Another "should I LSx" thread
10-07-2015, 12:41 PM
#1
Another "should I LSx" thread
I'm sure there have been plenty of conversations like this but..
I have a 94 ZF6 with 180k miles that I bought to HPDE/Auto-X. This car is primary track car, but I do drive it to/from track (200 miles away sometimes) and on cruises.
After riding in a friends 08 Z06 modded to be 685hp/535t, I have the need for more power.
The problem is I have a very limited budget. Currently my car dynoed at 330hp/390t, evidently the previous owner did tune/cam. I had already purchased a hot cam to go into the car before going to the dyno, but looks like its not needed now.
My goal would be closer to 500hp/500t, NA, but with a budget of ~2k, should I: Long tubes, 1.6 rockers, tune, road race pan, refresh motor (rings/bearings). OR 6.0 truck block, 243 heads, wiring harness, road race pan, long tubes.
OR sell the car, and use the money for rebuilding motor to get a abused C5 so it already has an LS to work from, better brakes, etc. I think I could get 5-6 for my car as it is, plus the 2k gets me a higher mileage C5.
Thoughts? (comments of "don't do a corvette on a budget, get a new Z06 if you want to track or nothing" or other such comments will be promptly ignored. I have tracked my car with no failures for 2 years without issue. It can be done on a budget).
I have a 94 ZF6 with 180k miles that I bought to HPDE/Auto-X. This car is primary track car, but I do drive it to/from track (200 miles away sometimes) and on cruises.
After riding in a friends 08 Z06 modded to be 685hp/535t, I have the need for more power.
The problem is I have a very limited budget. Currently my car dynoed at 330hp/390t, evidently the previous owner did tune/cam. I had already purchased a hot cam to go into the car before going to the dyno, but looks like its not needed now.
My goal would be closer to 500hp/500t, NA, but with a budget of ~2k, should I: Long tubes, 1.6 rockers, tune, road race pan, refresh motor (rings/bearings). OR 6.0 truck block, 243 heads, wiring harness, road race pan, long tubes.
OR sell the car, and use the money for rebuilding motor to get a abused C5 so it already has an LS to work from, better brakes, etc. I think I could get 5-6 for my car as it is, plus the 2k gets me a higher mileage C5.
Thoughts? (comments of "don't do a corvette on a budget, get a new Z06 if you want to track or nothing" or other such comments will be promptly ignored. I have tracked my car with no failures for 2 years without issue. It can be done on a budget).
10-07-2015, 04:14 PM
#2
Safety Car
I'm sure there have been plenty of conversations like this but..
I have a 94 ZF6 with 180k miles that I bought to HPDE/Auto-X. This car is primary track car, but I do drive it to/from track (200 miles away sometimes) and on cruises.
After riding in a friends 08 Z06 modded to be 685hp/535t, I have the need for more power.
The problem is I have a very limited budget. Currently my car dynoed at 330hp/390t, evidently the previous owner did tune/cam. I had already purchased a hot cam to go into the car before going to the dyno, but looks like its not needed now.
My goal would be closer to 500hp/500t, NA, but with a budget of ~2k, should I: Long tubes, 1.6 rockers, tune, road race pan, refresh motor (rings/bearings). OR 6.0 truck block, 243 heads, wiring harness, road race pan, long tubes.
OR sell the car, and use the money for rebuilding motor to get a abused C5 so it already has an LS to work from, better brakes, etc. I think I could get 5-6 for my car as it is, plus the 2k gets me a higher mileage C5.
Thoughts? (comments of "don't do a corvette on a budget, get a new Z06 if you want to track or nothing" or other such comments will be promptly ignored. I have tracked my car with no failures for 2 years without issue. It can be done on a budget).
I have a 94 ZF6 with 180k miles that I bought to HPDE/Auto-X. This car is primary track car, but I do drive it to/from track (200 miles away sometimes) and on cruises.
After riding in a friends 08 Z06 modded to be 685hp/535t, I have the need for more power.
The problem is I have a very limited budget. Currently my car dynoed at 330hp/390t, evidently the previous owner did tune/cam. I had already purchased a hot cam to go into the car before going to the dyno, but looks like its not needed now.
My goal would be closer to 500hp/500t, NA, but with a budget of ~2k, should I: Long tubes, 1.6 rockers, tune, road race pan, refresh motor (rings/bearings). OR 6.0 truck block, 243 heads, wiring harness, road race pan, long tubes.
OR sell the car, and use the money for rebuilding motor to get a abused C5 so it already has an LS to work from, better brakes, etc. I think I could get 5-6 for my car as it is, plus the 2k gets me a higher mileage C5.
Thoughts? (comments of "don't do a corvette on a budget, get a new Z06 if you want to track or nothing" or other such comments will be promptly ignored. I have tracked my car with no failures for 2 years without issue. It can be done on a budget).
Its really up to you. I think the newer chassis will handle the power better for sure.
Why would anyone want a new Z06 they seem to have a lot of overheating issues? The C6Z's dropped valves, the C5Z's are the best track capable Corvette, IMHO.
C4's eat wheel bearings, clutch part availability is an issue, so is the Opti-Spark but other than that pretty good. Granted the don't have the HP but at least they are reliable. I've had no issues either, not even with the Opti-Spark (knocks on wood).
Good luck with your decision.
10-07-2015, 06:25 PM
#3
Drifting
I don't see how you can take a truck 6.0 and spend $2k total and get to 500hp. Not when HP is $50+/hp.
Although it is frustrating to be passed by a lot of cars, when you get to the point where the Miatas are not passing you, spend your dough on a later model. There are C5Z's and C6GS's that can still be found as garage queens, and when you are a good driver, that much HP won't be the deciding factor.
Although it is frustrating to be passed by a lot of cars, when you get to the point where the Miatas are not passing you, spend your dough on a later model. There are C5Z's and C6GS's that can still be found as garage queens, and when you are a good driver, that much HP won't be the deciding factor.
10-07-2015, 10:00 PM
#4
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It sounds to me like your limited budget leaves you with modding the engine you already have. There used to be aftermarket solutions to the Optispark problem and back in the 90s there were a bunch of C4 people that modded the LT1 engine to get into the 400+ RWHP range. I don't know if it is achievable with your budget but it is probably more achievable than doing an LS swap.
Otherwise sell the car and go for a C5Z although you have to expect problems with the EBCM sooner or later. My 03Z pulled 365 RWHP with the stock air cleaner/filter and it was a great handling car. The LS6 engine was pretty much bullet proof. I put 6 years of heavy track usage on the car and the only thing I did was change the oil and add an aftermarket intake. When I sold the car the original spark plugs were still in the engine. A solid, dependable track car.
Bill
Otherwise sell the car and go for a C5Z although you have to expect problems with the EBCM sooner or later. My 03Z pulled 365 RWHP with the stock air cleaner/filter and it was a great handling car. The LS6 engine was pretty much bullet proof. I put 6 years of heavy track usage on the car and the only thing I did was change the oil and add an aftermarket intake. When I sold the car the original spark plugs were still in the engine. A solid, dependable track car.
Bill
10-08-2015, 04:32 PM
#5
Sorry I should have been more clear.
I know that 2k isnt going to get me 500hp. Im saying that the end goal over the next 3-5 seasons would be something about 500hp. So whats a better base point to start from, LT-1 with mods, or just skip to the LS and start building up from there.
OR since it will take so much money to get up to 500hp, just start with a better car.
And the only cars that have passed me thus far were that 685hp Z06, a late model track prepped M3 (440hp?) on slicks, and a Evo pushing 500hp, on slicks.
My only problem with a C5z is I hate the interior, and they are physically a larger car then the C4/C6 (wider), I have very limited garage space, so that space maters. So is a C5z, really a better starting point then a C6 with Z51? Assuming both could be bought for about 15k.
I know that 2k isnt going to get me 500hp. Im saying that the end goal over the next 3-5 seasons would be something about 500hp. So whats a better base point to start from, LT-1 with mods, or just skip to the LS and start building up from there.
OR since it will take so much money to get up to 500hp, just start with a better car.
And the only cars that have passed me thus far were that 685hp Z06, a late model track prepped M3 (440hp?) on slicks, and a Evo pushing 500hp, on slicks.
My only problem with a C5z is I hate the interior, and they are physically a larger car then the C4/C6 (wider), I have very limited garage space, so that space maters. So is a C5z, really a better starting point then a C6 with Z51? Assuming both could be bought for about 15k.
10-09-2015, 09:31 AM
#7
Drifting
It will be some time in the distant future when a C5Z or a C6Z51 will come down to the $15k price point.
Most here would tell you that if you have a reliable driver now, spend your money on seat time. It isn't the hammer down straights that make the driver, it is finesse in braking and turns. You have a car that will teach you that right now. Fun to pass somebody in a straight, yea, but more rewarding to leave them in the turns and make THEM EARN a pass signal from you.
So your question is what is a good base. Well, you can find a Decent C5Z for $19k and then you still have $2k to spend to make it a really great car. Personally, I would spend my money on keeping the braking system in perfect working order, learn and do good alignments, and a good set of seats, harness bar and 6 point belts. Then you can concentrate on what you should, honing driving skills. The seat will keep you from sliding around and learning to relax your muscles under G loads.
But, the next 3-5 seasons, use what you have.
Most here would tell you that if you have a reliable driver now, spend your money on seat time. It isn't the hammer down straights that make the driver, it is finesse in braking and turns. You have a car that will teach you that right now. Fun to pass somebody in a straight, yea, but more rewarding to leave them in the turns and make THEM EARN a pass signal from you.
So your question is what is a good base. Well, you can find a Decent C5Z for $19k and then you still have $2k to spend to make it a really great car. Personally, I would spend my money on keeping the braking system in perfect working order, learn and do good alignments, and a good set of seats, harness bar and 6 point belts. Then you can concentrate on what you should, honing driving skills. The seat will keep you from sliding around and learning to relax your muscles under G loads.
But, the next 3-5 seasons, use what you have.
10-09-2015, 11:10 AM
#8
I guess I should add more clarity. I race currently, and have plenty of track time in 24 hour, 16 hour, etc races. I guess talking about a car for DE events and being on a budget people assume your new to this driving on a track thing.
My brakes are well setup for the way I drive (conserving equipment), PFC01s/ST43s, brake ducts, etc.
In advance group I make up 90% of my time in the corners.
The only reason I am looking to do any power adds now is I have a bad rear main leak that needs to be fixed. The car has 180k miles on it, so a freshening up wouldn't hurt either. SO while the engine is out, this is the time to add some power....or just swap to an LSx with the eventual goal of getting up to 500hp some day. OOOOooorrrrrrrrrr not bother and look to swap platforms.
My brakes are well setup for the way I drive (conserving equipment), PFC01s/ST43s, brake ducts, etc.
In advance group I make up 90% of my time in the corners.
The only reason I am looking to do any power adds now is I have a bad rear main leak that needs to be fixed. The car has 180k miles on it, so a freshening up wouldn't hurt either. SO while the engine is out, this is the time to add some power....or just swap to an LSx with the eventual goal of getting up to 500hp some day. OOOOooorrrrrrrrrr not bother and look to swap platforms.
10-09-2015, 12:44 PM
#9
Advanced
Sorry I should have been more clear.
I know that 2k isnt going to get me 500hp. Im saying that the end goal over the next 3-5 seasons would be something about 500hp. So whats a better base point to start from, LT-1 with mods, or just skip to the LS and start building up from there.
I know that 2k isnt going to get me 500hp. Im saying that the end goal over the next 3-5 seasons would be something about 500hp. So whats a better base point to start from, LT-1 with mods, or just skip to the LS and start building up from there.
OR since it will take so much money to get up to 500hp, just start with a better car.
And the only cars that have passed me thus far were that 685hp Z06, a late model track prepped M3 (440hp?) on slicks, and a Evo pushing 500hp, on slicks.
My only problem with a C5z is I hate the interior, and they are physically a larger car then the C4/C6 (wider), I have very limited garage space, so that space maters. So is a C5z, really a better starting point then a C6 with Z51? Assuming both could be bought for about 15k.
And the only cars that have passed me thus far were that 685hp Z06, a late model track prepped M3 (440hp?) on slicks, and a Evo pushing 500hp, on slicks.
My only problem with a C5z is I hate the interior, and they are physically a larger car then the C4/C6 (wider), I have very limited garage space, so that space maters. So is a C5z, really a better starting point then a C6 with Z51? Assuming both could be bought for about 15k.
Keep the tire budget in mind! C6 and newer have conestoga wagon wheels and the tire costs go through the roof for less performance.
7k gets you a crate motor very close to your goals. 5k gets you a used LS3. Can your trans, diff, driveshaft, etc. handle the power? If not more money there. I think you would be better off forgetting your budget for now. Instead try to define as much as possible what your end goal for your car will be. Then do the math on the costs.
Don't forget to reduce weight if you haven't already.
Can you tune and/or fab? F/I is the quickest way to your HP mark. I do predict if you hit your power goals you will then want even more
10-09-2015, 03:53 PM
#10
"The LS is a better starting point. Go aluminum. "
- Thats the question, is the LS that much better to be worth it to swap over, but to an iron block (50-70lbs difference for 1-2k more?).
"Why does the interior matter? Is this a dual use car?"
- Yes 90% of its life on the track, but I do cruise around from time to time
"Keep the tire budget in mind! C6 and newer have conestoga wagon wheels and the tire costs go through the roof for less performance."
- I have a set of wagon wheels and a set of C6 wheels with R888s on them. I have found used take offs for relatively cheap. Can always go take off R6/7s
"7k gets you a crate motor very close to your goals. 5k gets you a used LS3. Can your trans, diff, driveshaft, etc. handle the power? "
- Everything I have heard the ZF6/Dana 44 shouldn't be a problem.
"If not more money there. I think you would be better off forgetting your budget for now. Instead try to define as much as possible what your end goal for your car will be. Then do the math on the costs. "
- Yes exactly, I'm looking for that nudge to push me into a "best direction" and then calculate out what it will cost.
"Don't forget to reduce weight if you haven't already."
- Yes/no, part of my debate right now, when the engine is out do I rip out the AC (it doesn't get that warm in the Pacific Northwest), but it actually works, soo hard to pick. Planning at least a half cage, and thinking of doing 2 front down bars to stiffen up the chassis.
"Can you tune and/or fab?"
- Fab, I do my own cages.
" F/I is the quickest way to your HP mark. "
- Yes, but trying to avoid it if at all possible
I do predict if you hit your power goals you will then want even more
- yeah I know, but trying to start somewhere. ;-)
- Thats the question, is the LS that much better to be worth it to swap over, but to an iron block (50-70lbs difference for 1-2k more?).
"Why does the interior matter? Is this a dual use car?"
- Yes 90% of its life on the track, but I do cruise around from time to time
"Keep the tire budget in mind! C6 and newer have conestoga wagon wheels and the tire costs go through the roof for less performance."
- I have a set of wagon wheels and a set of C6 wheels with R888s on them. I have found used take offs for relatively cheap. Can always go take off R6/7s
"7k gets you a crate motor very close to your goals. 5k gets you a used LS3. Can your trans, diff, driveshaft, etc. handle the power? "
- Everything I have heard the ZF6/Dana 44 shouldn't be a problem.
"If not more money there. I think you would be better off forgetting your budget for now. Instead try to define as much as possible what your end goal for your car will be. Then do the math on the costs. "
- Yes exactly, I'm looking for that nudge to push me into a "best direction" and then calculate out what it will cost.
"Don't forget to reduce weight if you haven't already."
- Yes/no, part of my debate right now, when the engine is out do I rip out the AC (it doesn't get that warm in the Pacific Northwest), but it actually works, soo hard to pick. Planning at least a half cage, and thinking of doing 2 front down bars to stiffen up the chassis.
"Can you tune and/or fab?"
- Fab, I do my own cages.
" F/I is the quickest way to your HP mark. "
- Yes, but trying to avoid it if at all possible
I do predict if you hit your power goals you will then want even more
- yeah I know, but trying to start somewhere. ;-)
10-09-2015, 10:26 PM
#11
Safety Car
I think you can make 450hp in a LT1 without issues. How long it stays together might be another problem on a 2K budget. The stock crank will be fine, the stock rods have to go. Ditto the pistons. Pick up a copy of this.
Port heads, matched cam, injectors, fuel pump, tune, exhaust. The intake is good to 500hp and the stock throttle body will feed a 454. Lloyd Elliot Portworks is a place you may want to talk to.
The C4 drivelines seem to hold up fine under 500hp. The ZF is a VERY strong box. U-joints can fail but cheap to replace. The Dana 44 is a good unit and cheap to rebuild compared to others.
If you want to stay cheap its hard to beat a C4 just understand the limitations. You can make it handle even better than it does for next to nothing as well.
Oh and dare to be different because why not?
Port heads, matched cam, injectors, fuel pump, tune, exhaust. The intake is good to 500hp and the stock throttle body will feed a 454. Lloyd Elliot Portworks is a place you may want to talk to.
The C4 drivelines seem to hold up fine under 500hp. The ZF is a VERY strong box. U-joints can fail but cheap to replace. The Dana 44 is a good unit and cheap to rebuild compared to others.
If you want to stay cheap its hard to beat a C4 just understand the limitations. You can make it handle even better than it does for next to nothing as well.
Oh and dare to be different because why not?
10-09-2015, 11:51 PM
#12
another approach is to realize your mistake of going for a ride in that '08 Z and go back to how things were before.
My last car was an '08 Z I drove daily for 3 years, but with the factory engine. If I drive one with as much power as your friend has in his, I'd need to check myself into some type of betty ford clinic for HP addicts.
My last car was an '08 Z I drove daily for 3 years, but with the factory engine. If I drive one with as much power as your friend has in his, I'd need to check myself into some type of betty ford clinic for HP addicts.
10-12-2015, 10:38 AM
#13
Le Mans Master
Have you driven a C5Z on track? If not, a few laps will answer your question as to whether to mod the C4 or move on.
For a 90% track car, C5Z >>> C6. Keep in mind that the $15k C5 still needs cooling mods to be able to run hard for a 20 minute HPDE session.
For a 90% track car, C5Z >>> C6. Keep in mind that the $15k C5 still needs cooling mods to be able to run hard for a 20 minute HPDE session.
10-12-2015, 07:08 PM
#14
93Rubie - thats the feedback I am looking for thanks.
C5 Hardtop - yes thats the exact problem, I can't go back in time and change that experience.
Scooter70 - no I haven't, I don't know anyone with one, let alone well enough to try out on track. I have driven a standard C5, was so annoyed with the interior that I didn't think I would ever spend the added money on one. But if a C5z is that much better of a starting point then a C6 I will have to look at it closely.
Or just not, and keep upgrading my C4 slowly over time.
C5 Hardtop - yes thats the exact problem, I can't go back in time and change that experience.
Scooter70 - no I haven't, I don't know anyone with one, let alone well enough to try out on track. I have driven a standard C5, was so annoyed with the interior that I didn't think I would ever spend the added money on one. But if a C5z is that much better of a starting point then a C6 I will have to look at it closely.
Or just not, and keep upgrading my C4 slowly over time.
10-15-2015, 09:07 PM
#15
Drifting
I am currently in a c6Z zo7. It has been expensive. Tires and brakes alone are a killer. Hands down the best car I have had for the track is the C5Z. It handles well, with your experience you will be very fast with it. Tires and brakes are reasonable. The LS6 is very close to bullet proof, if you found one unmodded I would leave it that way. I have a very rich friend who has many cars. He drives a C5Z on the track. He is VERY experienced and blows away all the C6Z's w/ a 7.0. Why? driver mod. All he has is sways, shocks and tires. He has many cars and states he has more fun in that car than anyone out there and loves how much cheaper of a keep it is. There are some groups that use the c5z as there instruction car for rent. PDG is one I know of. I think w/ your skill level you will be impressed.
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Rexracer77 (10-16-2015)
10-21-2015, 12:49 PM
#16
So with the feedback here, and thinking "long term", I don't really want to sink a ton of money into this car (i.e. LSx).
I found a used lower milage LT4, i figured I could pick it up, and sell off my current LT1 to re-coupe some cost, headers, tune and that would get me by for a couple years. While the engine is out do some weight reduction things.
LT4 gives me a little higher compression, more RPM, the 1.6 roller rockers/spring, and avoiding needing to send the engine in and having it machined.
Thoughts?
I found a used lower milage LT4, i figured I could pick it up, and sell off my current LT1 to re-coupe some cost, headers, tune and that would get me by for a couple years. While the engine is out do some weight reduction things.
LT4 gives me a little higher compression, more RPM, the 1.6 roller rockers/spring, and avoiding needing to send the engine in and having it machined.
Thoughts?
10-22-2015, 11:03 PM
#17
Drifting
Using that logic, why not just find a good used 03-04 Z now. A few mods and it will keep up with 95% of the cars on the track, never go out of style and add some ponies as you go? Done and done.
10-23-2015, 11:33 AM
#18
Thats why I am thinking like I am thinking now, used motor that I don't have to spend a bunch of money on machine work, just drop it in, make some upgrades, sell my current engine to re-coupe some costs, get by till a kid is out of daycare, then look for something like a C5Z.
10-23-2015, 04:54 PM
#19
Drifting
Well then you've answered your own question. Family first for sure and there will always be expenses with kids, but hands down, they along with the wife is priority 1.
Just be aware that by the time you are going to have any $ left over from the kids, you can pick up a used, affordable C8 Zora cheap...and it will not even be important compared to your Fam.
Best of luck to you my friend, your priorities are in the right place!!!
Just be aware that by the time you are going to have any $ left over from the kids, you can pick up a used, affordable C8 Zora cheap...and it will not even be important compared to your Fam.
Best of luck to you my friend, your priorities are in the right place!!!