insertclevername

I do understand what you are saying. However there really is no way to go equal driver from a Corvette to an S2000. Two very different ways of how to obtain a blistering lap. The Corvette is much more forgiving, and a lot of below average drivers can still go fast around the track. The S being a momentum car will not forgive a below average driver, much more rewarding on track. I will agree that stock for stock the Z with an average driver will blow by an average driver behind the wheel of an S. Let's get real though, there are not many stock Z's or S's on track, so the stock to stock debate is mote. Plus I will mention, the tires they put on the S2000 from the factory were junk compared to the Z's. This was never, a what car is quicker debate, I mentioned it being a car I had the most fun in. That has nothing to do with lap times, and everything to do with learning and enjoying the car.

I did however post a link with hard data for others to see that the vettes and S2000's are in close competition in time attack. Also I think most track rats already know how great they are, but others may want to troll the S2K forums. To see what these cars can do with a good driver and 210ish whp. Just flat out awesome!

FASTFATBOY

An "average or below average driver" won't be fast an anything, and that's a fact. It's not the car holding him back, it's his brain.

BTW, the tires that came on a C5 Z06, also crap.

Olitho

I don't disagree with your assertion that the S2000 is a great car or that it is a very fun car. I was pointing to an assertion someone made that the S2000 is faster on some tracks. I am making the assertion that a C5 Z06 or C6 or C7 will always be faster on any track whether it be a tight circuit like Streets of Willow Springs, a super fast track like Willow Springs International, I dyno track like Auto Club Speedway/Road America or a widely varied medium speed track like BRP or Mid-Ohio.

fatbillybob

Isn't every car a momentum car?

z06801

^ exactly

Ludeaem

true, but if you've never driven a car with no torque on a track then you'd know how much torque/powerband matters. As we all know, a broad torque band can help a novice driver achieve decent lap times.

FASTFATBOY

If the car isn't moving around on entry, you're not using all the tires have to offer.

I have found in my C5 and in my former Z28 that if you don't challenge yourself and the tires on entry, you will be slow in anything you're in.

I think what's trying to be explained in the lower HP car is you can't make up any time on exit like you can in a higher HP car.

All cars are the same IMO as far as entry speed, entry speed is the key to going fast in anything. This is what makes one guy faster than the other in identical cars.

And yes, all cars are momentum cars IMO. Lower HP cars are harder to keep speed though, that's why all new drivers should start in a Miata IMO, once you bleed off too much speed in one...it's gone. You may loose 2-3 corners in a Miata vs one in a C5 with more power.

All my opinions, and all probably gibberish lol.

insertclevername

Yes you are exactly correct sir. If you really didn't understand what I meant using the context I did. Then you are just trying to be exceptional.

Fastfatboy already explained what I was meaning, by calling the S a momentum car. I was simply saying recovery from loss of momentum just kills the average lap speed.

SouthernSon

You have never had a pro driver take your car out for a few laps, have you? Give any Pro driver a few laps in any car and you will have a lap time to shoot for.

spdislife

This year I had a fellow instructor take my 04Z out with me riding shotgun. He's a NASA time trial champ in a Miata. A very talented and skilled young man. What he did with my Z in a few laps blew me away and inspired me to raise my game. Essentially he showed me what my car could do at 10/10s. I've been leaving time on the table and have taken the steps to improve my driving to match the car's capabilities. Bottom line is he's a natural and I believe whatever seat you put someone like him in, he'll excel.

spdislife

With all due respect to your assertion of being 9.5 to 10/10th, perhaps you are. I felt the same way. Then I had someone with more skill drive my car with me as a passenger and within a handful of laps I realized I was leaving time on the table. The first few years I was in HPDE I never spun the car and thought I was fast. Now I spin a number of times every season as I chase a faster time.

FASTFATBOY

This


People are running 8-9/10's of their own brains capacity/ability....not the cars capability.

kdm123

In the last 3 timed track days, I had FTD once and was second fastest overall the other two times. Each time there were about 50 other cars. No doubt there is more time on the table and a pro driver would be quicker, but my point is that a competent driver, not just a pro, can consistently drive the C5Z on the limit. That is part of what makes it such a wonderful track car.

insertclevername

To this and the earlier comment of a pro driver in my car to have a lap time to shoot for. I'm not on the track to be the fastest, I'm out there to have the most fun. When I take my street car to the track, I don't drive 7/10ths because that's all I got. I drive 7/10ths to give me a better chance at driving my car home. I don't let a pro driver lap my street car for the same reason. My experience with pro drivers are they will put your car to the limit and they can make a mistake.

Your statement here just reassures me why I don't push much past 7/10ths. I don't find it an accomplishment to spin my car on track, unless I'm in a competition. I'm not concerned with setting a faster lap than all on the track. I like to shoot for consistent lap times. Now if I can afford a track only car, I would absolutely let a pro driver lap it with me in there.

I find that if I want to go faster on track with my street car. I simply just concentrate on braking points. Push them slightly deeper lap after lap in a corner with run off. When I scare the blank out of myself, I'm getting close.

I have much respect for you guys that drive to the track push 10/10ths then drive home in your car. I have seen a few cars over the years, not make it home.

SouthernSon

Inserclevername, I was addressing your suggestion that no driver can drive two different type cars to their limit - momentum and momentum/power types. On that point we disagree. Any Pro can.

spdislife

I respect that approach. The whole idea of this sport/hobby is to have fun. For me I want to improve as a driver. Putting a pro in the driver's seat was an opportunity to learn what the car's limits are. I'm not shooting to match his time, instead I learned what my car's limits are and how much further I can improve my driving. And if you're wondering, there were a few times I wondered if we would make it through a corner or two!

Couldn't agree more, but it is an opportunity to cross the limit and learn from it.

I'm not concerned with being one of the fastest at the track, my goal is improving my personal best with the car before I decide to take the car's performance level higher. I think many participants will work on making their cars faster before they work on making themselves faster.

Reggie Dunlop

"Your statement here just reassures me why I don't push much past 7/10ths. I don't find it an accomplishment to spin my car on track, unless I'm in a competition. I'm not concerned with setting a faster lap than all on the track. I like to shoot for consistent lap times. Now if I can afford a track only car, I would absolutely let a pro driver lap it with me in there."

WTH is 7/10ths? If you have never spun a car out you have never pushed the man or the machine very hard. But hey, if it's good enough for you, that's cool.

FASTFATBOY

This,

I am pushing my brain all the time, I'm not learning a thing at 7/10's. Until I scare myself and reach my brains fight or flight limit I can't push it upwards to go faster.

When you're scared is when you learn to manage stress and process info, you'll never find it tooling around.

"My" 7/10's is like playing on the on/off ramps near home, I can do that for free.

When I bust off a "respectable lap for that car, on that track,on that tire"....thats what I loaded up all my junk for and spent all that money.

JeremyGSU

I wish more people took this approach. It's usually, build your car like hell and then learn to drive it first.

I can't tell you how many C6 Z06's I've passed over the last 4 years that probably were making 550-600whp in my 392whp C5 Z06 that I should have never passed but did because they didn't know how to drive it yet. It just makes you look goofy to be starting out something like that and then be slow. The same goes for high end Porsche's, Ferrari race cars, etc. There's plenty of guys with every make that go right to the top and start at the bottom.

insertclevername

Why I would need to explain this to a veteran of the track is odd, but I'll comply since you asked.

7/10ths means that I'm chasing the balance in 7 out of 10 corners. 7/10ths means that I'm on the threshold of ABS in 7 out of 10 braking zones. 7/10ths means I'm passing 7 out of 10 cars on track.

Enjoy your track time the way you want, and I'll do mine the same.