Talk me out of a Miata. Or not ??
10-19-2015, 06:39 AM
#41
Safety Car
The one point we've all missed here is the difference between racing and winning.
Just about any car can be raced inexpensively. If you have a desire to win it's going to get real expensive real fast.
Richard Newton
Historic Racing Images
Just about any car can be raced inexpensively. If you have a desire to win it's going to get real expensive real fast.
Richard Newton
Historic Racing Images
10-19-2015, 08:31 AM
#42
Le Mans Master
Richard,
OP was originally talking about TT competition; while I agree that the pointy end is always the most expensive for a given class, I think (thought) that OP was looking for ways to have fun in a reduced class over his current costs.
Have a good one,
Mike
OP was originally talking about TT competition; while I agree that the pointy end is always the most expensive for a given class, I think (thought) that OP was looking for ways to have fun in a reduced class over his current costs.
Have a good one,
Mike
10-22-2015, 10:38 PM
#44
Pro
To me it comes down to the tracks that I want to run. Being in Texas, MSR Cresson is a great Miata track with 20 turns over 3.1 miles (3 other configurations as well, but all Miata friendly). I'm thinking about getting a fully built and top 30% SM for ~$8K to have fun racing. However, I understand that podium SM cars cost ~$40K and they require a flexible character (many SM winners seem to get caught out of spec). At the same time, I have access to COTA, TWS and Eagles Canyon. All are a ton of fun with my C5Z, but would be really frustrating in a Miata (all have long straits with 120 - 170 MPH max speeds). If you are running a track with ~115 MPH max speeds given the length of straits (such as Cresson), it would be great fun beating the tar out of Vetts, Stangs, Cameros, Vipers, etc (assuming you are a better driver than they are). If you are running tracks with long straits, I expect it would be frustrating in a Miata as you catch them in the corners and they blast past you in the straits.
10-22-2015, 10:52 PM
#45
Drifting
After my first year of doing hpde's I don't recall any miatata's going by me anywhere on the track. Even the "super miatata's" with the 302s.
If I wanted to go that slow and never hit the brakes during a session I'd just go the shifter kart route. That should be very cheap...at least until you roll it and find out the roll bar looks a lot like your helmet.
If I wanted to go that slow and never hit the brakes during a session I'd just go the shifter kart route. That should be very cheap...at least until you roll it and find out the roll bar looks a lot like your helmet.
10-22-2015, 11:02 PM
#46
Pro
After my first year of doing hpde's I don't recall any miatata's going by me anywhere on the track. Even the "super miatata's" with the 302s.
If I wanted to go that slow and never hit the brakes during a session I'd just go the shifter kart route. That should be very cheap...at least until you roll it and find out the roll bar looks a lot like your helmet.
If I wanted to go that slow and never hit the brakes during a session I'd just go the shifter kart route. That should be very cheap...at least until you roll it and find out the roll bar looks a lot like your helmet.
10-22-2015, 11:06 PM
#47
Safety Car
Again, I think it comes down to tracks. I have friends who are great drivers and racers across a wide range of cars. They put up consistent Miata lap times at Cresson around 2:32 on the 3.1 and 1:25 on the 1.7. I expect most vette drivers (like myself) would require quite a bit of practice to put up those times.
10-22-2015, 11:15 PM
#48
Pro
If you can't stomp the dog crap out of a Miata on ANY road course ever conceived, it's time to find a new hobby. I was never outrun by any Miata in the C5Z and have only ever been slightly bested by an LS2 powered Miata with aero in the Camaro (with 260whp). Spec Miatas? I chew 'em up and spit 'em out no matter what track. Sure they're annoying on a tight infield, but it doesn't take much of a straight to get around them. Once that happens, they don't come back.
EDIT, I know that is a ridiculous ask. However, having followed and tracked with leading SM racers, I know that on tracks with no long straits they are crazy fast. Would be great to have you out at Cresson with them some day. If you have a 500 HP plus car, you'll still pull well away in the straits. If you have a 370 RWHP car with no aero, I guarantee they will give you a run for your money.
Last edited by SunnydayDILYSI; 10-22-2015 at 11:21 PM.
10-22-2015, 11:45 PM
#52
Pro
Come to Texas and let's play. Been years since I was HPDE 1 (hit a track about every month). There are really good race car drivers down here that I have had the fortune of learning from (we get to track 12-months out of the year after all). Take a look at the NASA and SCCA statistics. Those guys are putting up some really impressive lap times in all classes (especially the TT guys).
10-22-2015, 11:46 PM
#53
Safety Car
Come to Texas and let's play. Been years since I was HPDE 1 (hit a track about every month). There are really good race car drivers down here that I have had the fortune of learning from (we get to track 12-months out of the year after all). Take a look at the NASA and SCCA statistics. Those guys are putting up some really impressive lap times in all classes (especially the TT guys).
10-22-2015, 11:54 PM
#54
Pro
I haven't been there yet, but it looks like a fun track. What event do you plant to hit? 
10-23-2015, 12:04 AM
#55
Safety Car
10-23-2015, 12:08 AM
#56
I think it's comical how defensive some corvette guys get when people talk about miatas being good track cars. It's as if admitting that a miata has merits, beyond simply being cheap, somehow lessens the corvette.
Ill just offer this, I spent my first 2 years of hpde experience in my turbo miata (roughly 165-170rwhp). At the novice and intermediate level, I've passed multitudes of corvettes and mustangs (I've also been passed by a few too). And that's at VIR which is typically considered a horsepower track. I've also spent multiple laps behind corvette drivers who went so slow through the uphill Essex that I almost rear ended a C7, only to have them muscle away at the next straight. So maybe mr corvette owner has never been passed by a miata... But if that's only because you have more horsepower on the straights, then that's nothing to brag about. This sport is about the corners and braking. If you're driving away from a well setup Miata with a good driver in the corners... Then you're doing something right.
I think at the novice/intermediate level, the Miata can be the faster car because it's easier to push the car to the limit. The Miata rarely tries to kill you the way a 300-500hp car does. So you get more comfortable pushing the car hard. Obviously, in experienced hands, the car with more horsepower will ultimately be faster.
All that said, I sold my Miata and picked up a C5 because ultimately I think this platform has more growth potential and can offer both street and track fun.
One other point, since someone complained about constantly being stuck behind slow moving miatas on the track. In advanced run groups with numerous passing zones, there's no reason for anyone to be stuck in traffic for more than a few corners. If that's the case, it's a driver error, not a car/horsepower problem. Either someone doesn't know how to pass, or someone doesn't know how to give point by's.
I guess my point is that i don't see the need to try to discredit the Miata to make me feel better about driving a corvette. If the OP wants to go race a Miata, then more power to him. I'm 100% confident he will have a ton of fun, even if it is "slow" by the almighty corvette standards.
Ill just offer this, I spent my first 2 years of hpde experience in my turbo miata (roughly 165-170rwhp). At the novice and intermediate level, I've passed multitudes of corvettes and mustangs (I've also been passed by a few too). And that's at VIR which is typically considered a horsepower track. I've also spent multiple laps behind corvette drivers who went so slow through the uphill Essex that I almost rear ended a C7, only to have them muscle away at the next straight. So maybe mr corvette owner has never been passed by a miata... But if that's only because you have more horsepower on the straights, then that's nothing to brag about. This sport is about the corners and braking. If you're driving away from a well setup Miata with a good driver in the corners... Then you're doing something right.
I think at the novice/intermediate level, the Miata can be the faster car because it's easier to push the car to the limit. The Miata rarely tries to kill you the way a 300-500hp car does. So you get more comfortable pushing the car hard. Obviously, in experienced hands, the car with more horsepower will ultimately be faster.
All that said, I sold my Miata and picked up a C5 because ultimately I think this platform has more growth potential and can offer both street and track fun.
One other point, since someone complained about constantly being stuck behind slow moving miatas on the track. In advanced run groups with numerous passing zones, there's no reason for anyone to be stuck in traffic for more than a few corners. If that's the case, it's a driver error, not a car/horsepower problem. Either someone doesn't know how to pass, or someone doesn't know how to give point by's.
I guess my point is that i don't see the need to try to discredit the Miata to make me feel better about driving a corvette. If the OP wants to go race a Miata, then more power to him. I'm 100% confident he will have a ton of fun, even if it is "slow" by the almighty corvette standards.
10-23-2015, 12:22 AM
#57
Safety Car
I think it's comical how defensive some corvette guys get when people talk about miatas being good track cars. It's as if admitting that a miata has merits, beyond simply being cheap, somehow lessens the corvette.
Ill just offer this, I spent my first 2 years of hpde experience in my turbo miata (roughly 165-170rwhp). At the novice and intermediate level, I've passed multitudes of corvettes and mustangs (I've also been passed by a few too). And that's at VIR which is typically considered a horsepower track. I've also spent multiple laps behind corvette drivers who went so slow through the uphill Essex that I almost rear ended a C7, only to have them muscle away at the next straight. So maybe mr corvette owner has never been passed by a miata... But if that's only because you have more horsepower on the straights, then that's nothing to brag about. This sport is about the corners and braking. If you're driving away from a well setup Miata with a good driver in the corners... Then you're doing something right.
I think at the novice/intermediate level, the Miata can be the faster car because it's easier to push the car to the limit. The Miata rarely tries to kill you the way a 300-500hp car does. So you get more comfortable pushing the car hard. Obviously, in experienced hands, the car with more horsepower will ultimately be faster.
All that said, I sold my Miata and picked up a C5 because ultimately I think this platform has more growth potential and can offer both street and track fun.
One other point, since someone complained about constantly being stuck behind slow moving miatas on the track. In advanced run groups with numerous passing zones, there's no reason for anyone to be stuck in traffic for more than a few corners. If that's the case, it's a driver error, not a car/horsepower problem. Either someone doesn't know how to pass, or someone doesn't know how to give point by's.
I guess my point is that i don't see the need to try to discredit the Miata to make me feel better about driving a corvette. If the OP wants to go race a Miata, then more power to him. I'm 100% confident he will have a ton of fun, even if it is "slow" by the almighty corvette standards.
Ill just offer this, I spent my first 2 years of hpde experience in my turbo miata (roughly 165-170rwhp). At the novice and intermediate level, I've passed multitudes of corvettes and mustangs (I've also been passed by a few too). And that's at VIR which is typically considered a horsepower track. I've also spent multiple laps behind corvette drivers who went so slow through the uphill Essex that I almost rear ended a C7, only to have them muscle away at the next straight. So maybe mr corvette owner has never been passed by a miata... But if that's only because you have more horsepower on the straights, then that's nothing to brag about. This sport is about the corners and braking. If you're driving away from a well setup Miata with a good driver in the corners... Then you're doing something right.
I think at the novice/intermediate level, the Miata can be the faster car because it's easier to push the car to the limit. The Miata rarely tries to kill you the way a 300-500hp car does. So you get more comfortable pushing the car hard. Obviously, in experienced hands, the car with more horsepower will ultimately be faster.
All that said, I sold my Miata and picked up a C5 because ultimately I think this platform has more growth potential and can offer both street and track fun.
One other point, since someone complained about constantly being stuck behind slow moving miatas on the track. In advanced run groups with numerous passing zones, there's no reason for anyone to be stuck in traffic for more than a few corners. If that's the case, it's a driver error, not a car/horsepower problem. Either someone doesn't know how to pass, or someone doesn't know how to give point by's.
I guess my point is that i don't see the need to try to discredit the Miata to make me feel better about driving a corvette. If the OP wants to go race a Miata, then more power to him. I'm 100% confident he will have a ton of fun, even if it is "slow" by the almighty corvette standards.
. The Miata is a fun car, it's a well balanced brilliantly handling car and in the cones it is not the underdog. But it's still SLOW. To fear it in a superior car (that turns) is foolish. Let's call it what it is, and not what it isn't.
10-23-2015, 02:15 AM
#58
Drifting
Thread Starter
Wow really??
I was getting close to doing brakes, but it is so much fun chewing up other Corvettes on track.
How many guys are running 10/10ths on a friction circle in their pretty HPDE Corvette?
From what I see most even intermediate or advanced drivers run a safe classroom line. Of course these are the same drivers driving white knuckled and never giving a point by to the red Z trying not to bump draft you through the apex.
This is about building a modern fully caged track only car, fire system, side nets, cool suit ext. one that is easy on expendables, and if I wad up it wont cost me a fortune.
The C5's and C6's I have seen grace a wall or barrels do not do well at all. Chevy in no way set up the brakes, oil systems, impact structure, Cooling ext for true track use.
Anyone that thinks their modified C5Z was designed for the track is dreaming. Yes they make great track cars even though my C6Z destroys them is kidding themselves.
Spend time in both advanced run groups and in intermediate groups. Ironically the intermediate groups are consistently running quicker.
Why? Because the advanced group is generally filled with race cars which are rule bound to less horsepower.
The Intermediate group generally has lots of very high HP cars that the owners do not want the paint re-positioned by real race cars running without pointbys.
My last weekend out was fantastic in intermediate as guys were giving me pointbys 40 yards out and held their lines well. Only one winged C5 and one supercharged mustang had problems realizing they really need to get that arm up and out.
How many of us are running way faster than our delicate cars with street based safety systems are built for????
I like the idea of driving something built to take a hit. Most of the fastest cars on track are not ready for any type of wall or barrel caressing.
Having built tube frame cars in the past I am a bit biased and snicker when guys think an HPDE Corvette is a race car, or we are racing vs playing? Rubbing just may be racing?
I would lay odds if you gave the racer momentum car some HP and took the corner clog-er drivers down to the same level HP wise. The momentum drivers would eat them alive due to skills acquired.
I was getting close to doing brakes, but it is so much fun chewing up other Corvettes on track.
How many guys are running 10/10ths on a friction circle in their pretty HPDE Corvette?
From what I see most even intermediate or advanced drivers run a safe classroom line. Of course these are the same drivers driving white knuckled and never giving a point by to the red Z trying not to bump draft you through the apex.
This is about building a modern fully caged track only car, fire system, side nets, cool suit ext. one that is easy on expendables, and if I wad up it wont cost me a fortune.
The C5's and C6's I have seen grace a wall or barrels do not do well at all. Chevy in no way set up the brakes, oil systems, impact structure, Cooling ext for true track use.
Anyone that thinks their modified C5Z was designed for the track is dreaming. Yes they make great track cars even though my C6Z destroys them is kidding themselves.
Spend time in both advanced run groups and in intermediate groups. Ironically the intermediate groups are consistently running quicker.
Why? Because the advanced group is generally filled with race cars which are rule bound to less horsepower.
The Intermediate group generally has lots of very high HP cars that the owners do not want the paint re-positioned by real race cars running without pointbys.
My last weekend out was fantastic in intermediate as guys were giving me pointbys 40 yards out and held their lines well. Only one winged C5 and one supercharged mustang had problems realizing they really need to get that arm up and out.
How many of us are running way faster than our delicate cars with street based safety systems are built for????
I like the idea of driving something built to take a hit. Most of the fastest cars on track are not ready for any type of wall or barrel caressing.
Having built tube frame cars in the past I am a bit biased and snicker when guys think an HPDE Corvette is a race car, or we are racing vs playing? Rubbing just may be racing?
I would lay odds if you gave the racer momentum car some HP and took the corner clog-er drivers down to the same level HP wise. The momentum drivers would eat them alive due to skills acquired.
10-23-2015, 02:56 AM
#59
First off, a third generation Miata is not really a Miata. The chassis is closer to an RX8. I don't know what a fourth generation Miata is.
But a Miata, while being a great short-wheelbase autocross car, it doesn't really have a very stiff chassis. Roll cage ? The only really beneficial roll cage is one that ties the door bars into the rocker panel / door sill areas and there is a Southern California shop that does this.
And so, for a four-cylinder sports car that does have a stiff chassis, take a look at the Pontiac Solstice. No other four-cylinder sports car has a chassis like that except for a Lotus.
In fact, for a short-wheelbase track car, take a look at a used Lotus Elise
.
But a Miata, while being a great short-wheelbase autocross car, it doesn't really have a very stiff chassis. Roll cage ? The only really beneficial roll cage is one that ties the door bars into the rocker panel / door sill areas and there is a Southern California shop that does this.
And so, for a four-cylinder sports car that does have a stiff chassis, take a look at the Pontiac Solstice. No other four-cylinder sports car has a chassis like that except for a Lotus.
In fact, for a short-wheelbase track car, take a look at a used Lotus Elise
.
Last edited by B Stead; 10-23-2015 at 03:02 AM.
10-23-2015, 09:41 AM
#60
@Supercharged111 - actually I don't think our opinions are too far apart. Should Corvette owners "fear" Miatas? No. But they should respect them for their capabilities. Horsepower isn't the only thing that makes a car good.
I think the perception that Corvette drivers should be watching their mirrors for Miatas going by, comes from guys that have more money than talent. So they go buy the fastest production car money can buy and then assume there's no way anything could possibly pass them. Yet they don't have the talent to use that fast car to its potential. Which is how a "slow" miata ends up riding their bumper through the corners.
Better to drive a slow car fast, than a fast car slow.
I think the 2nd event I attended was with the SVT Cobra Club. I remember pulling into the paddock and thinking to myself, oh man this is going to be a long weekend of giving point-bys. There were 500hp cars EVERYWHERE. I almost didn't want to go on track. Yet, by the end of the weekend, I had passed waaay more cars than had passed me. It wasn't a bad weekend at all. Was my Miata really faster than a GT500? No of course not. But in the hands of a novice driver, the miata allowed me to go faster.
The advice typically given to anyone starting out, is that horsepower should be one of the last things you add to the car. From that perspective, the Miata ticks all the boxes. It has all the right ingredients for a good track car, except horsepower.
Sidetracking aside, I don't think the OP can go wrong racing a Miata. While it may be slow-er than a Corvette, that doesn't make it boring to run. And if you end up hating it, sell it and try something else. You won't know until you try it.
I think the perception that Corvette drivers should be watching their mirrors for Miatas going by, comes from guys that have more money than talent. So they go buy the fastest production car money can buy and then assume there's no way anything could possibly pass them. Yet they don't have the talent to use that fast car to its potential. Which is how a "slow" miata ends up riding their bumper through the corners.
Better to drive a slow car fast, than a fast car slow.
I think the 2nd event I attended was with the SVT Cobra Club. I remember pulling into the paddock and thinking to myself, oh man this is going to be a long weekend of giving point-bys. There were 500hp cars EVERYWHERE. I almost didn't want to go on track. Yet, by the end of the weekend, I had passed waaay more cars than had passed me. It wasn't a bad weekend at all. Was my Miata really faster than a GT500? No of course not. But in the hands of a novice driver, the miata allowed me to go faster.
The advice typically given to anyone starting out, is that horsepower should be one of the last things you add to the car. From that perspective, the Miata ticks all the boxes. It has all the right ingredients for a good track car, except horsepower.
Sidetracking aside, I don't think the OP can go wrong racing a Miata. While it may be slow-er than a Corvette, that doesn't make it boring to run. And if you end up hating it, sell it and try something else. You won't know until you try it.