AngryJ

At what point do drivers make the transition from Novice to Intermediate and from Intermediate to Advanced during HPDE events? What skills and knowledge distiguish one group from the next, and how much does car setup and lap pace factor into that decision? I realize seat time is invaluable, but it doesn't seem like "X" number of events is the best way to evaluate which group drivers should be running in, especially when you factor in other driving experience outside of DE.

My biggest takeaways from my first event were learning the drving line, off line passing, driving in traffic, general communicaton between drivers, and identifying the corner signals. I caught myself trail braking a couple times going into turn 10 at NCM which highlighted an area I need to improve. I'd really like to nail the heel/toe braking to avoid disrupting the car during heavy braking and turn in. What areas should I be focusing on to know when I'm ready to advance to the next run group? Seems like being safe and trusted by the other drivers should be the #1 priority.

Thanks in advance

Socko

my take, and I am by no means a pro.

novice is for when you don't know what group you should be in.

Intermediate is for when you aren't having people sneak up on you and you aren't holding people by not pointing them past asap up but still on street tires. When you get to a point that you are not ever being passed in novice and start questioning what group you should be in. As long as your awareness is there its time for a midlevel group imo.

advanced takes more car prep and you should actually be fast on track, and rcomps minimally or you are just going to be holding up too many people.

Like i say i am not a track master but this is sort of my take on how the groups move at a well run track day.

Oh yeah, at a poorly run day, throw this all out the window and run whatever class you want. I do a charity day every year and its freaking terrible. Fully race prepped Miatas running 3:0x's at Road America in every group and not letting people pass. It's a huge *****how!

StreetSpeed

As an instructor, I move my students/solo (and tell them so) when they meet these criteria:

1) You're routinely being held up in the turns by the majority of people in your run group

2) You are fast and courteous with point bys and passing/being passed. Also want to see off line passes to be sure they know to reduce their speeds when entering the turn.

3) You can demonstrate the above with me in the right seat with my mouth shut for the whole session.

There is course minutiae involved but that's the core of what I look for.

Hat_Trick_Hokie

Agree with the post above.

I particularly stress off-line driving when moving people up to advanced run groups that allow passing anywhere on track.

Joshboody

I'm at this decision point now. We have 3 groups, which I'm in beginner with passing only on the straights. The latter 2 groups, you can pass anywhere with courtesy with speed as main difference between them.

I'm now faster than most in my group, but I will be slow when moving up. I only have 6 track days (in 6mo) so far so I'm a little apprehensive, but instructor that rides with me sometimes (and others) are advising it. I think chasing faster drivers could be good for increasing my speed.

jwg2

I'd add one more thing to these; demonstrated comfort with the unexpected. Most novice drivers have their hands full with the basics, so when a flag flies, or a piece of debris appears, they either don't see it or may over react to it. As the novice builds experience their peripheral vision opens up and their comfort level rises, they see flag stands, they can identify when the car in front of them is having an issue, they know when they are having an issue, they know what to do when a red or a black flies. Job #1 is to get home in one piece, I want to be confident that my student has developed enough skill to do that before moving them up a group.

AngryJ

I obviously ran Novice at the 10/10ths NCM event this past weekend as it was my first HPDE. Throughout the 5 sessions, I was passed twice, but made about 25-30 passes. I was caugt in multiple trains of 5 plus cars with guys that would not give a pass signal. None of this detracted from the 1st time experience - I had an amazing time - but it got we wondering when the right time to transition to intermediate would be. After the 3rd session, my instructor gave me permission to drive solo, then gave permission to take a passenger (my wife) on my last session. Does this fall in line with moving to the Intermediate run group soon or should I run a few more events in Novice?

JeremyGSU

Don't get mad at me here but this doesn't sound like the right situation to me at all. Sign off after only 3 sessions on your first day? There is much, much to learn as a novice and it can't be covered in just 3 sessions. Perfect example of why Chin's sign off restrictions are as such.

AngryJ

I would never get mad about feedback like this. I appreciate all this stuff greatly, especially coming from veterans of the sport. This is where I think more along the lines of skills, instincts, and knowledge vs "seat time". I would love the opportunity to drive with instructors from all across the map. That is my best case scenario and I want that criticism. I just feel like my past driving experience may have helped me pick these things up at a faster pace. I have a video of my 4th session, which was my first solo session if you have any interest to watch it. Again, I'm looking for the criticism so I can get better.

harrydirty

Which is why I personally delayed moving up even though others thought I was fast enough and could do the passes well and courteously. It's all about personal comfort level and I thought it's better to be conservative; I was still having fun in the novice and intermediate groups and it's a real challenge to figure out how to safely pass or make yourself seen so I can get a point by. That was my process over the years and now I instruct and run Advanced groups and never have regretted delaying moving up until I was perfectly comfortable. I always tell students it's a real boost to the ego when you're pushed into the next group (rather than get pulled back!).

RDnomorecobra

Passenger? What club is this with?

Not entirely uncommon to be moved up one level after a day or just a few days, but usually will stay at intermediate for a bit and still have an instructor. I believe you when you say you were among quickest in your group, but go slow and absorb everything. Ask for different instructors. Go for rides in their cars. Lots to pick up and work on other than the textbook line. And its all relative, man. You'll go to events where you're among the fastest, then when you least expect it you'll get eaten alive. It's all good and a chance to learn. BTW, following someone faster can be a learning experience but don't fixate on him/her. Good reason to have an instructor in right seat to explain why.

AngryJ

I do wish I could have driven with a couple different instructors, but how do I ask without offending my current instructor? The guy I rode with was very knowledgeable and helpfull, but it would have been nice to get a couple different perspectives. I also rode with him in a GT3 in the advance group, which was very beneficial. The solo session did wonders for me as I was able to process everything internally without focusing on instructions. I was more consistent and my focus went soley to my surroundings without having to think about input from the instructor. It was great to have that opportunity, but I realize how valuable the instruction is.

The only faster car I had a chance to follow was a silver C6 Z06, but we quickly got caught in a train for 2 full laps with no passing signals. Eventually he decided to pit and then session ended The real gem was going back and forth with a white GT3. This was my 2nd session and I started slow to focus on the line. I was in front then let him pass. Followed closesly for a couple laps and eventually he let me pass. I was able to slowly walk away from him after that. The smile on my face is one I'm sure everyone in this forum has experienced.

StreetSpeed

And to allow a passenger. No good.

jwg2

I followed a similar path. Parades are less fun than WOT, but at the novice level I was never sure if I was passing other folks because I was getting better or they weren't. I turned lots of laps in the entry level groups, built up my confidence, got relaxed on the track, got exposure to lots of instructors, got exposure to multiple tracks, worked on improving my cockpit habits (though I still catch myself propping on the armrest), explored the limits of my vehicle, reviewed my videos for places I needed improvement, and experienced a few "offs". Eventually, I didn't have to ask, more than one instructor told me I was ready and I advanced.

RDnomorecobra

I didn't necessarily mean ask for more instructors on the same day, although you can ask for rides from as many as you have time for.

AngryJ

Believe me when I say there was some resistance. The troubling part of it all was that the FAQ on their website states this: "You can have a passenger but they must sign the track waiver, wear an appropriate helmet and seatbelt / harness.

Riders must be at least 18 years of age.

All passengers ride at their own risk. If you have a 4 wheel off while driving with a passenger, you will be brought into the pits to get checked out for safety etc."

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It didn't say anything about passengers being restricted to Int/Adv run groups. That is the only reason my wife made the trip with me and sat in a parking lot all day with no view of the track. She wanted to ride with me in our car. She didn't want to ride with an instructor for various reasons. When I asked if I could have a passenger, they immediately said no, so I asked them to make sure that is updated on their website. Eventually, they put me under a microscope in my 3rd and 4th sessions before giving approval to have a passenger for the last session. She ended up riding with me for only 3 laps before getting a little green in the gills.

StreetSpeed

Hey man you can do whatever you want. Not saying you did anything wrong. Just saying any group that will let you give rides your first day on a track is, well, an odd group.

harrydirty

This is really common.......even the head instructor got sick when I was getting checked out for instructor........or maybe it's my driving?

Anyhoo, my most memorable "green" story is my third track day with my "new" c6z and I gave the Thunderhill gate attendant a ride. After a few laps he got really quiet, so I pulled into the paddock and as soon as I stopped, he fumbled with the door button, jumped out, ripped off his helmet, and projectile vomited into a 55-gallon trash barrel. I thanked him profusely for saving my pristine interior from a horrible fate (and cutting my track day short).

C5 Hardtop

I'm not an instructor, but have extensive lapping experience with clubs and companies in 4 vettes (2 C5, 2 C6) and an LS1 camaro through 7 years. I also spent time with mentors and paid for coaching & mentoring.

Ask the group you are running with what guidelines they use for placing people and requirements for moving people around, keeping in mind the guide above and listening to yourself on what makes sense. I suggest this because the rules can be too relaxed with some groups/companies where they suck at placing people in groups, suck at keeping people honest, want to bend the rules to get people coming back and so on.

AngryJ

Are the rules based on number of track days or based on ability? Are those two qualities considered interdepent?