A run of really bad luck
12-20-2016, 11:28 AM
#1
Drifting
Thread Starter
A run of really bad luck
I bought Aaron Pfadt's race car as a "roller" back in 2012. I had the LS376/525 GM Performance create engine installed with a 4-stage ARE dry sump system. Other than the lube system, the rest of the engine was stock.The LS 376/525 comes with a three year warranty.
I don't abuse my engine or tranny; I short shift and usually downshift just before turn-in and, to the best of my memory, have never over rev'ed on a downshift. The rev limiter is set to 6200 RPM.
During the summer of 2014, I noticed that my speeds at key points on both VIR and Road Atlanta were down about 10 MPH. I had the car dyno'ed in August 2016 and it was down from 487 to around 450 HP. Sight mods to the tune did not significantly help.
From the shop, I went to the NCM event at MSP and it on the first morning, it developed a miss at about 4500 RPM so I pitted and then the engine noise became apparent. Pulling the valve covers disclosed a clear problem with the exhaust valve lifter on #2 cylinder. When the shop torn the engine down, they found a wiped cam and a busted lifter. They also found that the stock valve springs were all weak, 80# vs 130# spec. Most of the pistons showed very minor dings from hitting the valves.
Conclusions: The weak springs allowed the valves to float causing the decreased performance. The weak spring on the exhaust valve for #2 cylinder probably allowed the lifter to turn thereby wiping the cam lobe and destroying the lifter.
The fix: Metal particles were friggin' everywhere.
Remember, I said I had a 4-stage ARE system??? That system consists of a pump, Sprintric, 2 oil coolers, a tank and 13 hoses. We sent the hoses and coolers to a vendor that provides ultrasonic cleaning services for NASCAR and sent the pump and Spintric back to ARE for inspection and cleaning. The heads and block were disassembled by the engine builder and inspected and cleaned. He found the bottom end to be free of any damage, concluded the minor dings on the pistons would not be a problem. In hindsight, I was an idiot. 
You don't need to remind me.
The engine was reassembled with a new cam, bearings, lifters, lifter blocks, pushrods and springs. We also put large magnets on the oil filter, oil tank and oil pan to trap any stray particles that survived the cleaning process. The cam was 230-242 with .630/.630 lift as compared to 226-236 with .525/.525 lift for the ASA circle track cam that comes with the LS376/525. We dyno'ed the engine and it put about 480 HP, a major disappointment. With the bigger cam, I expected something north of 525 HP.
Off to VIR: First day, Full Course. I took it easy for most of the day, just giving students and others rides and making sure the engine was OK. Day two was the Grand Course. Late in the morning, as I was exiting the uphill esses of the Grand Curse before entering T-14 on the Full Course, the engine let go. There was a knocking followed by a blast of fire coming out of the hood vents, primarily on the right side of the car. I did a quick left exit off the track and hit the kill switch and the AFFF fire extinguisher system. The fire immediately, as in about a second, was extinguished. I'm glad I added the second engine compartment nozzle to the system! BTW - no oil on the track, only a small handful of aluminum block pieces.
What broke? No 6 piston then the rod and the block and the ARE oil pan.
What's next: I don't know. The wiped cam was $9000. I'm presently in the process of selling my Richmond home and moving to North Georgia. Until those finances settle out, nothing is going to happen. In discussing this with knowledgeable friends, I may just buy another LS376/525. I would definitely replace the valve springs. On the other hand, I may just sell the car as a Roller and take up fishing.
Is there a "Track Rats Anonymous" organization that could help me through the transition?
Jim
I don't abuse my engine or tranny; I short shift and usually downshift just before turn-in and, to the best of my memory, have never over rev'ed on a downshift. The rev limiter is set to 6200 RPM.
During the summer of 2014, I noticed that my speeds at key points on both VIR and Road Atlanta were down about 10 MPH. I had the car dyno'ed in August 2016 and it was down from 487 to around 450 HP. Sight mods to the tune did not significantly help.
From the shop, I went to the NCM event at MSP and it on the first morning, it developed a miss at about 4500 RPM so I pitted and then the engine noise became apparent. Pulling the valve covers disclosed a clear problem with the exhaust valve lifter on #2 cylinder. When the shop torn the engine down, they found a wiped cam and a busted lifter. They also found that the stock valve springs were all weak, 80# vs 130# spec. Most of the pistons showed very minor dings from hitting the valves.
Conclusions: The weak springs allowed the valves to float causing the decreased performance. The weak spring on the exhaust valve for #2 cylinder probably allowed the lifter to turn thereby wiping the cam lobe and destroying the lifter.
The fix: Metal particles were friggin' everywhere.
Remember, I said I had a 4-stage ARE system??? That system consists of a pump, Sprintric, 2 oil coolers, a tank and 13 hoses. We sent the hoses and coolers to a vendor that provides ultrasonic cleaning services for NASCAR and sent the pump and Spintric back to ARE for inspection and cleaning. The heads and block were disassembled by the engine builder and inspected and cleaned. He found the bottom end to be free of any damage, concluded the minor dings on the pistons would not be a problem. In hindsight, I was an idiot. You don't need to remind me.The engine was reassembled with a new cam, bearings, lifters, lifter blocks, pushrods and springs. We also put large magnets on the oil filter, oil tank and oil pan to trap any stray particles that survived the cleaning process. The cam was 230-242 with .630/.630 lift as compared to 226-236 with .525/.525 lift for the ASA circle track cam that comes with the LS376/525. We dyno'ed the engine and it put about 480 HP, a major disappointment. With the bigger cam, I expected something north of 525 HP.
Off to VIR: First day, Full Course. I took it easy for most of the day, just giving students and others rides and making sure the engine was OK. Day two was the Grand Course. Late in the morning, as I was exiting the uphill esses of the Grand Curse before entering T-14 on the Full Course, the engine let go. There was a knocking followed by a blast of fire coming out of the hood vents, primarily on the right side of the car. I did a quick left exit off the track and hit the kill switch and the AFFF fire extinguisher system. The fire immediately, as in about a second, was extinguished. I'm glad I added the second engine compartment nozzle to the system! BTW - no oil on the track, only a small handful of aluminum block pieces.
What broke? No 6 piston then the rod and the block and the ARE oil pan.
What's next: I don't know. The wiped cam was $9000. I'm presently in the process of selling my Richmond home and moving to North Georgia. Until those finances settle out, nothing is going to happen. In discussing this with knowledgeable friends, I may just buy another LS376/525. I would definitely replace the valve springs. On the other hand, I may just sell the car as a Roller and take up fishing.
Is there a "Track Rats Anonymous" organization that could help me through the transition?
Jim
12-20-2016, 11:50 AM
#2
Burning Brakes
I bought Aaron Pfadt's race car as a "roller" back in 2012. I had the LS376/525 GM Performance create engine installed with a 4-stage ARE dry sump system. Other than the lube system, the rest of the engine was stock.The LS 376/525 comes with a three year warranty.
I don't abuse my engine or tranny; I short shift and usually downshift just before turn-in and, to the best of my memory, have never over rev'ed on a downshift. The rev limiter is set to 6200 RPM.
During the summer of 2014, I noticed that my speeds at key points on both VIR and Road Atlanta were down about 10 MPH. I had the car dyno'ed in August 2016 and it was down from 487 to around 450 HP. Sight mods to the tune did not significantly help.
From the shop, I went to the NCM event at MSP and it on the first morning, it developed a miss at about 4500 RPM so I pitted and then the engine noise became apparent. Pulling the valve covers disclosed a clear problem with the exhaust valve lifter on #2 cylinder. When the shop torn the engine down, they found a wiped cam and a busted lifter. They also found that the stock valve springs were all weak, 80# vs 130# spec. Most of the pistons showed very minor dings from hitting the valves.
Conclusions: The weak springs allowed the valves to float causing the decreased performance. The weak spring on the exhaust valve for #2 cylinder probably allowed the lifter to turn thereby wiping the cam lobe and destroying the lifter.
The fix: Metal particles were friggin' everywhere. Remember, I said I had a 4-stage ARE system??? That system consists of a pump, Sprintric, 2 oil coolers, a tank and 13 hoses. We sent the hoses and coolers to a vendor that provides ultrasonic cleaning services for NASCAR and sent the pump and Spintric back to ARE for inspection and cleaning. The heads and block were disassembled by the engine builder and inspected and cleaned. He found the bottom end to be free of any damage, concluded the minor dings on the pistons would not be a problem. In hindsight, I was an idiot. You don't need to remind me.
The engine was reassembled with a new cam, bearings, lifters, lifter blocks, pushrods and springs. We also put large magnets on the oil filter, oil tank and oil pan to trap any stray particles that survived the cleaning process. The cam was 230-242 with .630/.630 lift as compared to 226-236 with .525/.525 lift for the ASA circle track cam that comes with the LS376/525. We dyno'ed the engine and it put about 480 HP, a major disappointment. With the bigger cam, I expected something north of 525 HP.
Off to VIR: First day, Full Course. I took it easy for most of the day, just giving students and others rides and making sure the engine was OK. Day two was the Grand Course. Late in the morning, as I was exiting the uphill esses of the Grand Curse before entering T-14 on the Full Course, the engine let go. There was a knocking followed by a blast of fire coming out of the hood vents, primarily on the right side of the car. I did a quick left exit off the track and hit the kill switch and the AFFF fire extinguisher system. The fire immediately, as in about a second, was extinguished. I'm glad I added the second engine compartment nozzle to the system! BTW - no oil on the track, only a small handful of aluminum block pieces.
What broke? No 6 piston then the rod and the block and the ARE oil pan.
What's next: I don't know. The wiped cam was $9000. I'm presently in the process of selling my Richmond home and moving to North Georgia. Until those finances settle out, nothing is going to happen. In discussing this with knowledgeable friends, I may just buy another LS376/525. I would definitely replace the valve springs. On the other hand, I may just sell the car as a Roller and take up fishing.
Is there a "Track Rats Anonymous" organization that could help me through the transition?
Jim
I don't abuse my engine or tranny; I short shift and usually downshift just before turn-in and, to the best of my memory, have never over rev'ed on a downshift. The rev limiter is set to 6200 RPM.
During the summer of 2014, I noticed that my speeds at key points on both VIR and Road Atlanta were down about 10 MPH. I had the car dyno'ed in August 2016 and it was down from 487 to around 450 HP. Sight mods to the tune did not significantly help.
From the shop, I went to the NCM event at MSP and it on the first morning, it developed a miss at about 4500 RPM so I pitted and then the engine noise became apparent. Pulling the valve covers disclosed a clear problem with the exhaust valve lifter on #2 cylinder. When the shop torn the engine down, they found a wiped cam and a busted lifter. They also found that the stock valve springs were all weak, 80# vs 130# spec. Most of the pistons showed very minor dings from hitting the valves.
Conclusions: The weak springs allowed the valves to float causing the decreased performance. The weak spring on the exhaust valve for #2 cylinder probably allowed the lifter to turn thereby wiping the cam lobe and destroying the lifter.
The fix: Metal particles were friggin' everywhere.
Remember, I said I had a 4-stage ARE system??? That system consists of a pump, Sprintric, 2 oil coolers, a tank and 13 hoses. We sent the hoses and coolers to a vendor that provides ultrasonic cleaning services for NASCAR and sent the pump and Spintric back to ARE for inspection and cleaning. The heads and block were disassembled by the engine builder and inspected and cleaned. He found the bottom end to be free of any damage, concluded the minor dings on the pistons would not be a problem. In hindsight, I was an idiot. You don't need to remind me.The engine was reassembled with a new cam, bearings, lifters, lifter blocks, pushrods and springs. We also put large magnets on the oil filter, oil tank and oil pan to trap any stray particles that survived the cleaning process. The cam was 230-242 with .630/.630 lift as compared to 226-236 with .525/.525 lift for the ASA circle track cam that comes with the LS376/525. We dyno'ed the engine and it put about 480 HP, a major disappointment. With the bigger cam, I expected something north of 525 HP.
Off to VIR: First day, Full Course. I took it easy for most of the day, just giving students and others rides and making sure the engine was OK. Day two was the Grand Course. Late in the morning, as I was exiting the uphill esses of the Grand Curse before entering T-14 on the Full Course, the engine let go. There was a knocking followed by a blast of fire coming out of the hood vents, primarily on the right side of the car. I did a quick left exit off the track and hit the kill switch and the AFFF fire extinguisher system. The fire immediately, as in about a second, was extinguished. I'm glad I added the second engine compartment nozzle to the system! BTW - no oil on the track, only a small handful of aluminum block pieces.
What broke? No 6 piston then the rod and the block and the ARE oil pan.
What's next: I don't know. The wiped cam was $9000. I'm presently in the process of selling my Richmond home and moving to North Georgia. Until those finances settle out, nothing is going to happen. In discussing this with knowledgeable friends, I may just buy another LS376/525. I would definitely replace the valve springs. On the other hand, I may just sell the car as a Roller and take up fishing.
Is there a "Track Rats Anonymous" organization that could help me through the transition?
Jim
12-20-2016, 12:14 PM
#3
Racer
That 'asa' engine is just production car internals with a hot cam. For the price of it you should be able to build something better and stronger. Like forged and balanced piston/rod/crank, LS3 or LSA block, good valves (Ferra or Manley), good springs, linked lifters etc.
Forged pistons you can get away with slight contact (slight!!) Hypereutectic not so much. Did it drop a valve? Or just piston fatigue and park the rod?
But sorry to hear that. Your having some crap luck.
Forged pistons you can get away with slight contact (slight!!) Hypereutectic not so much. Did it drop a valve? Or just piston fatigue and park the rod?
But sorry to hear that. Your having some crap luck.
Last edited by zrtman1; 12-20-2016 at 12:19 PM.
12-20-2016, 01:13 PM
#4
Supporting Vendor
Sorry about that. Hearing these awful stories at least makes me feel better about spending big bucks on the fully built and forged 383 I wound up with after my stock LS6 exploded. Good luck.
12-20-2016, 01:25 PM
#6
Burning Brakes
wouldn't the warranty have covered the 2014 problems?
But, there is one lesson not mentioned yet, valve springs wear out, and high lift cams, with big ratio rockers are rough on them.
These tend to be bullet proof, until they are not.
Sorry about the bad luck.
But, there is one lesson not mentioned yet, valve springs wear out, and high lift cams, with big ratio rockers are rough on them.
These tend to be bullet proof, until they are not.
Sorry about the bad luck.
Last edited by QKSLVRZ; 12-20-2016 at 01:25 PM.
12-20-2016, 02:36 PM
#7
Nice save on the last failure. That could have been so much worse.
You wouldn't be the idiot in hindsight with the engine situation, if anything was your builders mistake keeping damaged pistons in there. If he said you should replace them, I'd wager a bet you would have addressed the problem in one way or another.
I'd pick a new builder. LG Motorsports and Doug Rippie could build you what you want. Then have a local guy install and tune it.
You wouldn't be the idiot in hindsight with the engine situation, if anything was your builders mistake keeping damaged pistons in there. If he said you should replace them, I'd wager a bet you would have addressed the problem in one way or another.
I'd pick a new builder. LG Motorsports and Doug Rippie could build you what you want. Then have a local guy install and tune it.
12-20-2016, 06:42 PM
#10
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Jun 2005
Location: Rochester NY
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2018 C6 of Year Finalist
St. Jude Donor '10, '17
I'm real sorry to hear this OP. Good idea to take a breather as you get through the move and settle back down. I really hope this series of unfortunate and downright devastating incidents doesn't cause you to stop doing what you enjoy. In the meantime, my condolences and for what it's worth, we are here for you!
12-20-2016, 10:25 PM
#11
Melting Slicks
Put another 525 hp LS3 in the car, pull the crap stock springs off and put some PAC springs on it and go run it.
Or buy a low mile take out LS2 or LS3, put the ASA cam in it with some PAC springs and go run it.
I think the PAC 1218X will work but check and see.
Or buy a low mile take out LS2 or LS3, put the ASA cam in it with some PAC springs and go run it.
I think the PAC 1218X will work but check and see.
12-21-2016, 02:17 AM
#12
Safety Car
Been there and done that. Also on the first day with a rebuilt motor. Ultimately it did send me to the golf course as a cheaper alternate. Whether you are w2w or HPDE this is ultimately an expensive sport.
12-21-2016, 10:21 AM
#13
I feel your pain man. I lost my motor at the same event at VIR. My car has sat in the garage since then. I've barely looked at it. I really really really don't want to go through the engine building hassle / expense. and I just don't have the $$ to just drop it off at a shop, so I'm going to have to do a lot of the work myself.
I went through this with my supercharged Mustang (615rwhp). Oil pump failed, lost the motor. Had a reputable race engine shop do the short block. But apparently they didn't get the clearances right because by 1500 miles it lost all oil pressure again; every main bearing was trashed. Full rebuild again, and then sold the car. (all forged internals both times). I lost thousands of $$ in those motors, plus almost a year of being able to drive and enjoy my car. It was a scarring experience. Thus why I'm dreading working on my C5.
Bourbon seems to help tho.
I went through this with my supercharged Mustang (615rwhp). Oil pump failed, lost the motor. Had a reputable race engine shop do the short block. But apparently they didn't get the clearances right because by 1500 miles it lost all oil pressure again; every main bearing was trashed. Full rebuild again, and then sold the car. (all forged internals both times). I lost thousands of $$ in those motors, plus almost a year of being able to drive and enjoy my car. It was a scarring experience. Thus why I'm dreading working on my C5.
Bourbon seems to help tho.
12-21-2016, 02:37 PM
#16
Melting Slicks
12-21-2016, 03:18 PM
#17
Drifting
Thread Starter
12-21-2016, 03:21 PM
#18
Drifting
Thread Starter
That 'asa' engine is just production car internals with a hot cam. For the price of it you should be able to build something better and stronger. Like forged and balanced piston/rod/crank, LS3 or LSA block, good valves (Ferra or Manley), good springs, linked lifters etc.
Forged pistons you can get away with slight contact (slight!!) Hypereutectic not so much. Did it drop a valve? Or just piston fatigue and park the rod?
But sorry to hear that. Your having some crap luck.
Forged pistons you can get away with slight contact (slight!!) Hypereutectic not so much. Did it drop a valve? Or just piston fatigue and park the rod?
But sorry to hear that. Your having some crap luck.
Jim
12-21-2016, 03:24 PM
#19
Drifting
Thread Starter
Jim
12-21-2016, 03:30 PM
#20
Drifting
Thread Starter
I spoke to a knowledgeable guy at GM and he said they were fairly strict with the warranty interval but he pointed me to the department to pursue the issue, however he also said there was probably only a 10% chance of success.Yes, I'm definitely going with better springs out of the box!
Jim