EdsC6Z06

I've never been passed on the track by a Camaro. Just sayin.

jlutherva

Proceed with extreme caution when modifying the front end of the ZL-1 Camaro. I have a repeat student that put in a larger heat exchanger and re-tuned and his car lost HP. A friend and I had dinner with John Heinricy at a NCM MSP event and I asked him about that and and he said that everything about sizing and the air flow through Camaro grill area had been tested and optimized by GM during the development of the ZL-1 and there was nothing left to improve.

If others have had better results, please let me know. My student is still struggling with his car.

Jim

Rexracer77

I know it was already covered, but at VIR the 1LE was a little slower then the Z28, 2:54.8 vs 2:50.9 for the Z28

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...p-2016-feature

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...d-more-feature

compared to a 2011 c6 Z06 at 2:53.9

for $44k NEW with warranty, the 1LE SS Camaro makes a compelling argument, but it all depends on what you want out of a car.

danh52

I came from a 2013 Camaro 1LE and can give my thoughts.

The Camaro is a big heavy car with poor visibility. It's easier to drive fast on the track than my 02 ZO6. The Z is way more "twitchy" mid corner to exit. I think it's due to both lighter weight and more HP (mine is 430 WHP vs 426 crank HP). After replacing some of the softer bushings with poly the Camaro had very good steering feel, somewhat better than my Z, with very good turn in.

I was into the Camaro 40K plus $2000 in mods. It still needed a better oil cooler and diff cooler but as setup it was a good track package.

My Z cost me $24k last summer, has an LS3 with cam and headers, extra coolers and bigger rad and many other track oriented improvements. It's scary fast (to me) and only needs new tires to be track ready.

I would rather drive the Z than the Camaro on the street due to the light weight (instant throttle response) and better visibility. It's just way more fun.

I do miss the more modern electronics and the Z desperately needs a better seat but I wouldn't go back to the Camaro after having both.

Rexracer77

The 2013 1LE was a 3:01.5 lap time at VIR vs the new ones 2:54.8. So while the new ones visibility still stucks, they have made improvements (oil coolers), and the new car is 200 lbs lighter then the old car.

Im starting to sound like a Camaro salesman.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...d-more-feature

danh52

That's great! So at 200 lbs lighter the new Camaro weighs in near 3800 lbs? My Camaro weighed 4090 on the local truck scales and my Z weighs 3100 lbs on the same scale.

The new Camaro is lighter and faster than the G5 version but still fat and slower than my C5 ZO6. It did have way better brakes, CTSV 6 piston Brembo's which only cost me $1100 to install and I think are an option on the G6 Camaros.

The poor visibility when driving on the street was the deal killer for me. I ended up not driving the Camaro most of the time because of it.

My Camaro was a great car but the Z is more fun to drive.

z28lt1

Good thoughts from someone who has experience. That said, you can't compare a 5th Gen 1LE with a 6th Gen ZL1. In face, I drove a 5th Gen SS back to back with a 5th Gen ZL1, and despite the ZL1 being a tad heavier, it drove much, much lighter. Still didn't feel as light as my C6 (and it is actually way heavier). but you didn't feel the heft of the Camaro as you did in the SS. I'm sure the 1LE would help some, but still don't think it hides the weight as well as the Zl1. Then add to the fact the 6th gen is a whole new smaller, lighter platform.... i liked it so much, the ZL1 became the track car.

I think it's already been said, but at least on the 5th Gen Zl1 (and we will have to see for the 6th) GM spent a lot of effort in making that car pretty track ready. They seem to do just fine bone stock on the track. Eventually, some timing gets pulled because the temp gets a little high, but otherwise, you can drive it as is. Even the pads are fine advanced beginners/intermediate HPDE drivers. Not sure we've seen Corvettes be that track ready. Will be interesting to see how the 6th generation does on the track with some of the cooling issues the Z06 has with the similar motor.

That said, when all else is equal, lighter usually gets the vote.

FASTFATBOY

In the Motor Trend ....whatever test is was...best drivers car I think had Pobst run a quicker lap in the 2016 1LE on a PSS I think than the 5th Gen Z28 ran on a Trofeo tire.

See if I can find it.

A New ZL1 with all that weight will DEVOUR tires and brake pads like a fat kid in a candy shop.

@23:40

froggy47

good point.

conradb

If you're looking for track performance, the far lighter car that get significantly better lateral grip is your best choice - C6Z

I'm beating people with Z/28 camaros on the Autoclub Speedway in my C5Z, which has a MASSIVE straightaway that they leave me in the dust on. Of course, driver skill is a big factor, but these guys were pretty good. No competition against a 3000lbs 405HP track rat with sticky tires and awesome brakes.

LagunaSecaZ06

This thread that I wore for Camaro5, may be helpful.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showpo...32&postcount=1

Soloontario

Newer electronics obviously help with some things but can't re-write the laws of physics. Power/wgt is important in drag strips but when hauling that extra 600 lb around corners or down from speed, the heavier car loses every time.

Given a choice between a 200hp/2000lb car and a 400hp/4000lb car running on the same tires, I think on the majority of race tracks we all know which car would win.

Of course, new electronics help especially with your driving errors but personally I drive with the nannies off for a lot more fun factor and would never consider an automatic for track use.

BTW, comparing lap times on different days with different tires with different drivers, is rarely useful.

I came to my C5Z from 97 and 02 Camaros with lots of suspension mods. My Camaros with the suspension mods were actually a bit easier to drive (and were a svelte 3400 lb) but the C5Z is much faster bone stock.

Stick with the Corvette, whichever model you chose.

speedmon

Since this is in the Roadracing section, I'll assume you're gonna track the car.

C6Z or even base C7 to new ZL1 is no comparison.
The vettes are way lighter and lower and the LT4 engine has that blower that overheats in about 60 seconds and pulls timing and overheats everything, and total power loss.....total design flaw.

The ZL1 future will be just like the Z06.....lots of time parked at the tracks (road and drags) and crashing resale values.

If you must go Camaro (for daily drivability or something), go 1LE and put a centri blower+meth on it. You'll make north of 600whp and not overheat.....even spinning 6K for 25 minutes.

FASTFATBOY

The new ZL1 is designed first and foremost a track car, I don't see them parked due to overheating much unless its in Texas in August....maybe. It has MANY large coolers from the factory, even the previous 5th Generation ZL1 did very well as a track car, a buddy in New Orleans tracks to dookie out of one.

The 5th Gen ZL1 value has held decently, there are far less of them than the Z06.

No aftermarket blower setup lives in a track environment, thats a bad move.

I believe the latest version of the C7 Z06 does much better on track than the first version did, the overheating was addressed and there is a retrofit kit for the first models to fix the overheat issues.


I will agree that a Vette is a Vette, you can't cheat physic(low center of gravity) or weight distribution. My buddy with his lightly modded 5th gen ZL1 is 3.5 seconds a lap slower than my 385whp C5 Z06 with totally stock suspension and brakes on the same tire. He has much more power and much better brakes.

speedmon

...first and foremost a track car?....That's what GM said about the Z06 and they've been chasing their tail on heat issues ever since. Don't take my word for it....find a Z06 at the track after 1 pass or 1 lap and just try to hold your hand on the blower lid....I dare ya.....total design flaw.

and...I've been using aftermarket blowers on my roadrace vettes for over 10 years......never had a blower failure or overheating problems.
I have oil starvation issues cuz I take turns too fast at high RPMs ....but that's another design issue.

LT1+centri blower > LT4 any day all day long.

FASTFATBOY

I've not seen much of an issue on the C7 Z06 on the newer models with overheat problems on track, the first model I will agree yes they had big issues.

Scroll down to where it says "Cooler heads prevail". The ZL1 has coolers on top of coolers, seems GM learned their lesson with the C7 Z06 debacle....but remains to be seen when they get into hands of guys like us, although the ZL1 looked good on it's 'Ring lap.

http://www.chevrolet.com/camaro-zl1.html

I have YET to see ONE non factory boosted application live on track....not one, in 6 years. Most are back on the trailer broken, over and over. Well I take that back, there was this one Porsche Cayman turbo.


I don't believe GM ever said the C7 Z06 was first and foremost a " track car" it was the first Z06 with a Targa roof and an automatic trans, it was a car show puke compromise and it bit Chevy in the ***. The Grand Sport that came later....track car, which evolved from the failure of the Z06.

z28lt1

Some of you guys have gone way overboard with this weight thing. If you believe half of what is written here we would all throw a blower on a Miata and call it a day. It does matter, a lot, but we are throwing that around like we don't have actual lap times to prove or disprove our theories.


First off, the C6 z06 is amazingly light for what it is, and that should not be taken for granted. But for comparison a C7 Z51 is around 400 pounds less than a 6th Gen Zl1, and a the C7 Z06 is closer to 300 pounds lighter (pending real weights on the Zl1, not GM's marketing materials...so lets see how that holds). While that is still a significant difference, 300-400 pounds isn't going to make your tire or brake budget double or anything like that. Of course, the C6 Z06 is probably more like 700 pounds lighter, so that will be more noticeable.

To the posters with the C5 Z06s, stock for stock (which is not what the OP asked about, but it's been referenced now by 2 posters) these cars don't even belong in the same discussion. The previous generation Zl1 was around 17 seconds faster on the 'Ring and 13 seconds faster at Laguna Seca than the C5 Z06. The 6th Generation Zl1 is 12 seconds faster on the 'Ring than the 5th generation Zl1. We should be getting some tests on other tracks soon, but those times will be so far apart it isn't a valid comparison, despite a stray case of what someone ran against a buddy (again, comparing stock, if you are going to modify just one, that's not really a fair comparison then...)


On the other hand, the question was about the C6 Z06. From all the "tests" the improvement in lap times from the initially tested Z06s to the Z06 with the Pilot Cup 2 tires is very noticeable. I assume mostly tires, but I'm sure the brakes and aero help a bit. Perhaps the Mag shocks? Anyway, the Gen 5 Zl1 was sandwiched between them on times at at Laguna Seca, VIR, and the 'Ring. So it's pretty close. The 2017 Zl1 will be significantly faster, but is still a little behind the Z07's great 'Ring time. Will be interesting to see where it is once we get tests at the other tracks, as I suspect it may be ahead at some others.

Anyway, that was a long way of saying, despite the posts here about never being passed by a Camaro, and weight, and all of that, the actual lap times will probably be close enough that is becomes what car you prefer. Personally, if you are looking to keep the car stock and have it be a driver as well, I'd go for the Zl1, as it will be under warranty and (as I mentioned above, judging from the 5th Gen) very track ready and capable and drive like a modern car with all its creature comforts and features. If you are going to start modding it and making it more of a track focused car, you might as well start with something lighter and that has already depreciated, has strengths and weaknesses for the track already well known and having a warranty and the track readiness out of the box is much less important.

2 great cars from one great manufacturer and you really probably won't go wrong with either.

Soloontario

So Froggy, ,what do you think? Do you want a brand new car or a track car or both?. You already have a track car in your C5Z so I assume you are looking for something faster. When looking at a car for competition, you need to consider if this is autocross, short session time-attack, HPDE or full out wheel to wheel racing i.e how long are the stints you want to spend on the track? One lap of Nurburgring is still sub 10 min and heat may not be an issue there while at 30 min it might well become one.

You also have to consider how satisfying the experience is of driving the car. I know some Miata owners who absolutely love tracking their car (while still wishing for more power) and we all know C5Z and C6Z drivers who love tracking their cars. So far most of the comments on the Camaro have been about lap times and not the driving experience. Maybe there just aren't enough of them yet compared to C5Z and C6Zs (but I sure know which one I would pick)

danh52

Froggy, I would suggest you try driving a Camaro in traffic and also try negotiating a parking lot as you would if you DD it. See if the lack of visibility is a deal breaker or not.

As I said above, the Camaro is a great track car but a pain to drive in traffic and as a DD.

Try before you buy.

froggy47

I need to drive the Camaro, I've driven quite a few c6z and even the c7z and they both feel like I"m "at home" in them. I will try to at least get a ride in a Camaro, if not drive one as I instruct.

Based on "discussion" it does seem like the additional weight and less outward vision should be considerations.

Styling, I would keep my c5z, I don't love either the c6z or camaro although a black c6z with a limo tint black window is probably pretty good.

Probably I'd skip the zl1 option due to extra weight and heat and complications of the blower.

Thanks all for an excellent pro/con thread, Merry Christmas!



Link to 2016 scca solo results

https://dk1xgl0d43mu1.cloudfront.net...pdf?1476974502

The c6z and c5z dominate in A Street, while the C7's not so much in Super Street. They are pretty new & not fully developed but Porsche and Lotus own the class IMO. Hence why I moved to CAM-S no foreigners allowed.



Camaro's play in F Street with Mustangs and older BMW M's.

Heavy rain messed up 2016 solo nationals so don't draw many conclusions from the results as the conditions are not taken into account. You could have a rookie get a dry run and a prior class champ get dumped on, so it goes.