c6moneypit

I am running HPDE's with a Modified 2013 Grand Sport on R888 tires. I am currently using the stock Z06 brake system that came with the car. I have upgraded to braided SS lines, Castrol SRF fluid, and Carbotech XP10 fronts, XP8 rears. Also running Quantum brake cooling system and stoptech vented and slotted rotors. The brakes seem to be well matched to the tires. However, I wanted to get opinions from members that regularly track their vettes: am I fine running the system I have, or should an aftermarket brake upgrade be considered in the future? Specifically, should the stock z06 calipers remain reliable and withstand regular HPDE events?

Rob Willis

I upgraded my C6 GSs brakes when I started driving fast enough to have doubt in them after a 25min session.

It sounds like you have done all the little things to make them as good as possible.

When you start to doubt them or lose trust in them its time to upgrade.

Thats just all my .02 cents.

Adam@Amp'dAutosport.com

For right now to improve your braking I would move to XP12 or even XP20 front XP10 rear with the tires you are using. Obviously I would use up the pads you have left first. The big thing is how long do you plan on keeping the car because a BBK is a few thousand dollars but the pads are a lot cheaper than the pads for your current caliper.

Suns_PSD

I'm going thru the same decision making process. My OEM Z06 brakes are pretty inadequate with just pads/ fluid/ and SS lines.

I have decided on Racing Brake rotors all around, Motul fluid, SS lines, EBC Blues, OEM calipers, and some basic cooling ducts rigged up. I thnk that this set up will be more than adequate. I can kill the OEM set up in 2-3 laps.

ponycar

I would say Adam is right on the money. If the current set up is maintained and the pads are correct for your tires and driving style they will work well. The biggest complaint for the stock calipers is time required to change pads at the track. I run an AP BBK on my C5 and love the ease of use. I run with several guys who run stock C6 GS/ Z06 brakes at a high level with no problems, but they do dislike the pad change and expense. I am envious of the GS. I think you have the best HPDE car out there.

TKOGTO

Sans the pads you use, I've ran the same brake setup in my GS for several years and IMO it held up just fine and provided more than adequate performance. As I tracked more and more, I ended up buying Wilwood calipers to get around the following 1) PITA pad change. If you switch pads back and forth for street/track, the OEM calipers get tiresome real fast 2) thin OEM pads. Thicker pads last longer and provide better thermal protection 3) pricey replacement costs. New pads are cheaper and better, a win-win.

If the cost of new calipers or a BBK is prohibitive, you might consider a good 2 piece rotor. Better cooling/less heat helps make everything perform better/last longer.

In the end, if you track frequently, you will not regret a brake upgrade. Like many before me, I kicked myself for not doing it earlier.

c6moneypit

Sounds like the concensus is that my current system should last if kept up. Using xp 12 or xp 24 once my current pads are used up is the plan. I agree it sucks changing the pads. I have been running the xp 10 on the street because of this. I have a friend with ap racing brakes and he loves the ease of pad swapping. But they are very expensive. Would adding 2 piece rotors to my current set up yield a significant cooling advantage over 1 piece rotors im running now?

c6moneypit

What 2 piece rotor woud you recommend? And would i do all 4 rotors or could i just do front? Also what caliper upgrade or bbk system woud be recommended? Again do front and rear if i go that route, or just front?

Rob Willis

AP Racings 8350 caliper on my C6 GS was great.

Just the front would more then suffice for you, 98.9% sure.

dizzy8085

What pads did you run and what kind of life did you get out of them?

I'm contemplating that setup for my grand sport.

Rob Willis

Carbotech xp10 or 12 in front and 8s or 10s in rear (oem rear caliper and rotor).

Probably 2-3 trackdays (5-6 20/25min sessions) plus the street miles between. Should have swapped back n forth, but didn't.
Intermediate group and I consider myself fairly fast there.

Carbotechs seem somewhat softer (wear wise) compared to Hawks and PFC01s I used when I had my z51 '07. However they also seem easier on rotors and rim and body cleanup is SO much easier.

Bill Dearborn

When I purchased my 08 Z in 09 everybody told me I should upgrade to StopTechs before I even went to the track (I had been tracking my 3 previous cars extensively). I decided to make the stock brakes work. That was a mistake. I spent so much money on them for pads and rotors that I could have easily popped for the StopTechs right away. The calipers have 3 main problems. Thin pads, a tendency to boil the brake fluid no matter how good it is and the pad retaining pins.

I had plenty of problems with boiling the brake fluid in the stock calipers. The first indication I would get is when braking into a corner the car would start pulling one way or the other as one or the other front caliper lost stopping capability, if I kept driving for a few more laps I would lose all braking capability as both front calipers boiled the fluid and the dual diagonal brake system didn't work any more. If I pulled off the track before that happened I had to be careful in pit lane and driving around the paddock. The lack of cooling air at speeds below 45 mph would let the fluid boil and I almost ran over a guy who walked in front of me because the brakes boiled. Luckily, I was only going 5 mph. The other problem with the stock calipers is the pad retainer bolts freeze into the caliper (I actually broke off one of my Torx bits in the head of one of the bolts). Those PIAs wouldn't move when cold. However, they do have the potential to move when hot. One day I was exiting the bus stop at the Glen when I felt a funny buzzy vibration in the steering and a similar loud buzzing sound coming from the right front. The noise was coming as the car was making a left before the right into the carousel turn. As soon as I turned the steering wheel to the right the noise stopped. I limped the car back to the garage where we found one of those frozen bolts had backed out of the caliper and rubbed on the backside of the wheel spoke. When I reported that on the forum several other members reported similar incidents. One had a wheel ruined (I was lucky since my wheel survived), another had the bolt fall out on the inside of the caliper and lost brake pads while driving down the road. Either of those two conditions could cause an extremely dangerous situation. That is when I decided to go with Wilwood calipers and once I did that I felt I should have done the upgrade 3 years earlier. Pad life was much better, rotor life was somewhat better, brake fluid boiling issues went down considerably. I know plenty of people swear by them but if you change to something else you will wonder why you didn't do it long ago.

Bill

Whis9

Bill, what model wilwood do yo go with?
Front and rear?
Thanks

c6moneypit

Thanks for the incite. What BBK systems should I consider? There are so many options I don't know which ones to consider.

dp201

Is it worth buying just the Wilwood Aero6 calipers that can accommodate the stock rotors and pads for $900, or is it just a waste unless you totally upgrade to the entire BBK for several thousand?

JRitt@essex

Over the past decade I've helped hundreds of C6 Z06/Grand Sport owners with their brakes. There are some serious deficiencies in the OEM brakes on that car, with both the calipers and discs. While throwing band-aid solutions at the car appear less expensive, they will end up costing you in the long-run. Even more importantly, they will perpetually inhibit your fun with the car, and limit your ability to improve your consistency and confidence.

The OEM calipers are not particularly effective. You've already seen all of the issues with the one-piece pads vs. padlets, funky pins/bolts that make swapping pads a hassle. Those calipers also weigh a ton, have aluminum pistons, not terribly stiff given their mass...the list goes on.

The OEM discs don't flow much air, they're heavy, not terribly crack-resistant...again, the list goes on.

For those on a budget who are serious about tracking their car, my recommendation on this particular trim level (C6 Z or Grand Sport) is to go with the best front brake system you can afford. Most people go through 3-4 sets of front pads and or discs for every set of rears. The front is where these cars have the biggest issues, and where you'll reap the greatest dividends from a complete big brake kit. The OEM rears have all the same problems as the front, but they aren't as much of an issue because they simply don't see as much abuse as the fronts on these cars. Later on if you decide you need, or just want, a rear BBK, we have matching ones that can be added on and will integrate seamlessly.

Rather than going with 2-piece discs at all four corners, that money will be far better spent if you go with a killer front brake kit and just continuing on with the rear setup you're running now (upgraded rear pads, discs, lines). The rears will hold up okay, and there is no sense throwing money at the rear if they aren't problematic.

Here's what one of our complete front brake kits will give you:
1. Confidence- There's no replacement for diving into a turn from any speed, on any track, and not having to even think about your brakes. Our customers mention this word over and over again when describing our kits vs. the stock brakes.

2. Consistency- That confidence comes from consistency. Our brake kits allow you to run all day, every day without any chance of fade, and the brakes feel the same on the last lap of the day as they did on the first.

3. Convenience- You won't have to bleed between sessions. Some of our customers don't even bleed their brakes between numerous events. You won't have to fiddle around with weird hardware to swap pads, and it will take you longer to jack the car up than it will to change pads. Our kits use a pad shape that is available in every compound from every manufacturer. We also now have a bunch of people running our kits out at the track, so someone may even have spare pads on hand if you need them in a pinch. You'll be able to hang out and relax between sessions, rather than messing with the car and potentially missing out on expensive track time when they call your run group.

4. Cost- The up-front cost is higher to go with a complete front BBK, but it will save you money in the long-run. The longer you own your car, and the more frequently you go to the track, the more money you will save. One of owners on the BRZ forum wrote a cool "cost/benefit" review. He shows that our brake system paid for itself in less than a year, just on consumables savings (pads and discs). He helps run Chin Motorsports and is constantly tracking his car more than most, but it exemplifies the cost savings associated with a proper brake kit designed for heavy use. The biggest factor is that when you sell your car, you'll be able to pull off our kit and recoup 60% of your initial investment. If you spend $1,600 on two-piece front and rear Girodiscs now, you're not going to get much of anything back for them after beating up on them for a couple years. If you bought our six piston/355mm kit for $3,599, you'd likely get $2,000 back for them after running them a few years. That means your out of pocket over the long-haul is going to be about the same ($3,599-$2,000=$1,600). The big difference is that during the next few years you'll get to enjoy all of the benefits of the BBK listed above!

We recently had a Gen.5 Camaro owner come to us in a similar situation. He was running the six piston calipers off of the ZL1 on stock-style discs. He had all of the same issues we see with the C6Z/Grand Sport OEM setup...charred paint, melted dust boots, leaking bleed screws, etc. You can see a good list of the benefits of our AP Racing calipers vs. OEM painted road calipers in this blog post.

For your car I'd recommend one of our systems with a 355mm disc and six piston caliper. They will give you all you need. If you plan to go with a forced induction setup, one of our 372mm systems would be a consideration. Otherwise the 355mm kits will be perfect.

Our standard Essex/AP Racing CP5060/355mm kit is IMO the gold standard for this chassis. We have hundreds of these kits on tracks all over the world doing HPDE, Time Trials, AutoX, and wheel-to-wheel racing, and they have proven bulletproof. The 72 vane AP Racing discs in this kit were actually used in 2012 to win the Daytona Prototype championship...they are stout!






Our recently introduced Radi-CAL kits ratchet things up another level and have a few more options. You can see discussion of our Pro5000R Radi-CAL kits in this thread. The CP9660/355mm kit uses the same discs as the above kit, but the caliper adds considerable stiffness and weighs a little less than the conventional caliper design.








Our CP9668/355mm kit uses a 25mm thick pad. It's far from a necessity, but if you don't want to fiddle with pad changes, that big 'ole inch thick pad burger will give you a LOT of freedom from messing with them!









Support is another big issue. Down the road, are you going to have spare iron disc rings available when you need them? Will you have someone who can rebuild your calipers in a few years when it's time to sell them? Will you have someone to consult if you run into an issue, have a question, or want to discuss which brake pad to run? With Essex/AP Racing, you will. We've been in business over 30 years, and also forum sponsors for about 6 years now. We also frequently email and talk with customers while they're out at the track on the weekends. We know brakes, and we know these cars:


Is our front BBK a big investment? Yes it is. That said, we have never had a customer tell us that it wasn't worth what they paid. Even though our kits are the most expensive on the market, our customers consider them a great value. Most tell me it is the single biggest improvement they've made to their car for track days. The C5.R, C6.R, and C7.R's have all won Le Mans running AP Racing brake kits during the past 15-20 years. They don't run AP because they're cheap, they run them because they are the best available at any price. You can go with lesser equipment from a different brand, but none offer the laundry list of benefits that our kits offer. My advice if you can swing it is, "Do it once, do it right." All of our customers tell us they wish they had done our full kit sooner, rather than incrementally trying twenty six different things until they got it right. Our kit will free you up to worry about other things while you're at the track, not brakes. It will pay dividends for as long as you own it via low running costs, and when you sell it, it will pay you back again due to the high resale value of the premium AP Racing brand.

Feel free to ask any questions via PM, email, or phone. We are open from 8am-5pm ET, M-F, and you'll always get a live person on the phone.

0Todd TCE

Bill had one of, if not the, first W6A Front Caliper Kit. A TCE product at the time, not a Wilwood kit. They were developed on a local car here in Tempe and became the 'new' Big Caliper Kit to allow the use of 14" rotors. Something other caliper kits on the market could not fit. I believe that car/set up has seen some pretty severe duty over the past 6-8yrs and is still going strong albeit a new owner.

We produced a number of these until other Dealers wanted them and Wilwood didn't know what they were talking about...then they realized we were producing something that would sell via many dealers if they took it in house rather than one of their specialty shops doing it. The good news is that the price went down. The bad news; it was not longer a TCE exclusive. Oh well, win some....

Over time Bill came back to add the 2pc hat/rotors. His reasons have been covered many times but in short I believe he'll tell you that he finds longer life now from these than he did the one piece. And of course improved cooling, less weight etc etc. *It should be noted however that the 2pc hat/rotor used on that is NOT the same parts found in the complete 14.25" big brake kit. Close but not identical part number on the hat. If you're in the market for a complete kit I'd urge buyers to do so at one time and save money doing so.

Also the former, top loading W6A was replaced/updated by the Aero6 model due to the request of buyers wanting a stiffer caliper for track use. The Aero series is not quite as user friendly with the need to remove the caliper from the mount to service the pads. We still have (and sell) a limited number of the W6A parts by special request.

A couple years ago now TCE released a similar FNSL4 Rear Caliper Kit for use on 13.4" Z06 rear rotors. That too went well for those looking for a good value, affordable kit using Autozone discs and the disposable format. Of course it's not on par with complete kits again...but not everyone wants (or needs) all the fluff. Just good calipers on affordable blanks is fine. This kit seemingly caught the eye of other Dealers again too. It's now also a Wilwood factory produced kit, go figure. lol


TCE has them available. Fronts, Rears, or both. For the most die hard track car clearly there are better and more indepth options. (we have them too) but for someone looking for value at well under $1700 for four corners it's pretty hard to beat.

theseal

I'll take what these great posts said one step further. Don't even think of tracking the car with those stock brakes. My new 08 with 3000 street miles on them made 3 laps at heartland park before the pedal started getting slightly spongy into the last turn before the front straight. Not bad at all. But being new and disappointed, I just cooled down at about 100 the whole straight instead of nearly 150. At the end of the straight the pedal went to the floor and stuck there, with zero g's braking. No brakes at all. I did the handbrake, downshift, and slalom fences and ambulances thing, and luckily didn't die or kill anyone. The slight hint of fade would not normally have convinced anyone to let up yet. If I had been going 140+ I would probably be dead.

Turns out both front calipers warped enough in 3 laps for Pistons and fluid to shoot out of them, and of course the grossly negligent (IMO) diagonal hydraulics leave you with no brakes in this event.

These parts are show parts only, and barely fit for street use (and a poor and in efficient design even for that), and completely and totally unfit for track use. Someone had a brother in law deal with GM for this garbage to be sourced on the vettes.

Get a good brake kit. Wilwood are very good. Stoptech incredible. I am sure ap, brembo, etc. are great. If you want low entry price, use base c6 or c5 brakes, they are MUCH better than c6z.

Point of reference, the same guy that can't make 3 laps on stock c6z stuff in a stock z can make 10 track days in a 700hp vette on one set of pads on my stoptechs, and I have 20 track days on the rotors and they don't even have hairline cracks. Honestly I can't even believe how good they are.

I have them on a stock c5z as well and honestly only bleed them out of habit, they have never faded or shown signs of any heat issues, and that's at Cota in 100 degree days, with no air ducting.

My 99 with wilwoods was pretty rock solid too.

If you track a few times a year on street tires, get base c6 or c5 brakes, use good fluid and race pads for those days. If you track more, get real brakes.

theseal

Ps, the wilwood kit i had had thick 1.25+ " rotors and big 6 piston calipers with the thick pads. Some of their off the shelf stuff uses the thin 1.1 rotors and the thinner pads too. Don't think they would be worth the money, get the big stuff.

theseal

Pps, the stoptechs saved 20 lbs of unsprung weight from the stock c6z garbage too. Bonus!