cre8fun

this came up on Rennlist in '08. I read all the pages of commentary. the bottomline was that if the truck and trailer are not registered commercially (meaning you registered them in your own name) the law has provisions stating that you are not a commercial vehicle. that thread had a link to the DOT regulation. I printed it out and keep it in my glove box (don't have time to search that link right now).

here's some of the info:
CFR 390.3.f.3 (web link to CFR - Code of Federal Regulations - below)

Note big "exemption", here:

"(3) The occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise;"

FMCSA's own published "Interpretation for Part 390", which can be found here:

Question 21: Does the exemption in §390.3(f)(3) for the "occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise" apply to persons who occasionally use CMVs to transport cars, boats, horses, etc., to races, tournaments, shows or similar events, even if prize money is offered at these events?

Guidance: The exemption would apply to this kind of transportation, provided: (1) The underlying activities are not undertaken for profit, i.e., (a) prize money is declared as ordinary income for tax purposes, and (b) the cost of the underlying activities is not deducted as a business expense for tax purposes; and, where relevant; (2) corporate sponsorship is not involved. Drivers must confer with their State of licensure to determine the licensing provisions to which they are subject.

of course the officer may not know the details off hand, but having a highlighted copy on had in case of a stop should help. they also noted that having decals or stickers on trailer noting racing or product names draws attention as the cops "suspect" it's a commercial vehicle.

hope that helps

Supercharged111

What happens when you register in a state that doesn't require a declared capacity?

Moto One

OMG!!! I'v been a law breaker.... I'v towed all over the US, hauling equipment that is a Business in an enclosed 24' trailer including my car, and others. I'm guessing that because it was always behind a Suburban or other SUV I never got questioned. But then things have changed over the past decade.

Mark

apex26

I went to DMV and she pulled out the registration application, #4 says: THIS VEHICLE IS A PICK-UP TRUCK WITH AN UNLADEN WEIGHT THAT IS A MAXIMUM OF 6,000 POUNDS. THIS VEHICLE IS NEVER USED FOR COMMERCIAL PURPOSES AND DOES NOT HAVE ADVERTISING ON ANY PART OF IT. I WANT (MARK ONE) PASSENGER PLATES, COMMERCIAL PLATES.

She said her husband is a drag racer and has an enclosed trailer. NY does not declare a capacity on the registration. She said as far as DMV is concerned so long as it's not being used commercially, it's personal. She thought it was all just a scheme to collect money, but said check with enforcement. I have a retired cop researching it as to New Yorkers and out of state guys, like my brother.

This would indicate that just because a trailer is attached it is NOT a part of the pick-up so it seems ads on the rest of it should not matter. Hopefully, more later.

Pop Chevy

I found all this very interesting. I have been told that to haul my trailer in Pittsburgh, Pa. that you need to put "NOT FOR HIRE" on the side of my truck. That would show that you are not commercial. I think?

TmillerC5

Does all this stuff apply to an open trailer also. I have a 22' dove tail open trailer.

apex26

Here's what I found out researching this. Each state has it's own trailer laws, which you must obey, registered there or not. For instance, each has a maximum length for the entire rig. You have to know these laws to avoid problems. And, there is always an element of risk. For instance, NY says the maximum width is 96 inches, and 102 inches--my trailer--on designated roads (not secondary roads). I searched and could not find what roads are designated. I checked with my step son, 11 year town cop, and a brother in law, a retired town cop, both award winning cops. Neither had any knowledge of these laws and never enforced them--"the SP do that". This stuff is really important, for example, I forget which state, but I remember reading one state makes it illegal to tow ANY trailer behind an RV. One state has a pretty short overall length limit, dooming anybody towing a drag race car--the rail jobs. Some of it is here:
http://drivinglaws.aaa.com/tag/trailer-towing/

I'll finish the part about the DOT in a bit when I get my notes together...

apex26

Spoke to a DOT inspector who works NY. DOT regulations apply to vehicles with a total rig weight of 10,000 lbs AND commercial. Personal vehicles are exempted from DOT commercial regulations. Cre8fun above has that correct. In the CFR 49, part 390.3 (that's part 390, section 3) provides for an exemption for personal property (track car) not for compensation or furtherance of a commercial enterprise. This section is 6 pages long, I printed it and will highlight it and keep it in the glove box. Also, he said read question 21 and the Guidance--it is exactly on point for racers and track guys. This seems a bit ambiguous but says you can't claim prize money, write off expenses, make profits, and be non-commercial--that is the test for commercial. I note it doesn't say prize money is AVAILABLE--just that you don't get any of it. These questions are 13 pages long and exempt most all of us. I'm printing that and carrying it too. I asked the inspector what he would use to prove he was not commercial. He said be nice to the cop and explain you don't earn money. Told him I'm carrying my log book for the z06, a receipt for the event, and my last years income taxes because that would be proof--he agreed. He did say if you're towing with a commercial pickup with ads on the doors, etc, you are deemed commercial. He said non ad incidental stickers on the trailer or car don't make you commercial, but he sort of said it's a presumption you are--(which might shift the burden of proof onto you to prove you're not). However, he did say that even if you are not commercial, you should stop at all commercial truck stops, and advise the cop you are not commercial. He was surprised I had never been stopped by a chase car for passing them, and said cops might make you back up to the weigh station and not be pleased. In sum, I'm carrying the regs any cop would rely on to initiate a commercial inspection, a receipt to prove it's just a track day not a race, and my last couple years tax returns so it the guy is ****, he's bucking proof that there is no income or tax deductions. Because, if they do a commercial inspection on you--it's going to be a bad day. There's proof of a recent physical, special training if you're carrying stuff like bug spray, a log book, for starters. This is an arena where you swallow your pride and be polite, contrite, and respectfully inform the officer that you are not commercial. He also said towing something as large as a 24ft trailer is a "presumption" that you are commercial, allowing the cops to stop you. My brother in law thought that was a gray area, and an overreach on their part. This applies to open trailer rigs too. There may be more, this is what I learned. Luck.

henryr

land of the free.....

Han Solo

Not relevant for most but:

I've never been stopped with my open trailer. I stopped at a weigh station one time and asked if I SHOULD be stopping at them and was told no. They said since my load was in the open and obvious they could tell I was not commercial. I never have sponsor decals, only numbers and class letters.

Flying24

If your enclosed trailer has Maine plates, will they a sum it's commercial ?

fmcokc

OK, have a question for you? Here is my rig:




As you can see, I'm rather long. In most states I'm probably over length limits.

If I register this rig in a state like North Dakota as an RV where the length limit is 75', am I OK to drive it basically anywhere without fear of breaking the other state's length limit rules?

I've never been stopped but I always try to make my runs at night.

duramaxsky

You are limited to 65 feet under federal law. That would be under truck and trailer. Under STAA for tractor tailer the limits are trailer length. Not overall unless it is permitted long trailers or triples. Some routes are not STAA and may have shorter limits but those are not as common these days. STAA has been around since 1980.

Nokones

The Arizona issue is pretty much true. A lot of the other states are the same way.

However, almost all of the states must honor the driver's license and registrations laws of the other states. The states agree to what is called a Driver's License Compact Agreement. The compact is written into the law of each state you are visiting as long as your home state has also agreed to the Compact. The registration is a reciprocity agreement among the states. In otherwords, what is legal in your home state is also legal in the state you are visiting.

In California, Commercial Use is well defined in the Vehicle Code. Hauling a Racecar with stickers and collecting money as a prize does not make your vehicle combination a commercial vehicle and the other states have to honor what is legal in California insofar to the vehicle.

What the other states, like Arizona, are doing is trying to determine if you are a commercial vendor, not necessarily a commercial vehicle. In otherwords, are you making money in their state and not paying their taxes thus, you must have a commercial permit to operate in their state.

In California, if you are towing a tag trailer that has over 10,001 pounds of laden weight or GVWR or a Fifth-Wheel over 15,001 pounds of laden weight or GVWR, you must have a Class A driver's license. A Non-Commercial Class A will suffice as long as you are not operating as a commercial entity driving/hauling for profit/compensation. However, you cannot drive a vehicle combination over 26,001 pounds if you only have a Class C or a Non-Commercial Class A driver's license.

I have a Non-Commercial Class A because my tag trailer weights over 10,000 pounds with my car and equipment, and my trailer is rated at 15,000 pounds.

You'll be surprised on how many RV and us drivers with racecar trailers are involved in traffic collisions throughout the country that are driving either out of class with the driver's licenses and/or have exceed the rated weight rating of the trailer and/or combined vehicle weight ratings. In the last 10 years the accidents have sky rocketed.

A lot of states are being pro-active with their enforcement. They are checking the weight ratings of the tires, axles, hitch couplers, etc. in addition to the class of your driver's license. You'll be surprised on how many drivers have exceed the weight ratings of their vehicles and vehicle equipment.

A lot of states require all vehicles with trailer enter their scales rather if you are commercial or not. Some of those states do exempt RV vehicles. If it says enter you better enter.

If you are pulling your racecar trailer with a pickup you are not a RV by definition of the law. If your pickup has a license plate and your paying a weight fee in addition to the normal base registration fee, more than likely, your plates are a commercial plate thus, you are driving a commercial vehicle.

In most states, if not all of the states, an Officer has the legal right to stop any commercial vehicle for an inspection of cargo and vehicle equipment and that includes your pickup and racecar trailer.

Depending on the size of your vehicle and trailer, you better be carrying the three red reflectors or flares and have a fire extinguisher. If you are hauling racefuel or other hazardous materials, such as Nitrogen, you better have the proper Materials Safety Data Sheets and the containers and vessels better be labeled accordingly.

It may seem like harassment but, it really is not, it is about safety. The overweight RV vehicles and racecar vehicle combinations accidents are out of hand throughout the entire country. That is why some states are becoming pro-active with their enforcement because of the accidents.

Yes, some state like Arizona has the commercial vendor permit enforcement and I agree that is about revenue. However, Arizona is not the only state that wants to collect revenue on commercial vendors so this is where you need to be careful on how you answer the Officer's questions about the racecar stickers etc. The answers you give will determine if you are a commercial vendor or not. They can only tie your vehicle up if it deemed that you are driving hauling for compensation/profit

If an Officer ties you up where he says that you can't drive your vehicle because he says it is commercial, either he is making a mistake, like most of them do, or you may not have been not legal in your home state because of the weight of vehicle or vehicle combination as I have stated above.

This is a very complex and confusing subject and even most cops don't get it. Make sure that you are legal in your home state before you cross the Stateline. If you don't know the laws, visit your State Highway Patrol Commercial Enforcement office and let them inspect you.

duramaxsky

If it says enter you better enter varies by state. WA reads license plates as you pass weigh in motion. RVs do not require tonnage. Trailers licensed for personal use have tonnage on them. So the tow rig will not be licensed for your total weight. So it will say truck exit to scale every time. But it is unlawful to enter an open scale with a non commercial vehicle in WA. So if it says enter you still must not. It says TRUCK. You are not a commercial truck. Also some WA scales prohibit any entry by non commercial trucks or authorized vehicles. It is posted at the entrance in those cases. So you may not use those to weigh your rig yourself even when they are closed. One of those is Nisqually. There it is because cars use it as a bypass to an exit in traffic back ups. The cops sit in there and bust them. I went in there to weigh my truck and RV and they were doing that. I stopped and looked up at the weight for each axel. They then pulled me to the side like the cars. When asked to see my license they said because it is a CDL they would let me slide. But explained I was breaking the law. He said I should have gone up to the Federal Way scale. That one has no postings prohibiting other vehicles. They were ticketing all the cars sneaking through there. You can not see them from the freeway so when you do it is too late. All WA port of entry scales have the prohibition. OR scales are all open to weigh your vehicle but they recommend not using the port of entry as the are more crowded with trucks. They recommend closed scales for that. It is in their towing brochure which is online as well. No private vehicle must enter in OR. But unlike WA it is not unlawful when they are open. CA has signs saying NO PICKUPS at the exit. That includes when towing non commercial. I do not know if entering is unlawful there when closed. But I would assume from the sign it is not when they are open.

2 GTOs

Ok, I'm really confused. I live in NJ. I have a Yukon Denali XL (6,000 pounds) and an enclosed trailex trailer which fully loaded is about 5,000 pounds. Trailer Max on registration is 6k. So I am looking at about 11k.

I am not commercial, but I have a "corvette racing" decal on the side and C6 cross flags on the back. Denali registration is whatever the dealer would typicall do.

So what do I do next to meet NJ law?
------------
I may have figured it out. I should have registered the Denali using code 15 which is basically non commercial towing, but you pay the commercial fee and get regular passenger plates. My guess is that the registration would be for the combined weight of the vehicle and the loaded trailer. I'm open to any other interpretation. I can't believe anyone is actually doing this. And it also looks like in NJ you need to stop for a weigh station if you are over 10k. Does not seem to say only commercial (basing this on the AAA website).

http://www.nj.gov/mvc/Vehicle/NonCommercial.htm
http://www.nj.gov/mvc/Commercial/fees/fees_code15.htm
http://drivinglaws.aaa.com/tag/weigh-stations/

Nokones

I would take a picture of your trailer with the "Corvette Racing" and the Cross Flags and take that picture to the State entity that enforces those regulations and ask them if the aforementioned would deem your trailer in non-compliance with the items listed in the "rules and regulations" insofar as to the labeling and signage on trailers as listed on the information in the link you provided.

If that is the case, New Jersey may be just as bad, if not worst, than Arizona and Nebraska.

As far as the weight ratings, it appears that you are Ok. However, I am not familiar with the New Jersey driver's license and registration regulations but, you better check your driver's license and see what class restrictions you have with your respective driver's license. It should be listed on your driver's license what your class restrictions are.

Make sure that your axle(s), tongue weight, and the tire weight ratings are to make sure that you have not exceed those ratings for your load.

Hopefully, you have trailer rated tires and not passenger rated tires.

2 GTOs

Tires and tongue weight are fine, I went through all that. I'm fine taking off the decals anyway. I was becoming less comfortable advertising to the thieves. I am pretty sure I will need to change the registration class and weight rating. I doubt that will be simple in NJ.

EdsC6Z06

So I read this thread as I prepare to drive from NJ to Watkins Glen in two weeks! I have a non-commercial plated HD Pick up and an unmarked 24ft. enclosed trailer. Truck/trailer is well under it's rated tow capacity and the car is my regular street legal/street driven Z06. ( no stickers) I assume I'm perfectly legal, but really don't need any hassles. ???

apex26

I searched DOT, and a google search, and could find no evidence of "skyrocketing' accidents from guys hauling with trailers. Even if it were true, could it be mostly the Chinese tires? (and is it resources wasted, diverted away from texting drivers--probably but the fines are ten times larger so it's about the money). I did find that sales have risen steadily, so each year there are many more trailers on the roads. All the posts indicate that cops aren't looking for people making money in their state and not paying taxes. That's the function of the respective state tax authorities, not cops. Cops deem rigs commercial, and it opens up a commercial DOT inspection, not an inquiry into income tax scrutiny. These are government men with guns. If they say put your hands behind your back and you raise your hand to itch your nose, they have the right to unload their Glock into you. And they have a badge--which means that if you do get shot, they know that anyone involved in a shooting can't shut up, so they are trained to say nothing, are whisked away by fellow officers, and they speak through a media rep--the opposite of what happens to a citizen when they shoot someone in self defense and are interrogated while still in shock. This is an area where almost all of us try really hard to comply, yet look at the confusion! Such confusion REWARDS the governments richly, there is no incentive to reform. It's very similar to being stopped in 1930's Germany under the Socialist Party--vast, arbitrary rules, and a very heavy hand. I do agree that among cops "most make mistakes"--but you are going to pay, not them. My brother in law says police are given grant money for such areas of increased enforcement, and the unspoken rule is that it pays for itself in increased fines--money taken by force. Anyone comfortable with all this has lost so much of their freedoms that they have the oppressed mindset of a surf. Sorry, just an opinion, which is still legal, but not by much.