r1owner

I think allowing passengers is a great way to get someone into the sport that might not otherwise be tempted to make the jump.

I see nothing wrong with allowing someone to take a non-driver out as long as management deems the person (driver) capable of doing it.

rfn026

I've been running track days for over 25 years now. The one group you definitely want to avoid is the advanced/instructor group on Sunday afternoon.

That group thinks they're at a race. They really believe they're racing. The carnage is usually greater than in any other group.

Track days are totally different from racing. The only thing they have in common is the surface of the track. Ok, there's also the fact that some people can't spend money fast enough.

Stealing food money from family is more of a car guy thing than a racer thing. Just look at the NCRS cars. They spend money as fast as track junkies.

I generally ask to be placed one group down from my qualification. I really don't like being on the track with a bunch of instructors who have watched too many races on TV.

Richard Newton
The Corvette Lighweight Blog

Boxcar

Here is a video of a driver who is under instruction, but clearly has no to very little track experience. Why is he driving in HPDE2? Why?

Iconic

That stang driver appears drunk. WTF

FASTFATBOY

This is good, I will add, when the student can tell you where the corner worker stations are...from memory. This tells me the student is calm enough to keep the eyes up and look around.

FASTFATBOY

To add, when I started I was bumped into the next group and signed off to solo on the first day also.

05dsom

LOL...braking @1000ft before bus stop

appears to be perfecting the rain-line though

SouthernSon

As an instructor with several different organizations and on several different tracks I can assure you that not only is a solo or advancement recommendation made upon one's ability to drive safely, watch mirrors, know the line and can effect safe passes but also on which track, which group of drivers and the speed of that group that particular weekend. Personally, I don't think anyone should be turned solo for the first time in their track experience on the NCM MSP. It is too technical, not particularly intuitive and has several blind spots. Passing off line is not for the faint of heart in several places, also. If you are running at Putnam Park, I am quite a bit more lenient in advancing a driver. Putnam is simple, very visible and has plenty of runoff room. The two tracks are sort of at opposite ends of the spectrum. However, if you ever have an issue with an instructor that doesn't agree with when you think you should be turned loose, then, by all means, ask the owner of the organization for someone else to evaluate your abilities. I will say there is one organization that comes to mind that won't advance anyone until you have a certain amount of time in a particular group no matter how capable your abilities. I don't run with them anymore.

SouthernSon

I asked the last driver I soloed at VIR to point out the corner worker wearing red suspenders. He finally did on the last lap of the session.

Z06TWT

I have instructed with many organizations and each differs slightly. I agree that Chin does the best job on sign off procedure....if and when they say you are ready then you are. Just don't be that driver who tells the instructor that you want to be signed off solo the first day! Students are always in a rush to drive solo, but I find that keeping an instructor longer is always best. I still like to get input from an instructor even after hundreds of track days.

rfn026

Chin is the premier HPDE company. They set the standards for the industry.

Richard Newton

VatorMan

Well, let's see...last NASA event, we had a 370Z on it's lid in Run group 3 with a Group 1 passenger and a Mustang on it's lid in group 1-with an instructor. Both were novice mistakes in corners that you don't want to make those mistakes.

I teach the line, safety, and flag stations in group 1. As their confidence grows, I add in transition from brake to throttle and dealing with speed/avoidance. Etc... Group 2-I want to see what building blocks I have to work with before even saying a word. I never pass or solo a student unless I was confident that I could run near them and they will be predicable and safe.
Too much attention is paid to being fast on track and not enough to off track recovery and on track dynamics.

VatorMan

Getting a thumbs up and a new solo sticker from Maria is worth celebrating. The test for red group is frikken hard !

rfn026

Red Group is a huge deal with Chin. It should be.

Richard

apex26

Very helpful comments by instructors and organizers. After 12 total track days, just a couple of observations. First, check your ego at the gate. Insecure people who aren't mature enough to realize there are slower cars circulating faster are dangerous because they do hail mary moves, over-drive their skills, won't point by, etc. The hidden curriculum I think instructors are looking for is good judgement and temperament, which takes a thousand forms. Without exception, every instructor I have had has been passionate, and really wants you to learn from them. Two have been fantastic, taking a personal interest, and have become friends. These guys took my son and his buddies under their wings, and now these young men aren't interested in driving fast on the street, but are very skilled and fast on the track. These organizations are great. Hi Moe!

AngryJ

This became a problem in the Novice group I was in at NCM. Particularly a high HP Camaro that would outrun anything in the straights but eventually had a 6 car train behind him and didn't give point bys. After some "coaching", it wasn't a problem in the later run groups. On the opposite end of the spectrum, a white mid 90's Civic was riding about 10 feet from my bumber through a few corners. I waived him by at the next straight and watched him walk away from me in the next few turns. A very well setup and inexpensive track car I'd imagine. I was not aware they allowed all run groups to participate in the last Novice session. I quickly found out with that Civic.

Bill Dearborn

There is a set of guidelines that have been setup to help instructors evaluate performance and to provide some uniformity between instructors so a person who is rated as a novice by one instructor isn't rated as an expert by another. I would say these evaluation criteria are still in the formative stage but are being used by some of the Club oriented HPDEs.

I will attach a PDF copy of the criteria. One thing that I was told in using the criteria is a person doesn't meet a level unless they exhibit the criteria 100% of the time.

Bill

FAUEE

I've yet to understand the fascination with "moving up" asap. Being in the beginner groups means you are guaranteed an instructor, for the same price as a person who doesn't get one! I'd rather be the guy they have to kick out of DE 1, kicking and screaming, than be the guy who rushes to get to DE 2 and would be faster if I spent more time with an instructor, and now to get one I have to hire a private one. Makes no sense to me.

SouthernSon

And you are the guy that will be more advanced in a given amount of track time than the guy/gal that insists upon being turned loose ASAP. Even the better instructors try to make time to ride together. There is a reason professional drivers continue training with coaches. As in aviation, one never learns it all; we simply get better and better while never attaining 100%.

FASTFATBOY

If you are parked behind slower DRIVERS the entire session you aren't learning a thing. You need to be bumped, with the instructor IMO to get in a "like speed" environment.

If I go to a new track or feel like I am "stuck" at one I know I get someone to ride with me and ask what I can do different or better.

Even after I was a solo driver, I did this a bunch. We all see it differently, lots of ways to "skin the cat."