sway bars
10-15-2015, 01:40 AM
#21
Supporting Vendor
I'll keep this short and sweet.
In frustration with what was out there, I commissioned my own bars. I wanted a few things. Some adjustment. Stuff that didn't cost $1000 (or $1k a bar). Stuff that worked, and stuff I could show worked.
My bars aren't fancy, they just do their job. Front bars are 2 way adjustable and rears are 3 way. We have a few of each, though primarily we don't run a very big rear bar... which is a common thing many do, because most bars assume you are driving a stock car with no camber in the front and so their answer to "understeer" is more rear bar. Where *I* have this silly notion that I want to make the car work the best it can.
Bars make a big difference. Depending on what model car can be a HUGE difference. Typically we do the front bar as the big change, and the rear bar as a trim/balancing factor.
I also carry a few types of endlinks as well. And my bars work with those, or stock links both.
If you wonder if cars work on my bars, we dominate Solo/Autocross competitions. Almost every Corvette is running at least one of my front bars, and many where legal run a rear as well.
I'm a sponsor, I also have aFe/Pfadt as an option, as well as Eibach, Hotchkis, etc. I don't build a lot of stuff, I only do it when I feel I can do better. In fact I've run other bars mentioned and T1 stuff too in looking for what I wanted. I didn't find it. I ended up building it.
In frustration with what was out there, I commissioned my own bars. I wanted a few things. Some adjustment. Stuff that didn't cost $1000 (or $1k a bar). Stuff that worked, and stuff I could show worked.
My bars aren't fancy, they just do their job. Front bars are 2 way adjustable and rears are 3 way. We have a few of each, though primarily we don't run a very big rear bar... which is a common thing many do, because most bars assume you are driving a stock car with no camber in the front and so their answer to "understeer" is more rear bar. Where *I* have this silly notion that I want to make the car work the best it can.
Bars make a big difference. Depending on what model car can be a HUGE difference. Typically we do the front bar as the big change, and the rear bar as a trim/balancing factor.
I also carry a few types of endlinks as well. And my bars work with those, or stock links both.
If you wonder if cars work on my bars, we dominate Solo/Autocross competitions. Almost every Corvette is running at least one of my front bars, and many where legal run a rear as well.
I'm a sponsor, I also have aFe/Pfadt as an option, as well as Eibach, Hotchkis, etc. I don't build a lot of stuff, I only do it when I feel I can do better. In fact I've run other bars mentioned and T1 stuff too in looking for what I wanted. I didn't find it. I ended up building it.
__________________
Sam Strano
Strano Performance Parts
www.stranoparts.com
814-849-3450
More options than any other single company out there. More parts than any other single company I know: Brakes to Safety, Wheels to Exhaust. Suspension to Air Filters: Girodisc, Hawk, Raybestos, Essex Racing/AP, Ferodo, Wilwood, Penske, Koni, Borg Motorsport, Ridetech, Viking, After Dark Speed, Hotchkis, Bilstein, KW, Forgestar, BC Forged, Forgeline, MRR Wheels and on, and on, and on it goes.
Sam Strano
Strano Performance Parts
www.stranoparts.com
814-849-3450
More options than any other single company out there. More parts than any other single company I know: Brakes to Safety, Wheels to Exhaust. Suspension to Air Filters: Girodisc, Hawk, Raybestos, Essex Racing/AP, Ferodo, Wilwood, Penske, Koni, Borg Motorsport, Ridetech, Viking, After Dark Speed, Hotchkis, Bilstein, KW, Forgestar, BC Forged, Forgeline, MRR Wheels and on, and on, and on it goes.
10-15-2015, 03:50 PM
#22
Melting Slicks
It probably isn't so easy to come up with definite pairings of bars (hence the adjustability) because it depends on other factors in the car and as mentioned before, tires.
I find the C5Z in stock form understeers reasonably badly. Going to a square set up helps a bit, and getting a more aggressive alignment helps more. This year, I went from stock bars to front and rear Strano bars. I set the front at the softer setting and the rear at the middle setting and the car oversteered way to much. I tried going to the softer rear setting but there seems to be some issue with contact with the rear toe links at full droop, (at least on my car) so I went back to the stock rear bar. I am very happy with the balance of the car now but I am on Michelin PSS tires which are certainly not R comps.
My point is, given the stock car with stock everything, I think stiffening the rear would be the obvious choice but going to a staggered set up and more alignment changed the balance of the car enough that actually adding some front bar made sense.
BTW, I would think for just about any car you plan to drive on the street that the T1 bars are too much.
I find the C5Z in stock form understeers reasonably badly. Going to a square set up helps a bit, and getting a more aggressive alignment helps more. This year, I went from stock bars to front and rear Strano bars. I set the front at the softer setting and the rear at the middle setting and the car oversteered way to much. I tried going to the softer rear setting but there seems to be some issue with contact with the rear toe links at full droop, (at least on my car) so I went back to the stock rear bar. I am very happy with the balance of the car now but I am on Michelin PSS tires which are certainly not R comps.
My point is, given the stock car with stock everything, I think stiffening the rear would be the obvious choice but going to a staggered set up and more alignment changed the balance of the car enough that actually adding some front bar made sense.
BTW, I would think for just about any car you plan to drive on the street that the T1 bars are too much.
Understeer can also be caused by too much entry speed and to abruptly turning the wheel on entry.
On a square setup mine seems fairly neutral. Does it push when the tires get greasy? Yes it does, or it did on the 5 year old tires I have on it now. I slowed entry speed and was easier on turn in, it stuck just fine.
A "Neutral" car is preference, pizza is pizza is pizza...but everyone like is different.
GM spent a ton of money engineering these cars, I can't say my
self is ready to mess with it just yet.More camber in the front will have the same effect as more rear bar, or it did on the Camaro anyway. That's where I will go next.
10-15-2015, 07:19 PM
#23
Supporting Vendor
Stock the car has no camber to speak of. And it is meant to push some in stock form to add safety.
You went way up on front bar, up a little on rear, but it was too loose. See also why I don't run a massively stiff rear bar like many, that's the reason right there.
As for any contact with the toe link and end link, I have the end of the bar pretty far out to make it softer, but as you said it only touches at full droop and only on some cars with stock links. This is not a issue as you are never in such a state when driving and nothing bad can or does happen. Also easily fixed with other links, or, if it's happening only on one side sliding the bar slightly over to the other side (like 1/8").
You went way up on front bar, up a little on rear, but it was too loose. See also why I don't run a massively stiff rear bar like many, that's the reason right there.
As for any contact with the toe link and end link, I have the end of the bar pretty far out to make it softer, but as you said it only touches at full droop and only on some cars with stock links. This is not a issue as you are never in such a state when driving and nothing bad can or does happen. Also easily fixed with other links, or, if it's happening only on one side sliding the bar slightly over to the other side (like 1/8").
10-15-2015, 07:49 PM
#24
Melting Slicks
I would call Sam Strano and get a set of his bars. They are softer than T1 bars and adjustable. For hpde and auto-x I think you will find them great. My car needs T1 bars to work at peak grip. Any softer bar and I lose lap time (somewhat track dependent), but my car is a full race car on A7's. I can get by with softer bars on tighter tracks with less high load corners. But Laguna Seca and Sonoma load the car so hard with elevation changes that a stiffer bar provides a faster setup in my experience. But for your setup and goals, a Strano bar would be perfect IMO.
10-16-2015, 08:34 AM
#25
Pro
[QUOTE=Sam Strano;1590702381]
.
You went way up on front bar, up a little on rear, but it was too loose. See also why I don't run a massively stiff rear bar like many, that's the reason right there.
QUOTE]
I also went to a 295/295 square set up and neg 2.2 camber (which actually isn't enough). I was concerned that this alone would change the balance of the car to oversteer but that if I was going to add the front bar, the change might not be so drastic if the rear bar change was not so big. As it turns out, it was and at the moment I am happier with the front Strano bar and rear stock one. Just a small amount of understeer in really fast corners (Mosport turns 4 and 8 come to mind). Not sure how this would work out for you guys on Ovals.
Obviously going to something like a slick or R 7s changes everything, which like I said earlier means that bar recommendations can be difficult to suggest without knowing a whole bunch of other things.
10-23-2015, 06:48 AM
#28
Safety Car
If you have a street car I'm not sure that sway bars are worth the money. GM did a good job.
On the track you want adjustable bars. Sway bars are really a tuning device. You want to know what the car is doing mid-corner. All Corvettes understeer on entry and they all oversteer on exit. You need to determine what the car is doing in the middle of the turn.
At that point you can make a judgement about the diameter of the bar you need.
Richard Newton
On the track you want adjustable bars. Sway bars are really a tuning device. You want to know what the car is doing mid-corner. All Corvettes understeer on entry and they all oversteer on exit. You need to determine what the car is doing in the middle of the turn.
At that point you can make a judgement about the diameter of the bar you need.
Richard Newton
11-11-2015, 06:46 AM
#30
Great info here to help zero in on sway bars. My 03 z06 is lowered on stock bolts, front camber is maxed at just north of 2 negative, and rear is set at -1. I've got a fair amount of seat time, so even though these cars are track weapons stock, I'm wearing out tires on the outside and slower in some corners than desired, with quite a bit of body roll at slow corners. So, Pfadt camber kit is on the way, and from this discussion I've pretty much settled on T1 bars. The car rarely gets street driven. Would invite anyone with T1 bars to answer one ****ling question--will I have ample adjustability as to oversteer and understeer with an otherwise, for now, stock suspension? (the front T1 is not adjustable) Just looking for track and auto-x improvement. Thanks
11-13-2015, 10:54 AM
#31
Supporting Vendor
I carry the T1 bars. They aren't on the site right now I'm adding new stuff and moving some other stuff around. I also have Pfadt bars, and Eibach, and Hotchkis, and my own.
From a business perspective, a sale is a sale, etc. However having run all these bars, I felt I could do a better job and I did my own to get the balance and sizing I wanted. Bear in mind most places can't offer all those options and you kind of get pigeon-holed. I don't have EVERY option, but have a lot and more than most others can offer. My thing is I want you to have what works best for your use, not just what's easy to sell or recommend for a quick sale.
The T1 stuff is HUGE and frankly it's too much both front and rear IMHO. I really have no idea how they ended up at that. But I also don't know why they and others haven't made the front bar adjustable like I have, it's not hard...
I can't make a for sure recommendation to you not knowing the rest of the details. What kind of alignment, tires, etc. But I'm telling you the T1 stuff is too much. Bars are nice, but typically we want more front than rear (at least I do) to keep oversteer down. I like having some adjustment at each end to tune balance, and we can further do that by tweaking the front bar size too.
I think I know what I'd recommend but can't do it officially until/unless we spoke about it.
From a business perspective, a sale is a sale, etc. However having run all these bars, I felt I could do a better job and I did my own to get the balance and sizing I wanted. Bear in mind most places can't offer all those options and you kind of get pigeon-holed. I don't have EVERY option, but have a lot and more than most others can offer. My thing is I want you to have what works best for your use, not just what's easy to sell or recommend for a quick sale.
The T1 stuff is HUGE and frankly it's too much both front and rear IMHO. I really have no idea how they ended up at that. But I also don't know why they and others haven't made the front bar adjustable like I have, it's not hard...
I can't make a for sure recommendation to you not knowing the rest of the details. What kind of alignment, tires, etc. But I'm telling you the T1 stuff is too much. Bars are nice, but typically we want more front than rear (at least I do) to keep oversteer down. I like having some adjustment at each end to tune balance, and we can further do that by tweaking the front bar size too.
I think I know what I'd recommend but can't do it officially until/unless we spoke about it.
11-13-2015, 05:54 PM
#32
Well, I have a friend who races a c5. He runs 315 Hoosier A6 square, and he wants to give me a great deal on his slightly used tires. I've got one full set of tires and wheels already, so, pretty sure it would be T1 bars as I want a setup close to his. Was just looking for reassurance about the adjustability.
11-15-2015, 10:53 PM
#33
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Jul 2010
Location: Tacoma, Wa/Surprise, Az
Posts: 2,847
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With T1 bars, doesn't it make sense to have sticky enough tires in order to go to the T1? It seems to me springs also have to or should be considered if going this route.
11-16-2015, 04:46 AM
#34
Drifting
where can i find info on the stifness of sway bars that fit a c5? as they are hollow, the diameter doesnt tell much. in the link above the stock c5 bars seem not even to be listed.
i now have 23 and 19.5 mm bars. the popular swap seems to be to c6/zo6 bars. i believe the front bar is 32 mm. seems like a huge difference.
quick calculation, assuming a 3 mm wall thicknes:
32^4-26^4/23^4-17^4=3.
so the 32 mm bar would be 3 times stiffer, right? what about the strano bar then?
i now have 23 and 19.5 mm bars. the popular swap seems to be to c6/zo6 bars. i believe the front bar is 32 mm. seems like a huge difference.
quick calculation, assuming a 3 mm wall thicknes:
32^4-26^4/23^4-17^4=3.
so the 32 mm bar would be 3 times stiffer, right? what about the strano bar then?
Last edited by romandian; 11-16-2015 at 05:16 AM.
11-16-2015, 08:18 AM
#35
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Jul 2010
Location: Tacoma, Wa/Surprise, Az
Posts: 2,847
Received 188 Likes
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Good questions, the only reference I've seen is the chart Aaron Phadt put together. Hotchkiss gives reference to their specs which can be referenced on Phadt's chart.
11-17-2015, 05:14 PM
#36
Supporting Vendor
where can i find info on the stifness of sway bars that fit a c5? as they are hollow, the diameter doesnt tell much. in the link above the stock c5 bars seem not even to be listed.
i now have 23 and 19.5 mm bars. the popular swap seems to be to c6/zo6 bars. i believe the front bar is 32 mm. seems like a huge difference.
quick calculation, assuming a 3 mm wall thicknes:
32^4-26^4/23^4-17^4=3.
so the 32 mm bar would be 3 times stiffer, right? what about the strano bar then?
i now have 23 and 19.5 mm bars. the popular swap seems to be to c6/zo6 bars. i believe the front bar is 32 mm. seems like a huge difference.
quick calculation, assuming a 3 mm wall thicknes:
32^4-26^4/23^4-17^4=3.
so the 32 mm bar would be 3 times stiffer, right? what about the strano bar then?
Let it be known that I did not just automatically decide to make a few sway bars and just picked some specs. I ran a lot of bars first, including stock bars all the way down to an FRC's stock 28mm, a C5Z's 30mm, the C6Z/GS 31mm, 31.75mm from a few places (there is no such thing as a true 32mm). Then when I felt I needed more I started on my own. I tested 33.3 hollow, in various wall thicknesses, then solid, then 35mm (which is actually 34.9) hollow in different walls, and then a solid. Then even though I couldn't make one that big I tried a T1 because I needed to know what it was about..
If you want bars for a C5 I'll suggest my 33mm front, and the 25mm rear. Part numbers 8472 and 8675. Both are adjustable to start with, the sizes and wall thickness used compliments the other end. If you have something really odd with setup we can talk about other options too.
11-17-2015, 05:28 PM
#37
Supporting Vendor
Me, I don't care so much about the numbers. I do a lot of try this and try that tweaking. When I thought the car could use more front, I built one. More again? Built that. Some cars can use more, I don't run at all the same bar on a GS I run on a C6Z. As much as the cars seem alike and in many ways are, they are not the same car and so we run a much stiffer front bar on a GS than a C6Z.
11-17-2015, 06:04 PM
#38
Drifting
I am pretty sure if "someone" put together a comprehensive chart showing true deflection rates in pounds per inch they would get a ton of free advertising.
Does not seem like it would be difficult to rig up some aluminum bushings, fix one end of the bar and measure deflection rates at say 1, 2 and 3 inches minus bushing play.
Does not seem like it would be difficult to rig up some aluminum bushings, fix one end of the bar and measure deflection rates at say 1, 2 and 3 inches minus bushing play.
11-17-2015, 06:28 PM
#39
Supporting Vendor
Not going to be me for more than a few reasons.
I don't care what numbers say, never had. I use what works, and I've seen people get bogged down in the numbers game. Mind you all my best friends and even my girlfriend are M.E.'s, hold patents, and have developed lots of mechanical things.
It's not hard to look at the basics and kind of figure out what's stiffer than product X and what isn't. AND, people have this "bigger is better" approach to lots of things, see also the mongo rear bars for these cars out there. I hate them, hell I wish I didn't have to run such a big STOCK rear bar on my car for SSR. But it's awfully hard to explain that to folks if they don't want to hear it, and it's even harder if you say product Y is ___% stiffer than C and D. I'd rather discuss why I think something is good or bad in terms of real world use and testing.
Then you have the issue of measuring. You know the old "liars figure and figures lie" line? Well it's amazing how different claims can be from various sources. I'd rather not make that claim and explain how my experiences and testing has gotten me to a recommendation. And I will not always make the same recommendation. That's the real rub for me. Numbers don't make for a good recommendation. I know how much difference there is between a GS and a Z in C6 version. You'd think it's not much, I've seen spring rates on the front claim to be as little as 10 pounds different or as much as 40. I think both are full of crap. I've had both cars, I've run both cars (2 of each in fact), and I can tell you without doubt the GS is WAY softer in front than a Z is. And my gut tells me it's way more than 40 pounds let alone 10. Also pictures and different bars being used on each that I setup. And I've tried the same bars on both cars too. And I don't mean a little different I mean a lot different, way more than a few pounds of spring would cause.
I don't care what numbers say, never had. I use what works, and I've seen people get bogged down in the numbers game. Mind you all my best friends and even my girlfriend are M.E.'s, hold patents, and have developed lots of mechanical things.
It's not hard to look at the basics and kind of figure out what's stiffer than product X and what isn't. AND, people have this "bigger is better" approach to lots of things, see also the mongo rear bars for these cars out there. I hate them, hell I wish I didn't have to run such a big STOCK rear bar on my car for SSR. But it's awfully hard to explain that to folks if they don't want to hear it, and it's even harder if you say product Y is ___% stiffer than C and D. I'd rather discuss why I think something is good or bad in terms of real world use and testing.
Then you have the issue of measuring. You know the old "liars figure and figures lie" line? Well it's amazing how different claims can be from various sources. I'd rather not make that claim and explain how my experiences and testing has gotten me to a recommendation. And I will not always make the same recommendation. That's the real rub for me. Numbers don't make for a good recommendation. I know how much difference there is between a GS and a Z in C6 version. You'd think it's not much, I've seen spring rates on the front claim to be as little as 10 pounds different or as much as 40. I think both are full of crap. I've had both cars, I've run both cars (2 of each in fact), and I can tell you without doubt the GS is WAY softer in front than a Z is. And my gut tells me it's way more than 40 pounds let alone 10. Also pictures and different bars being used on each that I setup. And I've tried the same bars on both cars too. And I don't mean a little different I mean a lot different, way more than a few pounds of spring would cause.
11-17-2015, 07:08 PM
#40
Drifting
Cant argue with your logic.
Would be nice to be able to purchase sway bars just like coil springs, based on actual measured rates.
Understand some people would get hung up on numbers, but would make it easier for some to tune cars based on actual pound rates.
May help in mixing & matching bars and throw some sales efforts on "Pretty" bars out the window when people see they are just different paint colors or pretty anodizing with the same rates.
Agree some of the rear bars out there are way stiff even at the softest setting.
Diameters are only one measure. Weight, alloy, heat treat, arm ext all figure into rate.
Forgot to add. How many people put T1 bars on cars with stock bushings, and turn the bushings into the sway bar?
Would be nice to be able to purchase sway bars just like coil springs, based on actual measured rates.
Understand some people would get hung up on numbers, but would make it easier for some to tune cars based on actual pound rates.
May help in mixing & matching bars and throw some sales efforts on "Pretty" bars out the window when people see they are just different paint colors or pretty anodizing with the same rates.
Agree some of the rear bars out there are way stiff even at the softest setting.
Diameters are only one measure. Weight, alloy, heat treat, arm ext all figure into rate.
Forgot to add. How many people put T1 bars on cars with stock bushings, and turn the bushings into the sway bar?
Last edited by blkbrd69; 11-17-2015 at 07:11 PM.