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Bill, the C5Z is still running strong, however the diff just started to whine, sounds like a turbo charger now, so just a matter of time before that thing goes. Sucks because I had the engine/drivetrain out over the winter and did a lot of heat shielding in addition to the clutch and torque tube rebuild...guess I'll have to take some more of that apart again.
Hope you get up to WGI again, it would be worth the trip.
How many track miles are on that car now? C5Zs are close to being bulletproof but like the One Horse Shay ( https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Deacon's_Masterpiece ) they will eventually fail. Maybe it is a hint that you need to move to a new car. Maybe a C7Z?
I did forget one thing...the old curbing was not all that upsetting, but NASA was saying stay off the new curbing. It is much more aggressive--tall humps spaced so that it disrupts the car. It looks like the curbing on the infield at Pocono, but painted. The exception is the bus stop, which is a different kind of curbing--more like small ramps that the tire goes up then drops onto the next ramp. We bounded over those with no problem, but the others are not so forgiving--you lose a lot of grip, and lots of vibration.
Interesting, the contrast on the bus stop vs OP.
OP: "The biggest change I noticed was the turtles in the bus stop; they are way more disruptive than the old ones...I was accustomed to putting the entire car up on the old ones, I did that once before the track walk and damn that was a surprise... Clipping them slightly with the unweighted tire results in no more than a bit of noise. Looking at the rubber laid on them you can see where tires are airborne before contacting the next one."
Yours: "...The exception is the bus stop, which is a different kind of curbing--more like small ramps that the tire goes up then drops onto the next ramp. We bounded over those with no problem."
Interesting, the contrast on the bus stop vs OP.
OP: "The biggest change I noticed was the turtles in the bus stop; they are way more disruptive than the old ones...I was accustomed to putting the entire car up on the old ones, I did that once before the track walk and damn that was a surprise... Clipping them slightly with the unweighted tire results in no more than a bit of noise. Looking at the rubber laid on them you can see where tires are airborne before contacting the next one."
Yours: "...The exception is the bus stop, which is a different kind of curbing--more like small ramps that the tire goes up then drops onto the next ramp. We bounded over those with no problem."
I don't see a contrast. They are both saying the same thing. Stay off the bus stop rumble strips which is pretty much what we had to do before they trimmed them for the IRL guys a number of years ago.
Bill - we agree on the OP but apex26 indicated "NASA was saying stay off the new curbing. It is much more aggressive--tall humps spaced so that it disrupts the car... The exception is the bus stop, which is a different kind of curbing--more like small ramps that the tire goes up then drops onto the next ramp. Later he adds, We bounded over those with no problem,.
I read that as opposite of the OP. If I am missing something, maybe apex26 can straighten it out.
Bill - we agree on the OP but apex26 indicated "NASA was saying stay off the new curbing. It is much more aggressive--tall humps spaced so that it disrupts the car... The exception is the bus stop, which is a different kind of curbing--more like small ramps that the tire goes up then drops onto the next ramp. Later he adds, We bounded over those with no problem,.
I read that as opposite of the OP. If I am missing something, maybe apex26 can straighten it out.
I suppose the new curbing in the bus stop is more aggressive than it used to be, but that in my opinion, driving my car, was not the biggest change. I continue to drive over the curb turning into the bus stop with no profound difference in results. The other curbing is really rough, so for instance in turn one using the curbing now is pretty uncomfortable, and probably not the fast way--again an opinion. Your car is going to react differently, and your driving style is somewhat different. The OP also opined that the surface is less dense. I'm kicking myself for not taking a close up photo of the surface--it appeared more dense to me and very, very smooth. So, effectively you have more tire in contact with the surface, which would explain something everyone agrees on---much more grip. All we can do is report what we experience, and hope some of it applies to others as well. It appears the issue about the curbing is a difference of degree and opinion, not diametrically opposed experiences.
When Keith mentioned the curbing got rougher I was thinking it might have gone back to the way it was a long time ago. The last few years I ran at the Glen the curbing on the entrance to the bus stop was flattened and smoothed to the point you could drive the whole car on it. Just point straight in and ride the right side curbing followed by crossing the asphalt and riding on the left side curbing. However, this is what it looked like in 2004 (and if I remember correctly it was smoothed some from the initial curbing installed in 92):
If you rode up on the higher section of the old curbing it would throw the car pretty well. If you watched the video I took this picture from you would notice none of the advanced level drivers were running on any of the curbs back then.
So I raced Watkins Glen last weekend with Chumpcar and the pavement is superb. There are tons of grip everywhere and it really allows young drivers like myself to experiment with various lines without penalty. I'm already thinking of ways to get the Vette up there next year.
Update on bus stop curbing. I was back there two weeks ago. Rumor is that the upper curbing will be ground down and made tamer. I don't know if it was IRL or NASCAR that voiced the objections to the current curbing...and since it is rumor, it could all be BS, time will tell.
The grip level has improved dramatically since day 1 that the track was open.
At my next event, IRL will be there for tire testing...should be amazing to watch.
You can still whack the upper curbing as is. In my car, at just over 90 with the wheels straight, it upsets the car to the extent that the following left turn is less settled, deeper, and a little slower on exit. The available grip in the bus stop is amazing and you can carry more speed through there now.
In a race situation, I agree it is probably faster to come in at the former shallow angle, "bound" over the curbing, and catch the car closer to the second set of inside curbing, and leap over the curbing at exit. For HDPE, that is a bit more abuse than I want to subject my driveline to. I average 15 days/year at WGI.
My experience with the curbing inside T1 is that it is totally tame. Guess our mileage varies
Update on bus stop curbing. I was back there two weeks ago. Rumor is that the upper curbing will be ground down and made tamer. I don't know if it was IRL or NASCAR that voiced the objections to the current curbing...and since it is rumor, it could all be BS, time will tell.
The grip level has improved dramatically since day 1 that the track was open.
At my next event, IRL will be there for tire testing...should be amazing to watch.
You can still whack the upper curbing as is. In my car, at just over 90 with the wheels straight, it upsets the car to the extent that the following left turn is less settled, deeper, and a little slower on exit. The available grip in the bus stop is amazing and you can carry more speed through there now.
In a race situation, I agree it is probably faster to come in at the former shallow angle, "bound" over the curbing, and catch the car closer to the second set of inside curbing, and leap over the curbing at exit. For HDPE, that is a bit more abuse than I want to subject my driveline to. I average 15 days/year at WGI.
My experience with the curbing inside T1 is that it is totally tame. Guess our mileage varies
with all of the above comments. There is so much grip in the bus stop I never found the limit.
I was at the Glenn last week for an HDPE. It seems that there is more grip everywhere, but the biggest difference to me is how smooth the track is. There are a handful of patches that were lighter color pavement. I believe that those areas were recently ground smooth. The smoothness helps make it easier to stay on the throttle from turn 1 to the bus stop and of course around the toe. If you stay to the middle or left in 3, the off camber 'bump' is gone. If you get too far right you can feel the car get light.
Nothing has changed in relation to the camber in the turns. 5 and 6 still have more on the inside just like before. Turn 8 has a lot of camber, and without the concrete there are more options for how to take it. I'm not sure I figured out the correct line or speed in there but the turn in is not nearly as critical. Turn 9 is the same, with a slight bump going onto the nascar straight. I was entering 9 more in the middle and turning in much earlier than most of the other cars in the PCA black group and it seemed to stick. Turn 11 seems to have more grip than it used to.
I came from a Subaru where I used to run in the 2:04-2:08 range on Nitto NT01's. Last year was my first year with the 1998 C5 on Dunlop Star Specs. At an event last summer I got down to a 2:20.0. Last week I was able to run a 1:17.4 with the same exact setup. Some of that is me learning the car and I believe that some of it is the track. I'll post up a few laps later. PCA wouldn't allow me to use the driftbox, so there is no data.
As an aside, I cannot seem to get the courage to enter the bus stop above 75mph. There is plenty of grip, but for whatever reason I can't get my foot off the brake. Once I get the car through the first part I'm comfortable throttle steering through, but I know I'm loosing a bit of time on the braking zone/entrance. I'll be back in a few weeks with CMR, hopefully there will be a few others from CF there.
Last edited by mikehimself; 06-06-2016 at 11:50 AM.
I was at the Glenn last week for an HDPE. It seems that there is more grip everywhere, but the biggest difference to me is how smooth the track is. There are a handful of patches that were lighter color pavement. I believe that those areas were recently ground smooth. The smoothness helps make it easier to stay on the throttle from turn 1 to the bus stop and of course around the toe. If you stay to the middle or left in 3, the off camber 'bump' is gone. If you get too far right you can feel the car get light.
Nothing has changed in relation to the camber in the turns. 5 and 6 still have more on the inside just like before. Turn 8 has a lot of camber, and without the concrete there are more options for how to take it. I'm not sure I figured out the correct line or speed in there but the turn in is not nearly as critical. Turn 9 is the same, with a slight bump going onto the nascar straight. I was entering 9 more in the middle and turning in much earlier than most of the other cars in the PCA black group and it seemed to stick. Turn 11 seems to have more grip than it used to.
I came from a Subaru where I used to run in the 2:04-2:08 range on Nitto NT01's. Last year was my first year with the 1998 C5 on Dunlop Star Specs. At an event last summer I got down to a 2:20.0. Last week I was able to run a 1:17.4 with the same exact setup. Some of that is me learning the car and I believe that some of it is the track. I'll post up a few laps later. PCA wouldn't allow me to use the driftbox, so there is no data.
As an aside, I cannot seem to get the courage to enter the bus stop above 75mph. There is plenty of grip, but for whatever reason I can't get my foot off the brake. Once I get the car through the first part I'm comfortable throttle steering through, but I know I'm loosing a bit of time on the braking zone/entrance. I'll be back in a few weeks with CMR, hopefully there will be a few others from CF there.
Thanks for the share, talk about light hands! Awesome. It's like your corvette has a steering rack out of a mid 80's caddy. Very smooth and relaxed.
Agree with several of the comments above including:
1. "You can still whack the upper curbing as is (bus stop) . In my car, at just over 90 with the wheels straight, it upsets the car to the extent that the following left turn is less settled, deeper, and a little slower on exit. The available grip in the bus stop is amazing."
2. ...however "for HDPE, that is a bit more abuse than I want to subject my drive line to." I did it a few times for lap time but stayed off the upper part otherwise.
3. "There is so much grip in the bus stop I never found the limit." Almost any speed, where the upper curbing gave the suspension a good jolt, that caused a problem could be solved with more throttle. Not just in the bus stop either. It was drive in too hard, turn in too early, overcook the exit and just add throttle (and steering) and the grip would correct it. I brain farted exiting T3 once and lifted about 80% and had no problem. Car stayed in it and I was back to WOT almost immediately thereafter.
4. "Turn 8 has a lot (more) of camber"
I'll add:
a. I took a little more of the curbing at the apex of the carousel once and the bumps seemed to suck 1 or 2 mph away from exit speed
b. same at exit of T8
c. T9 is transformed, at least in my car. Before re-pave, my rear end would chatter through the 1st half of the turn, sometimes sliding out on the change of surfaces. Not now. Car is planted. Exit speeds increased almost 5 mph
d. the grip level in T10 made it feel like the esses from 3-4 years ago, i.e., the best turn I've ever been through. I couldn't get the car slow enough for T11 at times. Had to started braking very quickly after track out
I was back again this week, and was able to get data. Comparing last year's data in the same car, the track is definitely faster with the new pavement. I was able to get down to a 2:15.27. Keith, it was nice to meet you and draw from your experience.
I ran WGI Monday & Tuesday with Phoenix CMR. This is the first time I have been to WGI since 2010 and 2011. The pavement is world class.
We had to share the track with Firestone. If you haven't seen this it is pretty cool. IndyCars were running 1:24 laps.
I think I was 2 sec faster than before but didn't get enough clean laps to prove it. Data from other laps shows that this would have been a 2:09 lap without the traffic and maybe even faster without all the speedy dry.
The vintage racer I crew for was asked to bring his 65 Corvette to The Glen, for the "Grand Opening" in April. We were given an hour of open practice at 8am that Friday morning, and 2 more hours of practice in the afternoon, after the opening festivities.
On a well worn set of tires from last season, and a rather cool day, he went over 2 seconds quicker on the repaved long course, than that car had ever gone before!
We were looking forward to taking the car back to run the HRG vintage at next moth's SCCA Regional, but a blown engine at the SVRA Indy vintage race last weekend, ended that. We're still going to the Regional, but we'll be taking a 71 Corvette instead, one he just picked up, and hasn't been run at The Glen before.
We'll have to wait till September now, to see just how much faster the 65 is with fresh rubber and warmer weather, on the new surface.
I ran WGI Monday & Tuesday with Phoenix CMR. This is the first time I have been to WGI since 2010 and 2011. The pavement is world class.
We had to share the track with Firestone. If you haven't seen this it is pretty cool. IndyCars were running 1:24 laps.
I wanted to try and go to Joe's event but couldn't make it work out with going to VIR on the weekend. I ran all of his events from 1993 through 2013. I really liked the way he constructed the run groups with the 40 minute sessions for Groups 2 and 3 although the last few years I wasn't able to last long enough to use all 40 minutes. Did he say anything about losing one of his dates at the track?
I wanted to try and go to Joe's event but couldn't make it work out with going to VIR on the weekend. I ran all of his events from 1993 through 2013. I really liked the way he constructed the run groups with the 40 minute sessions for Groups 2 and 3 although the last few years I wasn't able to last long enough to use all 40 minutes. Did he say anything about losing one of his dates at the track?
Bill
He said demand is up with the repave and he lost his other date and doesn't expect to get it back.
He mentioned that the cost went up, and there weren't enough people willing to commit to the fall date. He dropped it. He had a record turnout for the event last week though.
Chmitz, were you the red C6Z that had a mechanical problem? I felt bad for the viper guy, it was his first track day. He shifted into second instead of 4th at the top of the esses and ended up in the armco.
04-27-2016, 10:15 PM
with all of the above comments. There is so much grip in the bus stop I never found the limit.
