!

Tim

Dan H.

Tim,
Thanks for posting up your pics, heres were I am at and am looking forward to your cliffs notes!

Dan