Compensating for no Heel Toe
07-18-2015, 11:32 PM
#1
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Compensating for no Heel Toe
I am an intermediate HPDE driver, newly certified to solo. My car is a stock 1993 LT1 Corvette, Z07, 6 psd, on street tires.
I know that I need to learn to heel toe shift, but that is currently not in my skill set. So, as a result, I find myself losing ground to others tracking out of most curves for which a downshift was required on corner entry ( such as turn 10 Pitt north, or turn 1 Summit Point main.
I am usually downshifting to 3rd approaching these curves. Until I learn Heal Toe, should I try downshifting to 2nd to compensate and dig out of the curve quicker?
My concern with that is that it may exacerbate my inability to manage RPM in that situation. That is to say that I am going too fast for 2nd, and without the ability to rev match properly, I will need to slow down even more to get into second.
Obviously learning Heel Toe is the long term solution. Is there a good short term alternative?
I know that I need to learn to heel toe shift, but that is currently not in my skill set. So, as a result, I find myself losing ground to others tracking out of most curves for which a downshift was required on corner entry ( such as turn 10 Pitt north, or turn 1 Summit Point main.
I am usually downshifting to 3rd approaching these curves. Until I learn Heal Toe, should I try downshifting to 2nd to compensate and dig out of the curve quicker?
My concern with that is that it may exacerbate my inability to manage RPM in that situation. That is to say that I am going too fast for 2nd, and without the ability to rev match properly, I will need to slow down even more to get into second.
Obviously learning Heel Toe is the long term solution. Is there a good short term alternative?
07-18-2015, 11:54 PM
#2
Racer
Well the good news is your car has lots of torque, you can just leave it in 4th the whole way around... or..... do your braking first, then downshift before your turn in as to not yank the back end of the car around when you let out of the clutch .... or...
Learn how to rev match.
What is holding you back from doing so? Do you do it on the street? My dad had a 4th gen vette, so I know the peddles are not placed great from the factory. Is that the issue?
You need to learn on the street, and be comfortable at street speeds before you will find your com for zone on the track. Even as a yellow group guy, you still are learning to make all the other skills second nature. So adding in something stressful like heel to into the mix isn't going to help.
Sit in your car with the engine off and practice it. Then fire up the engine, leave the trans in neutral and practice the mechanics of the action with your feet. When you blip the gas it should just bounce up to like 2500 (from idle). Play around with getting your feet used to it and gaining some muscle memory. Once you have that down, parking lot time! Practice there until it feels good.
My only car/track car is a stick (and has been for 20 years now, no not the same car
) and I'm lucky enough that the peddle placement is IDEAL for rev match downshifts (bmw). It has a hinged gas peddle, and the placement and brake peddle height works so well. It's just a habit for me, it feels as odd to me NOT to heel toe as it does for you to do it after all these years. Might be why my 10 year old, 165,000 mile e90 330i has a gear box that feels as sweet as the day I got it.
Cliff notes, you have to learn in a way that works for you. Otherwise that one skill will hold you back in your development on track. When you get it, you'll be super pumped about it.
It's why guys like us are snobs about manual transmissions and turn our noses at track cars missing the 3rd peddle!
Enjoy.
Learn how to rev match.
What is holding you back from doing so? Do you do it on the street? My dad had a 4th gen vette, so I know the peddles are not placed great from the factory. Is that the issue?
You need to learn on the street, and be comfortable at street speeds before you will find your com for zone on the track. Even as a yellow group guy, you still are learning to make all the other skills second nature. So adding in something stressful like heel to into the mix isn't going to help.
Sit in your car with the engine off and practice it. Then fire up the engine, leave the trans in neutral and practice the mechanics of the action with your feet. When you blip the gas it should just bounce up to like 2500 (from idle). Play around with getting your feet used to it and gaining some muscle memory. Once you have that down, parking lot time! Practice there until it feels good.
My only car/track car is a stick (and has been for 20 years now, no not the same car
) and I'm lucky enough that the peddle placement is IDEAL for rev match downshifts (bmw). It has a hinged gas peddle, and the placement and brake peddle height works so well. It's just a habit for me, it feels as odd to me NOT to heel toe as it does for you to do it after all these years. Might be why my 10 year old, 165,000 mile e90 330i has a gear box that feels as sweet as the day I got it.Cliff notes, you have to learn in a way that works for you. Otherwise that one skill will hold you back in your development on track. When you get it, you'll be super pumped about it.
It's why guys like us are snobs about manual transmissions and turn our noses at track cars missing the 3rd peddle!
Enjoy.
07-19-2015, 07:06 AM
#3
Pro
Everything said above is truth. My dad doesn't heel-toe in his C6. He does brake-blip-back to brake and it's ridiculous. If anything he should just brake hard and let the clutch out slowly so as not to lock up the rear tires. I rode with him last week at The Glen trying to get him to change his ways. I got some data of him driving the car and my brother driving his car (also an in instructor) I think I've finally convinced him that he needs to do SOMETHING different.
I made a little sheet to show him the differences (came out small but you can get the gist). All the "1." events are braking into T1 at WGI Short Course. You can see in the Longitude Gs that he brakes, let's up to blip, and brakes again. That takes him about 200 feet or so. You can see his speed trace with 2 bumps where his decel rate stops diving, then dives again at the end. Lastly "2." shows he gives up .3 to my bro before he even turns the wheel.
Moral of the story, either learn to heel/toe or just don't do what he does!
[/URL]
I made a little sheet to show him the differences (came out small but you can get the gist). All the "1." events are braking into T1 at WGI Short Course. You can see in the Longitude Gs that he brakes, let's up to blip, and brakes again. That takes him about 200 feet or so. You can see his speed trace with 2 bumps where his decel rate stops diving, then dives again at the end. Lastly "2." shows he gives up .3 to my bro before he even turns the wheel.
Moral of the story, either learn to heel/toe or just don't do what he does!
[/URL]
Last edited by StreetSpeed; 07-19-2015 at 07:09 AM.
07-19-2015, 07:53 AM
#4
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
My braking is good. And I am able to change gears near the end of the braking so as to not upset the car by clutching too soon (ask me how I learned that). I am completing braking and changing gears and releasing clutch all at the same time. Just losing valuable RPM while doing so.
If it is a particularly slow curve I may go into 3rd and release the clutch while still braking (all in straight line prior to turn in - no trail braking), but only if RPM s are low enough; I seldom chirp the tires or engine brake.
If it is a particularly slow curve I may go into 3rd and release the clutch while still braking (all in straight line prior to turn in - no trail braking), but only if RPM s are low enough; I seldom chirp the tires or engine brake.
Last edited by emptnest; 07-19-2015 at 08:02 AM.
07-19-2015, 08:50 AM
#5
Drifting
I have tracked for years and I cannot heel/toe on the street but can easily do it at the track. I find that I am not on the brakes long enough or hard enough to be able to heel toe on the street. So dont feel too bad if you can't do it on the street.
07-19-2015, 10:06 AM
#6
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The rhythm at speed makes things sync so much easier. I first tried it at T1 Road Atlanta. Synced perfectly and I have been doing it ever since. I find the pedals in my C4 really close with the brake and clutch yet farther away with brake and throttle than in my C5. I find the C5 much easier but I do have the elite engineering offset pedal for the throttle. If I had to do it again, I wouldn't get the largest pedal offset, the medium would have been much better for my size 9's.I would caution you that brake/blip in a C4 can (and sometimes does) break the plastic throttle pedal mount because of the sideways pressure. It is a very weak link in the accelerator setup. I was able to get an aftermarket aluminum piece for mine before the guy that made them passed away. Be sure to carry an extra with you to the track.
Last edited by SouthernSon; 07-19-2015 at 10:20 AM.
07-19-2015, 10:37 AM
#7
1st thing to do for a new heel toe'er is to have someone else who can do it well make sure your pedals are set up well for it. When you learn to HT you can do it in anything. When you are learnING HT having a well suited car really helps shorten the learning time.
07-19-2015, 11:24 AM
#8
Melting Slicks
There are a number of driving "good habits" that you can practice and learn on the street and these will translate over to your track driving.
Heel and toe is of course one of them. If you are coasting down and not in traffic, you can do a lot of you slowing down with engine braking and you'll get the mechanics of it down and learn how not to upset the car when you are doing it, And yes, it's a bit different when you are doing it on the track, but if you do it a lot it will become second nature and it will be just happen on the track without thinking about it.
Other things like learning to not to saw on the wheel and do your turn in and transition to steady state in one smooth motion is another thing you can do on the street every day. The idea being to look ahead, turn the wheel smoothly to the position where you think the car will execute the turn and just hold it there and see where it goes (obviously you'll have to correct it at first) and as you learn to do that you'll eventually get to the point where you will smoothly turn in just once and have the car turn in and then not saw on the wheel.
Another thing is to learn to smoothly roll onto the throttle just past the apex and get the feel of how the car accelerates out of the corner.
There are probably a lot of other things that we do on the track that carries over and can be practiced on the street, you just aren't doing it at the limit on the street, but that doesn't mean that you can't practice it every time you drive and, as noted above much of this is "muscle memory" thing. If you get it down to the point where it is natural on the street, you won't have to think about it when you are doing it on the track.
Heel and toe is of course one of them. If you are coasting down and not in traffic, you can do a lot of you slowing down with engine braking and you'll get the mechanics of it down and learn how not to upset the car when you are doing it, And yes, it's a bit different when you are doing it on the track, but if you do it a lot it will become second nature and it will be just happen on the track without thinking about it.
Other things like learning to not to saw on the wheel and do your turn in and transition to steady state in one smooth motion is another thing you can do on the street every day. The idea being to look ahead, turn the wheel smoothly to the position where you think the car will execute the turn and just hold it there and see where it goes (obviously you'll have to correct it at first) and as you learn to do that you'll eventually get to the point where you will smoothly turn in just once and have the car turn in and then not saw on the wheel.
Another thing is to learn to smoothly roll onto the throttle just past the apex and get the feel of how the car accelerates out of the corner.
There are probably a lot of other things that we do on the track that carries over and can be practiced on the street, you just aren't doing it at the limit on the street, but that doesn't mean that you can't practice it every time you drive and, as noted above much of this is "muscle memory" thing. If you get it down to the point where it is natural on the street, you won't have to think about it when you are doing it on the track.
Last edited by Solofast; 07-19-2015 at 11:27 AM.
07-19-2015, 11:28 AM
#9
Melting Slicks
I am an intermediate HPDE driver, newly certified to solo. My car is a stock 1993 LT1 Corvette, Z07, 6 psd, on street tires.
I know that I need to learn to heel toe shift, but that is currently not in my skill set. So, as a result, I find myself losing ground to others tracking out of most curves for which a downshift was required on corner entry ( such as turn 10 Pitt north, or turn 1 Summit Point main.
I am usually downshifting to 3rd approaching these curves. Until I learn Heal Toe, should I try downshifting to 2nd to compensate and dig out of the curve quicker?
My concern with that is that it may exacerbate my inability to manage RPM in that situation. That is to say that I am going too fast for 2nd, and without the ability to rev match properly, I will need to slow down even more to get into second.
Obviously learning Heel Toe is the long term solution. Is there a good short term alternative?
I know that I need to learn to heel toe shift, but that is currently not in my skill set. So, as a result, I find myself losing ground to others tracking out of most curves for which a downshift was required on corner entry ( such as turn 10 Pitt north, or turn 1 Summit Point main.
I am usually downshifting to 3rd approaching these curves. Until I learn Heal Toe, should I try downshifting to 2nd to compensate and dig out of the curve quicker?
My concern with that is that it may exacerbate my inability to manage RPM in that situation. That is to say that I am going too fast for 2nd, and without the ability to rev match properly, I will need to slow down even more to get into second.
Obviously learning Heel Toe is the long term solution. Is there a good short term alternative?
Do you drive the 93 on the street? The track is not the place to learn H & T.
Your 93 is one of the easiest cars to H & T in and the pedals are in good positions even to the point of doing normal street braking (lighter application) while H & T'ing.
I've taught a lot of drivers how to H & T.
The easy to learn is to start out using only the 6th-5th and 5th to 4th downshifts on the street. These are extremely easy gears to use and you can practice doing it on a straight road where you don't have to worry about corner entry.
Once you get the rev match smooth in these gears, you can move on to 4th to 3rd with corner entry. Learn the technique first then, take that to the track.
I drive a 92 to do this instruction and I unconsciously H & T it a lot on the street.
07-19-2015, 01:13 PM
#11
Instructor
Damn computers
Here I go again... don't heel and toe.....
Brakes slow the car down, not the gears.
In the "neutral zone" make the change to the proper gear, accelerate out.
You are told to be very smooth and not be "sawing" the steering wheel.
You are told be slow and smooth on the acceleration out of a corner.
You are told to brake to the point of wheel skid or ABS lockup.
And yet, with your foot at the brake point of wheel skid, you are supposed to rock your braking foot over to the gas, just enough to raise the revs a "certain" amount, push the clutch in, move the shifter, release the clutch, then release the brake and "smoothly" get on the gas without upsetting the car.
You know by that description, it can't be done.
Now there are people who are very good at the "heel and toe", and they will and should continue to do it.
Before I started sticking my neck out in this "heel and toe" conversation I interviewed professional instructors and each agreed that there is something lost in total braking, the movement from brake to gas and the release of the brake.
I decided there had to be a better way.
07-19-2015, 01:34 PM
#12
jtmck;1590083464]Yes,
Damn computers
Here I go again... don't heel and toe.....
Brakes slow the car down, not the gears.
In the "neutral zone" make the change to the proper gear, accelerate out.
You are told to be very smooth and not be "sawing" the steering wheel.
You are told be slow and smooth on the acceleration out of a corner.
You are told to brake to the point of wheel skid or ABS lockup.
And yet, with your foot at the brake point of wheel skid, you are supposed to rock your braking foot over to the gas, just enough to raise the revs a "certain" amount, push the clutch in, move the shifter, release the clutch, then release the brake and "smoothly" get on the gas without upsetting the car.
You know by that description, it can't be done.
Now there are people who are very good at the "heel and toe", and they will and should continue to do it.
Before I started sticking my neck out in this "heel and toe" conversation I interviewed professional instructors and each agreed that there is something lost in total braking, the movement from brake to gas and the release of the brake.
I decided there had to be a better way.
Damn computers
Here I go again... don't heel and toe.....
Brakes slow the car down, not the gears.
In the "neutral zone" make the change to the proper gear, accelerate out.
You are told to be very smooth and not be "sawing" the steering wheel.
You are told be slow and smooth on the acceleration out of a corner.
You are told to brake to the point of wheel skid or ABS lockup.
And yet, with your foot at the brake point of wheel skid, you are supposed to rock your braking foot over to the gas, just enough to raise the revs a "certain" amount, push the clutch in, move the shifter, release the clutch, then release the brake and "smoothly" get on the gas without upsetting the car.
You know by that description, it can't be done.
Now there are people who are very good at the "heel and toe", and they will and should continue to do it.
Before I started sticking my neck out in this "heel and toe" conversation I interviewed professional instructors and each agreed that there is something lost in total braking, the movement from brake to gas and the release of the brake.
I decided there had to be a better way.
It doesn't take long to learn heel n toe. Once you have the muscle memory and control down, you can apply it across most vehicles. Is it possible to mess it up once in a while? absolutely. As it's possible to mess up your braking zone, entry speed, exit speed and a host of other things when driving fast. That doesn't mean you shouldn't work to improve on those areas. Same goes for heel n toe.
07-19-2015, 02:22 PM
#13
Melting Slicks
It doesn't take long to learn IF you go out and practice. If you wait until your next track event, yea, it will take a long time.
I know of more than one driver who took a whole week to learn it.
07-19-2015, 02:39 PM
#14
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The reason I found it easier to learn at the track is because you find yourself hard on the brake which stabilizes your right foot for a smooth role to the throttle without being herky jerky on the suspension. The deeper you go and more aggressive with threshold braking, the easier. If you are going for a Sunday drive on the highway you find a light touch on the brake is much more difficult while rolling the foot. And, as mentioned, the rhythm at track speed makes it more intuitive. Now, it is correct that once learned at the track, you can do it easily at any speed and, pretty much, in any vehicle while on the highway because you have already developed a good sensing for it, not because it is easier on the street. It is not.
07-19-2015, 03:25 PM
#15
Drifting
The rhythm at speed makes things sync so much easier. I first tried it at T1 Road Atlanta. Synced perfectly and I have been doing it ever since. I find the pedals in my C4 really close with the brake and clutch yet farther away with brake and throttle than in my C5. I find the C5 much easier but I do have the elite engineering offset pedal for the throttle. If I had to do it again, I wouldn't get the largest pedal offset, the medium would have been much better for my size 9's.
07-19-2015, 04:21 PM
#16
When I first started doing HPDE I was not able to heel-toe. I have driven manual transmissions my whole life, but it was a skill that I just never fully appreciated and didn't work on so it was intimidating. Also, I always felt like I would screw up and damage the car/clutch in some way. That probably sounds silly, but it was something I just had to get over. I spoke candidly with one of my instructors at the time and he said, "Don't worry about it right now. Focus on your lines, your smoothness, and car control at the track. Work on your heel-toe on the street." I took that to heart and realized that everything was still moving so fast for me on track that trying to incorporate some fine motor skill type activity on top of everything else would have just been a distraction. Sort of the patting your head while rubbing your belly thing.
I started in the driveway with the car running and out of gear. Foot on the brake then blip the throttle - trying for consistency and hitting the target RPM. Once I was satisfied with that I took it to the street. Luckily my daily driver was a little Cobalt SS/TC back then and for whatever reason this car (with bone stock pedals) just clicked with me. I worked for weeks on the street. Every morning on the drive to work, etc., and got to the point where I would do it without thinking under most all street situations. It was always about keeping it as smooth as possible.
After that I started doing it on track. It was more difficult in my C5 because the pedals didn't seem to have the ideal placement for me so I ended up adding aftermarket pedals and tweaked those a bit, which helped. I've also found that even though I can do it fine on track, the more aggressive pads that I run these days make it difficult when I drive the C5 on the street. Under normal driving conditions I just can't get the brake pedal far enough to smoothly catch the gas pedal. I think it's something like what SouthernSon noted above - when you're harder/faster on the pedal it seems to work better (I know that probably sounds contradictory to what I said previously, but the key is the practice and muscle memory).
So, there are many factors that contribute and finding a setup that you're comfortable with is certainly important, but really it's about practice. Devote an afternoon or two to just going out in the driveway and then on the street and practice. Pick some soft, comfortable shoes, too, because that helps the feel. Find out what your speeds are in gear at RPM (e.g. 60mph is 5000rpm in 2nd gear, etc). Just practice and be patient - it's not something that will happen overnight.
I started in the driveway with the car running and out of gear. Foot on the brake then blip the throttle - trying for consistency and hitting the target RPM. Once I was satisfied with that I took it to the street. Luckily my daily driver was a little Cobalt SS/TC back then and for whatever reason this car (with bone stock pedals) just clicked with me. I worked for weeks on the street. Every morning on the drive to work, etc., and got to the point where I would do it without thinking under most all street situations. It was always about keeping it as smooth as possible.
After that I started doing it on track. It was more difficult in my C5 because the pedals didn't seem to have the ideal placement for me so I ended up adding aftermarket pedals and tweaked those a bit, which helped. I've also found that even though I can do it fine on track, the more aggressive pads that I run these days make it difficult when I drive the C5 on the street. Under normal driving conditions I just can't get the brake pedal far enough to smoothly catch the gas pedal. I think it's something like what SouthernSon noted above - when you're harder/faster on the pedal it seems to work better (I know that probably sounds contradictory to what I said previously, but the key is the practice and muscle memory).
So, there are many factors that contribute and finding a setup that you're comfortable with is certainly important, but really it's about practice. Devote an afternoon or two to just going out in the driveway and then on the street and practice. Pick some soft, comfortable shoes, too, because that helps the feel. Find out what your speeds are in gear at RPM (e.g. 60mph is 5000rpm in 2nd gear, etc). Just practice and be patient - it's not something that will happen overnight.
07-19-2015, 04:31 PM
#17
Racer
I do HT for over 20 years. Had to learn it the hard way - with double clutch.
I'm all for it!! everyone who track cars should learn and do it.
But to answer your question, yes there is an alternative:
auto-blip dot com
I, personally, never tried it, but many people did and liked it.
I'm all for it!! everyone who track cars should learn and do it.
But to answer your question, yes there is an alternative:
auto-blip dot com
I, personally, never tried it, but many people did and liked it.
07-19-2015, 04:43 PM
#18
Instructor
I know that I need to learn to heel toe shift, but that is currently not in my skill set. So, as a result, I find myself losing ground to others tracking out of most curves for which a downshift was required on corner entry ( such as turn 10 Pitt north, or turn 1 Summit Point main.
Turn 10 Pitt, I run down in 4th gear, slow down, turn in, neutral balance, shift to 2nd, accelerate out.
I gain about 2 car lengths on braking (while others are heel and toeing) and accelerate out at exactly the same place.
Now to completely confuse the issue, left foot brake and do not move your right foot from the gas pedal.
Learning to NOT heel and toe and left foot braking, takes about half as long as learning TO heel and toe.
Each time the subject comes up, I through in my 2 cents and I get the same response, right Arty.
Turn 10 Pitt, I run down in 4th gear, slow down, turn in, neutral balance, shift to 2nd, accelerate out.
I gain about 2 car lengths on braking (while others are heel and toeing) and accelerate out at exactly the same place.
Now to completely confuse the issue, left foot brake and do not move your right foot from the gas pedal.
Learning to NOT heel and toe and left foot braking, takes about half as long as learning TO heel and toe.
Each time the subject comes up, I through in my 2 cents and I get the same response, right Arty.
07-19-2015, 06:14 PM
#19
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As I have said many times before, what you do you do very well. But, are you sure those two car lengths on shooting the apex with throttle from those that H/T is a fair representation for those that actually know how to H/T? 
07-19-2015, 07:23 PM
#20
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I was thinking about a set of these pedals, would you recommend them? How is the install and quality? My foot slipped off the brake at the glen going into turn 8 and it rattled me some. My feet are 10.5's and I have driving shoes. I feel like the pedals are too far apart and I have to roll/turn my foot a lot.