nolimits

What pads have been used successfully on ZR1 ceramic rotors? For heavy use in HPDEs.

Thanks in advance

UrbanKnight

Honestly, stock still seems to be the best option offered...

I keep trying to change pads, and keep getting talked out of it as nothing really performs any better (some actually worse)

skxf430

Hit up Mikymu and Werks, as they have done a lot testing with various brake pads and compounds.

nolimits

Have you tried Carbotech 12 & 10s or what others? What works best with OEMs, just more pedal pressure needed than with other rotors/pads?

That may sound silly but braking now feels less effective than the Hawk+ and DBAs I had on a track C6ZO6. In fairness the ZR1 has just been broken in and needs burnishing. I had found a garage queen with 1200 miles on it.

nolimits

thanks, will do

BEZ06

I have only used the stock pads, and I find them VERY good!!

I use Hawk DTC 70/60 or Carbotech XP12/10 on my C6 Z06 with cast iron rotors (mostly the Carbotechs with DBAs) and they work very well.

However, the stock ZR1 pads/rotors work way better!!

Butt.....you MUST burnish them properly!!!!

Go out and do your 50 stops - it only takes about 10 minutes. That will get your stock pads outgassed and working properly.

I imagine you've already swapped out the stock DOT 3 brake fluid for a good DOT 4. Putting in some Motul or Castrol SRF is a MUST as well!!

.

nolimits

DOT 4 in, break-in just finishing. Burnishing, trans/diff fluids are next. Camber, T-1 sways and Cup 2s coming. Also just bought some 12/10's. Do you think the 12/10's are likely no better than stock pads with the ZR ceramic rotors?

jvp

I'd strongly encourage that you do the street burnishing of the OEM pads, and then throw your first track session away in the morning and do the track burnishing as outlined in the owners manual. Park the car when you're done. After you've done all of that, drive the car on the track like you normally would. If you still have your eyeballs in your head after braking, then start looking at pad replacements.

The OEM pads really are that good. But they have to be properly seasoned before using them on the track.

nolimits

Ok thanks, good info all.

Werks

Lol, I see they got you to fall for it with all of the for sale posts that companies selling those pads are putting up all over this site. Once you try out the Carbothec 12's please report back and let me know how they work. Word of warning though, to date I've tested just about every iron rotor pad that I could find that fits our caliper (so now about 7x different pad manufacturers and/or compounds) in addition to working with a brake company to do on track testing for them to try and develop CCM pads and on track every single pad I tested has failed. The issue is that CCM rotors generate significantly higher temperatures than iron rotors, so with track use under repeated braking the rotors will exceed the maximum temperature of the bonding agent used to hold together the powdered friction materials (used during the production process when the powders are mixed and then pressed into the shape of the actual friction pad that contacts the rotor surface). When that happens the pad material in contact with the rotor surface will basically start falling apart and turning into dust resulting in the pedal going soft, a complete loss of braking force and increadibly rapid pad wear (as in you can lose 1/2 or more of the pad thickness in a single braking zone). The major danger though is that this issue usually raises it's head in high speed, extended braking zones i.e. at the end of the straight where you are decelerating from say 140+ down to 90mph going into a sweeper and on the brakes for several seconds. When it does happen it basically results in a complete loss of braking force so you push the pedal down, the cars starts to slow then the pedal just goes to the floor and your car stops slowing down lol. Needless to say it can be quite an entertaining experience

So ultimately heat is the culprit of these failures and how much heat you generate is going to be dependant on how hard you push the car and how fast of a driver you are. So no offence to anyone but if you are slow and using your brakes sparingly then they may work, pick up the pace and you are playing with fire imho. I should also note that I run spindle ducts on my car for additional cooling with the LG GT2 front splitter which has brake cooling intakes that are probably 3x larger than the ones on the ZR1 stock splitter. So I have quite a bit of additional brake cooling, if your car does not then I would expect the issue that I described above to raise it's head sooner. Again though I have not tried the Carbotech pads but I have tested pads like the Hawk DTC 70's which are their top end racing compound rated up to 1600F and as mentioned I killed them. The only viable product that I have found for CCM use is the Endless W007 compound brake pads. They offer supperior intial bite over OEM but less modulation. Wear is better than OEM (I get about 2 more track days out of a set) but cost is astronomical at $1100 a set for fronts pads and $700 a set for rears (so $1800 a car set of pads!). So it is very difficult to justify that expense over OEM.

Frankly after 4+ years of running CCM rotors on track and playing around with this stuff the entire time the quest for viable alternative CCM pads for track use has been a rather frustrating (and dangerous) experience lol. It has however become a bit of an obsession to me and as this is still a niche type product and a relatively new technology it is going to take time for people to figure this stuff out. I'm working on a few things now that I can't get into yet but I think show great promis and if things do work out the way that I think they will we should have tested and proven line of dedicated and purpose built CCM related brake pads available fairly soon! Something that I really look forward to so that people (like me) no longer have to be the guinea pig on track testing this stuff for companies that seemingly are unable or unwilling to do their own testing and development.

nolimits

No falling here, due diligence being done. Saw your previous posts on this subject, appreciated and understood. I listen to all and make my own decisions. Thanks.

KNS says they have customers using them on track and there is incremental benefit. Not sure what the wear characteristics might be on ceramics though. I'm on the fence still and may return them. Some C7Z users apparently too.

jvp

No offense to KNS, but they're a retailer not a pad maker. They're just reselling stuff and neither have the expertise nor equipment to do proper testing. Any time Werks has taken them to task on their claims regarding pads for the CCMs, they back down a bit. That might sound like I'm taking a swipe at them, but it's not meant that way. It's more a warning to be very wary of the things you read from retailers. They have all the best intentions in mind, but some of them don't have the requisite experience.

Werks

What JVP mentioned is true. I have no bone to pick in all of this as my this stuff is a hobby for me and not a business. My quest has allways just simply been to find a better set of pads than OEM to use and franky it's been a complete pain in the behind to do so. What should have required a simple telephone call to some brake company has turned into 4 years of mesing around with stuff! I've gone from just buying everything that I could find to see if it may work to trying to partner up with a brake company that is trying to develop products for CCM use so that I could help with testing all with next to no sucess.

In regards to the XP12/10 use on track I have to date found 1 person that used them (and I'm also active on all of the Ferrari, Porsche and GTR forums) with CCM rotors. That person runs at my local track and I'm in no ways knocking anyones skill level but when that person reports that the pads work turning lap times at that track in the over 2 minutes a lap range when we (me, Mikymu, R1Robert) are regularly turning sub 2 minute laps (as in 11 seconds a lap faster) that to me is not a test. That is me putting around on the first lap out warming up my tires! Any brake pad will stop a car with CCM rotors when you press the pedal when cold. Drive on the street and any brake pad will work, you simply are not getting the rotors hot. Track the car and the faster you go, the more heat the rotors generate and the more likely a pad issues is going to start to rear it's head!

I do not go to track days to drive slow, I go to track days to push my self and my car and when I'm doing so trust me when I say this but the last thing that you want to worry about (which I experience every time when testing pads) is when you are blasting down a short straight at 130mph and about to hit the brake pedal to go into a 50mph hairpin corner is if your brakes are actually going to work or if your pedal is just going to go to the floor and you are going to have a split second to figure out a way to save your self and your car from destruction because you pads are turning into dust. It's not a fun feeling not knowing if your brake are actually going to work and if you think about it, it is also extremely dangerous especially for less experienced drivers who may not have the skill or experience to deal with a situation like that.

That is why I do not take a cavalier attitude to any of this and I'm allways trying to pin people down on claims that their products work and why I'm always asking for detail. It's not because I want to be a ***** for lack of better words but to save people from having to go through that. My buddy that I track with (Mikymu) is often out following me when I'm testing to see if my car is starting to smoke under braking (emitting excessive brake dust due to the bonding agent failing as I mentioned) and he thinks that I'm absolutely crazy for doing this stuff! At the end of the day though I know what I'm doing, I know what to expect if the pads fail, I'm progressively building up my speed and brake usage and I'm allways allowing my self just a little bit of wiggle room to get me out of a bind if something does go wrong. If I went out there with the "oh don't worry these things work great" mentality that I see some people portraying that sell this stuff I would probably not be typing this because I would have been dead several times over by now.

So again take what you want from my comments, just know what you are potentially getting into when you head out on track and be smart about how you do things out there. There is nothing wrong with trying stuff, I obviously do it all the time. My concern is the temperature rating is only 200f higher than the DTC-70's that I cooked. I hope the pads do indeed work properly so if you do run them please do report back to us on things and give us some detail about your experience and also some track data and lap times so that we can reference it to the times that others turn so that we can guage how hard you were pushing the car (and hence the brakes).

nolimits

So true a vendors word must be taken in context. For reference, advanced racing/instructor groups, 30+ years, best vette lap times on our local tracks I know of (there's always someone faster at some point as we all know). I've run Ferraris and other cars too. The car will be utilized beyond limits. Nuff said. This thread is all about my concern and quest too, knowing temp ratings for 12/10s. If I run them I will likely wait for more input from other users first but will report back. It's these discussions that potentially save lives, all good, thanks.

Werks

Not a problem, I'm advanced/instructor level also so we are both at the level where we are pushing the car. You obviously have the skill needed to test this stuff and hopefully what I wrote will give you a better understanding of what to expect and/or what to watch out for. Again not trying to be a fear monger or scare anyone off just want to make sure that if a person goes down this road they do so with eye's open. If you do run them on track the first indication of a problem will be a decrease in pedal firmness and reduction in braking force. If you continue on the pedal will start dropping further and ultimately you will loose all braking force and back in pits you will notice the entire side of the car is covered in brake dust (basically you will be wearing your pads on the side of your car lol). Just build up speed slowly on track, brake early and harder than needed as you build up speed to try and tax the brakes more than normal while still going slow enough to give you some advance warning if you are going to have issues. If everything seems ok start building up to something close to race pace again braking early and start moving your braking point closer to normal in steps each lasp. Again another way of progressively and safely increasing brake utilization while allowing you the maximum amount of warning should something go wrong. As mentioned if you do run the pads please report back

nolimits

Agree, I'd definitely progress and leave extra room/insurance in case things degrade.

nolimits

Ok so it's broken in. I learned what burnishing correctly is like. If someone asks, it's simple ..., burnishing = causing progressive simulated brake failure ! Lot's of fun, the smoke has cleared, the pedal is up off near the floor, it doesn't smell like burning brakes, and they now stop like one would expect. Even got the track part of the process done, out on the "farm" officer so to speak. Maybe the 12/10's will wait for steel rotors.

Werks

Cool! If you are going to pull the pads could you please take a measurement of the front pad thickness after burnishing?

nolimits

Will be taking a look when new wheels/tires, T1s, etc arrive. Pads will probably stay in though, no mic either. Probably should get one, I'm going to need a better way to watch the ceramics rather than the ole eyeball of the past steels. Any idea how many sessions or whatever everyone gets out of OEM rotors/pads?

Looking forward to getting on in a couple weeks

UrbanKnight

General rule of thumb is that rotors will need replaced every 5 or so sets of pads as they become under minimum weight.

That said- I got my car with 4000 miles on it, and some track time. Pads were at 75% front and rear.

I now have 6600 miles on the car. 14 or so track days, and the fronts are just under 50%, rears at 25%. Abs I run Sebring and Daytona. Couldn't be happier with pad life.