Rx7Rob

No question, go with #2. Waaaaaay more fun than any autox. I think Karting (no longer available "kart till you puke" at summit) is more fun than autox but still not as good as HPDE.

You can probably get away with an M2010 helmet in the novice class.

The PCA events at my local track (Summit Point) that I register for are ~$300 for two days. They include instructors for novice / intermediate, classroom time, and skid pad time. There are usually 4 or 5 track sessions / day @ ~25 min.

Bill Dearborn

There are two types of car control. Low speed and high speed. Learning AutoX low speed car control techniques will help you learn higher speed techniques. You will understand how to handle a spin (both feet in) a lot quicker if it happens at an autocross Vs going 100 mph while rotating about the center axis of the car. One is fun and the other is scary as hell.

The biggest problem is in autocross things are done to fast. At an HPDE event you need to slow down and get smoother. In an autocross you may have time to not notice a slide beginning due to the slow speed of the car and you can make some big changes in steering and brake input to correct things. However, at 60 or maybe 80 miles per hour faster you need to feel the slide early and be able to make a smooth small correction to counter it. Sudden AutoX types of moves on a high speed track can get you in trouble very quickly.

As for HPDE instruction there are some things that instructors do take for granted. They expect you know how to turn the steering wheel and to put your feet up and down on the pedals. After that everything remains to be seen. They will be on somebody who isn't smooth, doesn't place the car in the right places on the track. Then when it comes time to work on more advanced techniques they will be coaching you into off line corner entry, getting your car back on line after an offline corner entry, etc. Car control techniques are practiced by working up to higher speeds in corners and understanding how the car feels as it approaches the limit. Just like at Spring Mountain you learn about trailing throttle oversteer, power on understeer and oversteer. The problem is it takes time to learn those things at high speeds and usually takes several schools and lots of seat time to get good at them. An Autocross school can get you pretty good in a matter of a couple of days. You may not be in the running for FTD but you won't be in the running for the slowest run of the day either.

Bill

BTTBSS

Do the EVO school, it will give you plenty of seat time and good instruction at reasonable cost. You can drive your car closer to the edge auto crossing than running open track because the speeds are lower and the consequences for an error are not usually expensive.

SouthernSon

My two cents: autox limits your time running, especially at popular events. You may only run 3 or 4 quick laps through the cones. The car balance and G loads occur quickly and are very short lived. The event becomes more social in nature.

road course: you may spend 3 to 4 hours per day in the seat. The loadings and unloadings of the suspension and lateral loads last long enough to really get the feel of the "set". You develop a keen sense of high speed maneuvering. I think this adds to a quicker learning curve (pun intended).

jesup16

While I do agree with you point "feeling" the car... you're setting FALSE expectations.

First, We're not talking about a typical autocross... rather an EVO school where it's typical to get 20+ runs! Unfortunately, that still only comes to .5 hour of seat time... but it's a very intense .5 hr.

Also, I've never been to a "local" autocross that did less than 6 runs... only regional/national events are 3 runs. The non-scca clubs I run with (like corvette club) do anywhere from 10-16 runs a day.

You will not get 3-4 hours per day seat time at a track "day", either. It's more typical to do ~4 sessions of ~20-25 minutes each... last I check that's about 80-100 minutes (1.5 hrs). Unless you know of clubs that do 9 sessions a day...

If you make that a track weekend, then yes, it's ~ 3 hrs of track time. And it's that much more wear on tires, brakes, fuel, etc plus additional costs of lodging, food, etc. The OP is trying to control costs.

Also, those 20-25 minutes consist of warm up and cool down laps... it's not flat-out for 20 minutes... so let's make sure we're setting the proper expectations.

Additionally, I've had many sessions ruined by "very novice drivers"... where I got stuck behind someone really slow who wouldn't give a point by and ended up driving through pit lane at slow speeds to find a gap in the traffic... thus costing me at least 2 laps of fun time.

Again, I agree that a HPDE is the most fun... It is far from the most cost effective: requires more prep, is hard on parts, and costs more to participate...

jesup16

The amount of autoX passes depends on the club:

SCCA-based clubs are usually ~6 runs.

Non-SCCA-based clubs might offer more. There are at least 3 clubs local to me in the Northeast that I've never had less than 10 runs... as many as 16.

There's no comparing AutoX to HPDE in regards to seat time. HPDE always wins!

However, what you should be comparing (giving the desire to control costs) is how much are you spending per minute of seat time...

You get more seat time at HPDE, but costs are much higher... typically a track day yields 90 minutes of good seat time and cost me (my costs totaled) ~ $700. That's about ~$8 per minute.
*this does not include track insurance.

You get less seat time at AutoX, but costs are much lower... but ~$40 per event for lets say 6 minutes (1 pass = 1 minute), that's ~$7 per minute.

These are just #'s I pulled off the top of my head for costs, but should be in the ballpark. As you can tell, it's actually considerably close when you look at the costs per minute...

SouthernSon

With combined run groups for the last 2 hours of the day (usually - according to number) you can easily get 4 hours PER DAY. I have on several occasions.

http://www.1010thsmotorsports.com/page/page/5236308.htm

Mordeth

I really don't want to go back and forth on this, as you clearly have experience and know what you are talking about. And I also respect the guys that autocross. It takes quite a bit of skill to do it successfully, and much is learned about control of a car. But I've done it. It lasts all of 1 - 3 minutes, in a parking lot, around some cones....and then you stand around chatting/waiting for far too long. All to do it for another 1- 3 minutes. It's cool for about 1 minute. That's it. In no way does it even remotely compare to an HPDE event. Especially for a first time, one time, and maybe only time.

At Watkins, we typically get 4 sessions per day of 20-30 minutes each. Sometimes 5 on the last day (last half hour track is "open" as many leave early). That amounts to typically 3-4 hours on an actual race track, at speed, over the weekend. That is a minimum. And you can come in early anytime you like. Stick your fist out the window at the pit exit and in you go. Also, for a first timer, he likely won't be held up by anyone on the track. My first time, the Miatas, Hondas and some beat up jalopy were passing me. One guy in 4cyl **** can who lapped me multiple times in the same session even referred to me as the "blue passing cone" (I have a blue Z06) during one of the mid-day classes, and said he appreciated the point bys. He said it in good humor (bastard! ), and it didn't bother me one bit, as I was enjoying safely driving a 600hp monster on an actual race track.

Even better, some organizations run it this way: Starting at 8:30am, 1st half hour newbies go out. 2nd half hour vets go out. After that, the track is "open" to all. However, during the first half of every hour the newbies "own" the track. The second half of every hour the "vets" own the track. So you basically get as much track time as you desire. Run the car for 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 30 minutes or whatever. Just respect who owns the track at that moment. That's it. No pressure. No racing. No drama. Everyone is cool and collected and looks out for each other.

For a 1st time, one time and possibly only time...HPDE is in my opinion the way to go. If it is within the budget, it is a no-brainer. There is no reason to compare anything here except cost, as that appears the sticking point. If he can shell out the grand, then choice is easy. If not, then parking lot and some cones are better than nothing

jesup16

AutoX isn't for everyone... but it's a great place to start.

FYI, some of the best drivers in the USA starting in AutoX: Randy Probst and Bryan Heitkotter are examples.

I agree that standing around isn't for everyone... but the OP is talking about a 1 time gift and an EVO school.

Clearwater MS- if you have no interest in helping on course, stay away from autocross...


Mordeth - Is that last "open" session available to novices? Do you really want novices mixing it up on an open track with intermediate and advanced drivers? Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me... again, I already agree with you that HPDE is the most fun.

You just confirmed that you get ~4 sessions ~20-30 minutes each or about 1.5-2hrs of seat time a day... same as I just said. That's about 3-4 hrs for a "weekend"... same as I just said. And how much extra did it cost to stay another night at the hotel, buy another days worth of food, spend money of fuel, commute to the track... did you have any brakes/tires left at the end of the weekend? These are all things that add up that make a track weekend much more expensive than a day at Autocross EVO school.



Southern Son - You might get 4 hrs as intermediate or advanced driver, but that site doesn't set that same expectation for a novice... it says ~2.5. So why would you tell the OP 4 hrs? Also, that just a sketchy name for "track day" organization. IMO, nobody should be running 10/10ths at a track day because it's just a track day. Also, seems a little sketchy in regards to safety... seeing as they are still approving SA2000 helmets.

Maybe I'm judging a book by it's cover, but safety is #1 at a track day... hence why I started my HPDE experience with a club that has a good "national" representation. If the OP gets hooked on track days... does his experience with "10/10ths track club" carry over to any other organization? My guess is probably... NO.

SouthernSon

Don't assume you know about an organization you have never run with. You have already assumed too much and wrongly about the total time one receives on track at HPDE's.

UrbanKnight

In the evo school you get tons of sessions... its a lot fo seat time. In a normal autox, you get around 5 1 minute or less runs...

SouthernSon

The group I mentioned above allots at least 2:20 p/day scheduled for each of the three run groups, with more time available when combined groups. (refer to link at top of page here)

http://www.1010thsmotorsports.com/1010ths_FORMAT.html

Most folks can't hold out for the last session. I have seen only one vehicle running the last hour of combined groups.

jesup16

To the OP:

As you can tell, there are lots of opinions and experiences on this forum. If you are interested in a HPDE (the most FUN option IMO), I suggest finding those local organizations, call the director or someone within the organization and ask them about their events. This is what I did...

FYI, my wife bought me my first track weekend (Sat & Sun) at Sebring as a birthday present... The costs was ~$350 for the weekend. However, I ended up paying these additional costs:

Hotel: ~$250 for 2 nights at Chateau Elan (on track at Sebring). This was a discounted club rate. There were cheaper options, but they were several miles away. It was much easier to leave my car in the paddock and walk to the hotel.

Food and Drink: ~$100. You could probably save some $ by packing a cooler for the weekend.

Brake Pads: I chewed through ~85% of a new set of front pads. I used about 40% of rears. ~$200 for new front pads. Sebring is hard on brakes... the track you pick may not be.

Fuel: I had to refuel twice, plus fuel to get to Sebring and home. ~$120.

Helmet Rental: $40. Can be avoided if you have a SA 2005+ helmet already.

Brake Fluid: $15 + $45 for on-track switch out. Long story short, I boiled my fluid in the first 3 laps... scared the **** out of me when my pedal started fading going into turn 7. Luckily there was a group on track that helped me flush out my fluid and put in high-temp brake fluid. I could have avoided the $45 and a lot of agony by doing my own fluid change. Again, this is somewhat track dependent and your car might already have high-temp brake fluid.

Tires: I didn't burn up a set, but put a significant amount of wear on my street tires... just make sure your tires are in good shape.

As you can tell, it's easy to surpass to get to $1000 for a track weekend. However, the hook was set and I did 2 more weekends that year at Sebring with NASA.

Also, as I got faster, I had to start upgrading things like cooling (Sebring is hot).

This will be my last post for this thread, but I want to make you aware that there are additional / hidden costs to HPDE outside of the entry fee.

I also want to set the expectation so that if you do a HPDE, you get to enjoy the day/weekend. I've seen many first timers go home after 1 or 2 sessions because their vehicle was not prepped properly.

EDIT: I also strongly recommend track day insurance. That's a cost I didn't factor. I've never had an incident (knocks on wood), but I've witness several others ranging in severity. A close friend of mine did $12k in damage when he hit a tire barrier... he had to have his wife drive to my house, pick up my truck, rent a trailer, and tow his car home... not a fun experience for him. I think the scorn from his wife was worse than the hit to the pocket book.

zrtman1

HPDE - no question. Be warned it is very addicting.

Prices vary for a weekend event - some are as low as $300. Sometimes you can find a local or regional club that does it for non profit...

Like other have said - be sure you have decent brake pads and fresh fluid.

mikeCsix

After joining the local Corvette club, I looked online for the website to the local Porsche club. For me it was Porsche Club North West. On their website were two links, one for Driver Skills, the other for Driver Education. The Driver Skills event is really fun with various car control exercises with an instructor. At the end of the day, there is an autocross track set up for you to run. All at a very reasonable cost that includes lunch.

From there, I signed up for Drivers Ed through motorsportsreg.com
The Porsche Club website will post their calendar and track so you'll know what to look for on the motorsports reg website as there are events all over the country.

My first novice day, I was speed limited to 85 down the main straight by my instructor. I also ran the course in third gear. The point was to learn the course and where to place the car on the track. My point for mentioning this is the novice event doesn't have to be hard on the car. Sure, I can burn off a set of tires and brake pads on a car in a day, but as a novice, you are 1- out to have some fun in your car in a safe environment, 2- learn where to place your car on the track and how to safely negotiate a turn at speed, and 3- track etiquette: flags, passing points, passing technique, and how to be safe.

This is a low key fun event, so check your ego at the gate and have some fun!

The serious guys will spend a lot of money. It's a strong addiction. The novices, not so much.

fmcokc

This is what I was waiting to hear...

It's also is important to consider what the desired outcome that the OP is searching for. He states that he want to "get started" with what I am assuming is high performance driving of his Corvette in some way, shape or form.

More times than not, the BEST drivers come from one of two paths-Auto-x or karts. (karts typically involve younger drivers and karts are not realistic for older drivers so not applicable here)

It is my belief that if one is searching for a path of learning in our chosen activity, you would be hard pressed to find an activity better than auto-x for learning the basics. Especially in the environment of an auto-x school. You will learn control in a lower stress situation and one that provides instant feedback from your instructor. Also, the ability to run the same corner over and over trying different braking techniques or turn in points or simply feeling the limit is so much available in the auto-x school.

Those that tout the ample seat time of HPDE fail to realize the limitations that are placed on a newbie in this scenario. Newbies need lots of short, repetitive stimulation to learn that new motor pattern. HPDE just does not allow you the time to go through a corner, pull off the track, talk about and then try it again and again in the same way that auto-x does. I have had many first time students at HPDE that after the first 3 laps are done. Sensory Overload. Time to pull in the pits and process. Many of you forget how much info is coming your way in such a short time in HPDE.

I do have to state that I have not been to EVOSchool and I do not know exactly how they are run. I am basing my statements off the events and schools at which I have instructed.

To the OP, if you want to learn about High Performance driving, are thinking that this might a new fun activity, are not ready to jump in full bore...do the EVOSchool. It will be a great way to dip your toe into a VERY deep pool.

(FYI, I very rarely participate in auto-x anymore, mostly road racing but I was racing with that great auto-x'er Randy Probst last weekend in Sebring)

phloozy

For the evo school, I just signed up for one and the say about 24 runs. This is pretty amazing seat time especially with an instructor.

v10climber

I've done both Evo Phase 1 and Phase 2 schools. I seem to remember more than 24 runs at the Phase 1.

To the OP... if it's just something you're going to do once then a HPDE would probably be my first choice. It is expensive though. I doubt you'd be able to do one for less than $1k not including track insurance. You'll put a fair amount of wear on your tires/brakes and the car will need an oil change and brake fluid flush. Plus lodging, food, gas, etc. It will add up in a hurry.

If it's something you want to get into longer term then unless you have a fair bit of disposable income auto-x is probably the way to go. I wouldn't at all be surprised if it costs the faster guys $800 per day (without track insurance) to run a vette. Auto-x is probably closer to $100 per day (including tire wear, entry fee, gas).

Personally HPDEs don't hold a lot of interest for me. I'm a fairly competitive autocrosser and part of what I enjoy about auto-x is that the track changes every event and that I can push to 10/10ths really without threat of bodily injury. There is also a big social aspect to it which is fun. If I start having more disposable income I'll probably skip HPDE and jump to NASA TT or SCCA Club Racing. A Club Racing habit is pretty expensive ($15k a year to run some of the slower classes).

woody6244

Go karts are super fun. But if you older and or not very fit you will be physically sore. That would be the least expensive for a lot of time in the seat.

I have not done Hooked on driving. But seems like a driver of ability would be made to feel comfortable.

If you like high speed or want to talk about how fast you went. Then maybe HPDE would be for you. It would take some car prep (brake fluid ect...) and you could destroy your tires and brakes.

If you like to compete autocross is great fun and not all the expensive.

I have drove 2 stoke Karts that was fun because I got to lap my 26 year old step son. HPDE was a bucket list thing and was fun. I had the right brakes and tires so was not overly expensive. I like autocross because it is a competition. If I had the money I mostly would road race.

BEZ06

The Evo (Evolution Driving) school sounds like a great learning experience.

I just looked at their site for events any where near clearwaterms's Chicago location, and unfortunately there just isn't anything until June or August. And both those events listed for Bunker Hill, IN (about 2-1/2 hours from Chicago) are listed the "Evo Advantage" course, which it explains as:

I guess that would be a good first-time learning experience, but I assume their Phase 1 Drivers School would be better. In that quote above, Evo even puts "rapid fire" in quotes, so maybe it's not really designed for first-timers, but I dunno.

So....if clearwaterms doesn't mind waiting until June or August, and what would undoubtedly require an overnight hotel stay, then the Evo school may be a good event to attend. I don't know if they have helmet rentals, or if that would require an additional couple hundred $$$ expense.

However....I'm still a fan of an HPDE type track event, and the Autobahn track in Joliet is not more than an hour from anywhere in the Chicago area.

Clearwaterms - take a look at:

http://gpstracktime.com/

Their April 2nd event sounds like it would be a GREAT first-time exposure to track driving!! They say you'll get more than 2 hours of track time (seven 20 minute sessions), instruction, and at $233 and only a day trip away with no overnight expenses, would be a VERY affordable track experience. They do recommend a fresh flush of a high temp brake fluid, but other than that your street pads (with at least 50% remaining) and street tires should work for novice level driving. You also need an SA2005 or newer helmet, but they have them available to rent for $30. So brake fluid and helmet rental would probably be about the only additional expense.

On their website, click on those links at the top for more info - the "Begginers" tab has good info, and the "FAQ" tab has info about the helmet rental and other nice to know stuff.

Bottom line - lots of options, and you'll have fun whatever you chose to do!!

.