rfn026

This is a great interview with Mark Hicks. A lot of run with Chin. I didn't realize that I've been with Chin since the beginning. That was in 1999. No wonder I get a little burned out on track events at times.

The good news is that as long as the economy keeps booming they're going to keep expanding. In a hot economy all of have more money give Chin Motorsports. That makes everyone happy.

It's a great interview.

Richard Newton

Corvee

Good pointers by Mark Hicks on the Chin Motorsports format (summarized following):
1) Expanded amount of time available for drivers on the track - enough track time where drivers are not under pressure to get out in the session and take their laps before the session ends because the sessions are long enough that the drivers cans start and stop, get off whenever they want and so that has the effect of taking the burden of deadline from them.
2) Target lower enrollment - there’s fewer total cars participating which reduces track density.

I might add:
1) Scrutiny in placement and observation of participants in run groups to ensure consistent skill and speed resulting in greater satisfaction for all participants.
2)Great instructors

JeremyGSU

Mark is a class act as is Chin Motorsports. I've been tracking with them since 2001 and it's crazy how much this club has grown and interesting to see the changes with it.

Great organization, great club. Couldn't ask for more.

moespeeds

Chins runs a great event. Never overcrowded, great instructors, and the advanced group, is actually stocked with advanced drivers!

TRAK0UT

Agree, great interview and good to see Chin/Mark getting some air time. Mark is a top notch guy and the Chin events are extremely well run. One of the only DE's I instruct with anymore.

BTW...that guy in the white v-neck in the first pic from Rd. ATL looks REAL familiar....

SouthernSon

CHIN has fast cars and good drivers. I ran with them several times a few years back but charging drivers $75 for an instructor, yet, the instructor sees none of that money just goes against my grain. Plus, the instructors pay an annual fee. I have enjoyed several years of instructing with other organizations without those fees.

rbl

Two downsides to Chin, but they are a very good promoter. I instructed for them as well and I agree the annual fee is a scam. Their fees are very high because of low density; however, as a practical matter, most folks can't / won't use that amount of track time which is promoted to substantiate the cost. Additionally, even though their "sold out" is ~ 90 there are an additional 25 instructors which make the cars per group close to 30 and 45 in the advanced. The additional track time is the result of 3 groups instead of 4 or 5 and the open track time after 4 sessions. It is a good schedule but a bit misleading.

Secondly, in addition to the high event cost, adding $75 (used to be $50) to the driver cost for an instructor which is generally mandatory for novice drivers places a burden on the instructor for a LOT of extra time. That person feels, and rightfully so, that the instructor should ride with them in the open track sessions as well as their normal sessions because the paid for the instructor.

Finally, and the one that always tick me, you can not solo a driver without a check ride from another appointed instructor. That seems counter productive. I see the logic, maybe, but if you do not appreciate or trust the instructors ability then why let them instruct in the first place? I would only allow instructors I intend to support and trust. That is not only inconvenient for everyone but it is a slap in the face to the instructor. I have never seen a driver not being solo'd after that ride and I have seen drivers wait a good while to get that ride due to availability of the "appointed" instructor. Additionally, there is not a reasonable way for this cross check ride to serve much purpose as the "appointed" instructor gets only a snapshot of the driver.

That's my 2¢

SouthernSon

A friend and I were discussing the extra charge for the instructor and we both agreed that extra monies for a non profit organization is fine. But, to charge extra for my taking a risk in the right seat to go to the owner's pocket just doesn't seem right to me. I am glad there are other promoters that feel the same way and don't charge extra.

Corvee

A couple of observations: The Chin instructor fee varies per track - at the Texas tracks the fee is $35.00 which is comparable to the fee charged by The Drivers Edge, the other main track day operator in this region. The instructor fee of $75.00 per weekend at some tracks may seem high but Chin carefully screens its instructors so the participant is provided with value in a seasoned instructor - in my opinion the best investment a novice can make to reduce times. A testament to the quality of Chin Instructors - many Intermediate and Advanced students will opt for an instructor for the weekend to "work on things". I use a driving coach. Most serious golfers see the club pro from time to time - does the pro pocket the fee or the club?

Although the registration fee varies by track, the cost of a Chin event is in line with other organizations. In Texas Region, with the exception of COTA, the weekend fees are $300, $335 with instructor. The fees are comparable to the other organizations. The upcoming event at NOLA is also $300 for the weekend - the amount the track charges for their single day test & tune before the NASA weekends. Again it varies by track and some tracks just cost more to rent (i.e COTA, Road Atlanta, Barber, Sebring, VIR). Chin runs most of the major "pro" tracks which cost more than the typical "club" facilities.

At most Chin events , there are three run groups - Novice, Intermediate, and Advanced. The Advanced group is comprised mostly of instructors and truly advanced students. The car count in Advanced is typically less than the other two groups. Total car count is less than other groups - at 3 upcoming Texas events total participants with instructors are as follows: COTA 95, MSR-Houston & TWS (90). Most competitors run 135 to 150 cars during a day! For 3 groups sessions (4 at COTA) that equates to ~ 30 cars. Some participants will not run the entire 30 minute session, but the extended session times allow you run a few laps, come in and make adjustments and go back out. You are not pressed for time if you have a student in the preceding session.

As a Chin Instructor, you are assigned one student per weekend- other track day groups will assign two students which equates to half the weekend in the right seat. The student is allowed to run the Happy Hour session at the end of the day (with their instructor). However, the last Novice session of the day is immediately prior to the Happy Hour and most students want to take a break before going back out. Therefore they typically will run the last 20 minutes or so (if at all). So far, I have only had one student that tried to run both - we ended up having to stop for fuel anyway!

Regarding the check ride process - how can an instructor impartially allow their student to solo without another's evaluation? I am not aware of any group that operates this way. The instructor is required to use their judgment in recommending their students for check-out. However, it is best that an impartial decision be rendered. With Chin, a Chief Instructor is responsible for all check rides. This is to ensure that the student is evaluated by the most experienced instructors. Solo drivers run in Novice (with non-solo students) and Chin runs an "open passing" format in the intermediate as well as the Advanced groups. Therefore it is necessary that the student be placed under greater scrutiny to ensure the safety and enjoyment of all participants. If a student does not pass the check ride (and this does happen) the student and their instructor, are provided with feedback on what areas they need to work on. The check ride evaluation are based on defined criteria and not a "snapshot". However, you can tell within the first couple of laps if they have it or not. All check-outs are scheduled in advance and typically done within a session of the request by one of the chief instructors. Typically there are at least 3 Chiefs at an event so there is no reason for the student to wait.

Chin is not a non-for profit entity (nor is any other operator). With regard to the $50.00 per year membership fee - I have not found anything in motorsports without a cost associated with it. $50 bucks is the cost of one can of race fuel, less than 10% of the cost of either a set of brake pads or one tire . . .

SouthernSon

To say total car count is less than all others is quite an assumption. Personally, the only overcrowding I have found is in Chump Racing. As far as two students per instructors in other groups; well, I have only had two students once in the last three years that I can remember although I have instructed with several different promoters. As rbl stated, I, too, had to wait most of the day on times I advanced in groups when I started with CHIN years ago. NCM is a non-profit organization that does charge passengers for some of their rides at their events. I am only too happy to donate time and money to them. I suppose things may be different in Texas, but these points are, indeed, valid in my experience. It is good for folks to know what else is available in our sport, don't you think? But, in any case, I think the points have been made.

smbstyle

Corvee already summed up the points I was going to follow up on. I just want to add that many national track day providers have an annual membership fee, that's not unusual. Lots of smaller clubs do not.

It's been almost 6 years since you participated in a Chin Motorsports event. Is it a reasonable conclusion that the Chin experience is the same now as then? If you'd like to find out, we'll waive the customary annual renewal if you'd like to return to an upcoming event.

Just shoot me a PM.

-Scott

JeremyGSU

Interesting comments on Chin. I have been with Chin since '02 and I have seen it change a lot. From Novice/Intermediate combined groups to Intermediate/Advanced to 3 separate run groups. I also ran with the group prior to Mark coming along. I feel the events are much more organized and friendly with adding mark to the organization.

I have also been instructing for a number of years now and have also been a Check-Out instructor many times.

Chin events can get crowded. Typically the Novice/Intermediate groups are the most crowded. Red group is usually only crowded the first two sessions of the day. By the afternoon I really feel like Red group is somewhat empty.

As for the fees, I really can't comment. It does seem somewhat expensive but you are paying for an extremely well run event that stays on time and has a ton of track time. When I instruct I typically don't drive every session anymore because I just get tired of being in the car all day and want some down time. It's just too much. In the scheme of track costs, $75 really isn't much. Nor is the annual membership fee. When I ran bike track days with Nesba they also charges annual fees.

As for the comment on the Check-Out instructors, while I understand your comment the point of that is to verify the instructors did their job and the student is ready. As good as Chin's instructors are, there are ones out there that are just there for a free track day. Hate to say it. The other side of the coin is just making sure the driver is ready. Having been a Check-Out many times I have failed students before and so has a friend of mine. Sometimes the student just "panics" and doesn't do well when someone other than the instructor they've had all weekend is in the passenger seat. So if they bomb with me in the car one has to ask themselves are they ready to be on their own? Are they ready to take passengers? You can be sure a lot of the times a student gets signed off their friend they have been dying to give a ride to is the first in the passenger seat.

I've also recommended students to be checked out that came back and failed. I'd ask what happened and they would say they didn't know, or they panicked, etc. Or, they simply couldn't handle the pace. I had a guy not too long ago that was dominating Green Solo and complaining he wasn't Blue. Gave him a Check-Out ride in Blue and he was dead last. Scared to death as people were all over him in the corners. I don't want someone like that on the course by themselves. I'd get them back in their car and it would be like they forgot everything they had just learned. Doesn't happen often but I've had it happen more than once, more than twice over the years.

Anymore, Blue Group in Chin is moving more like Red Group did about 8 years ago. Red Group has gotten very fast. When I tracked in '02-'06 people had more street cars with slicks, etc. Now a lot of the time Red is bombarded with Full Blown race cars. So I don't find it unreasonable to really make sure that Blue Student is ready to run with the Big boys, or any student of that matter.

NealB

My two cents and my experience with two CHIN events.

First, experience level.

I have run two CHIN events in Texas and am registered for a third.

I have run with Driver’s Edge, BMWCCA, and Apex in Texas, and with two other groups in other states. I instruct for Apex and BMWCCA and with the now defunct Texas Driving Experience. About 4600 track miles on my most recent track toy at a half dozen tracks, and several thousand miles in a TDE car at TMS.

Twice I have sent the email asking to be a CHIN instructor, and twice I never heard any response from anyone. So I guess I’m not qualified, and that’s OK, it is their decision. For the fairly small money difference, and especially at the bigger, faster tracks, I’d rather be free to do my thing.

But, their instructor criteria list is somewhat misleading in that it says a successful applicant must have lots of experience at the track they are instructing. At one event last year, I talked to two instructors in the hotel, and neither had ever been to that track. Not saying a good person won’t learn the track quickly, just that their criteria has not always been followed.

I run advanced and so far have not seen a very crowded field. Mostly I think because their schedule in the two events I’ve run place Novice right before Advanced, so Instructors are scrambling to do a quick de brief and get into their cars while I am on my second lap. So driver entry onto the track has been spread out rather than having a big clump enter all at once.

I haven’t seen drivers in Advanced being misplaced and over their heads like I saw in Driver’s Edge events. I choose not to run Driver’s Edge due to that and their car count in groups, just way too many in the two events of theirs I ran.

I like the extra track time at CHIN but don’t always take advantage of the final session. I like their first open session because it lets me see a new track before trying to go fast.

I do plan to run with CHIN again as my schedule permits, because they run some great tracks.

I’m not bothered by their fee structure. I pay yearly dues to SCCA, NCCC, BMWCCA and now CHIN. Apex doesn’t charge an annual fee but does have a higher event fee for Novice due to needing a full time instructor, so they essentially do what CHIN does.

Bottom line, after seeing the pros/cons for any organization putting on an event, you should vote with your wallet. If the CHIN format and fees turn you off, go to another organization

smbstyle

Hey Neal, Scott with Chin here. I'll follow up with you with an email, but I apologize if that Instructor request fell through the cracks, it looks like the time you sent the email we were going through a staff transition in the Texas market.

speedracernc

I have been to several Chin Motorsports run events over the past few years. I have nothing but good things to say. The classroom session are very good for beginners.
The amount of track time you get is almost unmatched with other groups. I have run with Mazda, BMW and Porsche and Chin gives the most track time.
Checkout rides have always run as scheduled and it was easy to get a check out ride. That is vastly different than my experiences with other programs.
There has never been too many cars per session. The only issues are in the green group as people become familiar with a track. There tends to be bunching of cars. That usually improves by the end of the weekend.
The only comment I can make is the groups are getting faster and its very hard to keep up (even in the blue group) unless you are in a high dollar street car or prepped race car.
I have stopped running with other groups since joining Chin.

rfn026

The speed issue is interesting. Over the last few years we've seen some incredibly fast cars at track day events. You can buy a car off the showroom floor that's faster than most of the dedicated race cars.

Ten years ago I was one of the fast guys. Now I'm doing well to keep up with the guys running mid pack. You just learn to point really well.

Richard Newton

speedracernc

I'm well versed in
Pointing people by. I have been running a Honda for the past few years. Recently purchased a c5 vette though and VIR in a few weeks will be my first event with it.