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I could not agree more. When pushed hard on stock Grand Sport/Z06 calipers, I spent too much time bleeding brakes and changing pads (which is a PITA on stock calipers), not to mention having a pad locating pin come out while under hard braking going into Turn 5 at Road America.
I lost one at Sebring on front straight. Ruined wheel and my day.
Can't he do the same thing with the rotors he linked to? Meaning, the calipers you linked to wold work with the rotors he linked to wouldn't they?
Originally Posted by Bill Dearborn
Here is another option if you want to consider it. Going with two piece rotors with the stock calipers should still meet the rules for the autocross class you want to compete in. However, I had extremely bad life expectancy out of the Coleman Rotors. Factory rotors would go about 5 days before cracking while the Coleman's made it 7 days. For the more than double the cost of rotor rings and replacement bolts they weren't cost effective. I followed those with this set of rotors and was very happy with life and cost. http://www.wilwood.com/BrakeKits/Bra...tte&option=Z06
I got 13 track days out of them before replacing them and they had not cracked. Replacement rings although about double the cost of factory rotors were just about equivalent in consumable cost to the factory rotors due to the almost 3 times durability. They might have gone another two or three days but I replaced them at the beginning of the season.
Afterwards if you decide the stock caliper is not for you then go with this Wilwood kit which will fit right over the rotors above. It will also go over any other stock or stock replacement rotor. http://www.wilwood.com/BrakeKits/Bra...tte&option=Z06
This will let you change in steps. The combo of the Wilwood Stock Replacement Calipers and the Wilwood Stock Replacement Rotors is not the standard Wilwood BBK offering. The standard offering gives you 14.25 inch rotors with a different offset than the stock 14 inch rotors. The thing I liked about the kit is I could throw some well abused stock rotors in the back of the truck as spares for the track. If something happened to a Wilwood Rotor I didn't need to have a spare one at the track and didn't have to worry about playing around with changing rings at the track.When I got home I could call a vendor and take my time getting the ring replaced. I did ruin one Wilwood rotor when I lost a front wheel at VIR and used the rotor to drive on. It actually held up pretty well but the edges of the vanes were pretty badly dinged and a lot of dirt got forced between the two sides of the ring.
You could use the Wilwood caliper kit on about any 14 to 14.25" front rotor....but; the offset of the parts may vary a bit. Meaning you'd have to shim the bracket some to move it and keep it on rotor centerline.
When Bill and I first did this there were some limiting factors here. The first W6A caliper kits were not a Wilwood product, but rather a TCE kit. At the time Wilwood only offered the complete kit so we made our own brackets for using the stock rotor. A lot of guys thought they could buy the W6A and Wilwood kit brackets and bypass what I'd work out and maybe save some money. Didn't quite work as the full kit parts would not work on the 1pc as I had designed the TCE kit.
The demand for the TCE kit from others meant that Wilwood took to making it a factory kit. Bad for me, good for price...But at that the part still won't interchange.
A few years later this 2pc kit came out for the oe part. That kit will work with their (formerly my) caliper kit correctly but not with the factory BBK. You'll note the hat shape is dished; the offset is less than that of the BBK. And it's important to note that the wheel separation Bill had failure with is due to this hat shape: wheel pads used with this MUST fit inside the rolled diameter of the hat. Too big and there is false torque on the wheel- an air gap between the wheel and hat with the wheel sitting only on the rolled lip of the machine work. If you go this way it's crucial that you check the wheel to be sure it fits this hat correctly.
A bit hard to see..but the 'dish' in the vertical drawing on the right hand side.
The only other issue remains cost. As I've said before; this would be a far more costly way to "get there" than a full kit from the start. But yes it's doable.
You could use the Wilwood caliper kit on about any 14 to 14.25" front rotor....but; the offset of the parts may vary a bit. Meaning you'd have to shim the bracket some to move it and keep it on rotor centerline.
When Bill and I first did this there were some limiting factors here. The first W6A caliper kits were not a Wilwood product, but rather a TCE kit. At the time Wilwood only offered the complete kit so we made our own brackets for using the stock rotor. A lot of guys thought they could buy the W6A and Wilwood kit brackets and bypass what I'd work out and maybe save some money. Didn't quite work as the full kit parts would not work on the 1pc as I had designed the TCE kit.
The demand for the TCE kit from others meant that Wilwood took to making it a factory kit. Bad for me, good for price...But at that the part still won't interchange.
A few years later this 2pc kit came out for the oe part. That kit will work with their (formerly my) caliper kit correctly but not with the factory BBK. You'll note the hat shape is dished; the offset is less than that of the BBK. And it's important to note that the wheel separation Bill had failure with is due to this hat shape: wheel pads used with this MUST fit inside the rolled diameter of the hat. Too big and there is false torque on the wheel- an air gap between the wheel and hat with the wheel sitting only on the rolled lip of the machine work. If you go this way it's crucial that you check the wheel to be sure it fits this hat correctly.
A bit hard to see..but the 'dish' in the vertical drawing on the right hand side.
The only other issue remains cost. As I've said before; this would be a far more costly way to "get there" than a full kit from the start. But yes it's doable.
So, regardless of whether you buy them together or in stages, the rotors and calipers that Bill linked too are the "proper" pairing?
They will pair yes. But they are not the same parts you'll find in the complete Wilwood BBK- different hats, rotors, and caliper brackets.
Each of the kits; Caliper kit and Rotor kit are independent and sold for use with stock C5/6 parts (calipers with stock rotors and rotors with stock caliper) The functional dimensions of them are compatible with each other but NOT the same as a white box full of proper bbk parts. And at a hefty premium in cost.
And if the chosen wheel does not fit the counter sunk faced hat...that could be an issue. *A problem that is not present on the complete BBK.
Here is another option if you want to consider it. Going with two piece rotors with the stock calipers should still meet the rules for the autocross class you want to compete in. However, I had extremely bad life expectancy out of the Coleman Rotors. Factory rotors would go about 5 days before cracking while the Coleman's made it 7 days. For the more than double the cost of rotor rings and replacement bolts they weren't cost effective. I followed those with this set of rotors and was very happy with life and cost. http://www.wilwood.com/BrakeKits/Bra...tte&option=Z06
I got 13 track days out of them before replacing them and they had not cracked. Replacement rings although about double the cost of factory rotors were just about equivalent in consumable cost to the factory rotors due to the almost 3 times durability. They might have gone another two or three days but I replaced them at the beginning of the season.
Afterwards if you decide the stock caliper is not for you then go with this Wilwood kit which will fit right over the rotors above. It will also go over any other stock or stock replacement rotor. http://www.wilwood.com/BrakeKits/Bra...tte&option=Z06
This will let you change in steps. The combo of the Wilwood Stock Replacement Calipers and the Wilwood Stock Replacement Rotors is not the standard Wilwood BBK offering. The standard offering gives you 14.25 inch rotors with a different offset than the stock 14 inch rotors. The thing I liked about the kit is I could throw some well abused stock rotors in the back of the truck as spares for the track. If something happened to a Wilwood Rotor I didn't need to have a spare one at the track and didn't have to worry about playing around with changing rings at the track.When I got home I could call a vendor and take my time getting the ring replaced. I did ruin one Wilwood rotor when I lost a front wheel at VIR and used the rotor to drive on. It actually held up pretty well but the edges of the vanes were pretty badly dinged and a lot of dirt got forced between the two sides of the ring.
Bill
Thanks for the info Bill.
Do you know if this setup will fit/clear the C5 ZO6 18" rear wheels when used on the front?
I stand corrected. A rare occasion when pricing is not what I've come to expect it to be.
When purchased line item; caliper kit, then rotor kit...the combo is about $65 LESS than the box kit.
What are the differences?
1. The box kit comes 14.25 not 14.0 dia
2. The box kit will 'push' the entire kit inboard a bit for more spoke and clearance.
3. The box kit will use a flat faced hat eliminating the potential wheel fit issue with using a dished faced hat. *this may or may not be an issue depending upon the dia of the wheel mounting pad of the wheels use.
A rarity when the "sum of the parts" is NOT greater than the whole. *In normal retail pricing mode however the box kit will exceed the split purchase- which indicates the pricing structure is a bit different in my price list.
I stand corrected. A race occasion when pricing is not what I've come to expect it to be.
When purchased line item; caliper kit, then rotor kit...the combo is about $65 LESS than the box kit.
What are the differences?
1. The box kit comes 14.25 not 14.0 dia
2. The box kit will 'push' the entire kit inboard a bit for more spoke and clearance.
3. The box kit will use a flat faced hat eliminating the potential wheel fit issue with using a dished faced hat. *this may or may not be an issue depending upon the dia of the wheel mounting pad of the wheels use.
A rarity when the "sum of the parts" is NOT greater than the whole. *In normal retail pricing mode however the box kit will exceed the split purchase- which indicates the pricing structure is a bit different in my price list.
Can't he do the same thing with the rotors he linked to? Meaning, the calipers you linked to wold work with the rotors he linked to wouldn't they?
Yes, I did use the AFX/Coleman Rotors but did not have a great experience with the front heavy duty rotors. I may have even ran them with the Wilwood Calipers but can't remember right now since it was some number of years ago.
I did get much better life out of the Wilwood Rotors. Even when replaced after 13 track days they had not cracked. All of my Coleman's cracked in about half the time.
Do you know if this setup will fit/clear the C5 ZO6 18" rear wheels when used on the front?
I don't know. I can tell you the C5 Z rear wheels have a different arc to the spokes than the fronts. When I had the LG G Stop kit on my C5Z it would fit nicely under the front 17 inch wheels. However, when I transitioned to running the C5Z rear wheels at all 4 corners (due to tire availability issues) the spokes cleared the G stop calipers by a very thin amount (1/16 or less). To be sure they didn't hit when things flexed under hard cornering I added a 1/8 inch spacer when I was on track. The LG G Stop kit placed the caliper in the correct location for the stock rotor and it used the SL6 wide caliper so the .8 inch thick pads could be used. I can't say how much width difference there is between that caliper and the Aero caliper.
I stand corrected. A rare occasion when pricing is not what I've come to expect it to be.
When purchased line item; caliper kit, then rotor kit...the combo is about $65 LESS than the box kit.
What are the differences?
1. The box kit comes 14.25 not 14.0 dia
2. The box kit will 'push' the entire kit inboard a bit for more spoke and clearance.
3. The box kit will use a flat faced hat eliminating the potential wheel fit issue with using a dished faced hat. *this may or may not be an issue depending upon the dia of the wheel mounting pad of the wheels use.
A rarity when the "sum of the parts" is NOT greater than the whole. *In normal retail pricing mode however the box kit will exceed the split purchase- which indicates the pricing structure is a bit different in my price list.
I doubt the small difference in rotor diameter is a big issue since there are other kits that also use the 14 inch rotor size. The big thing with using this combination of parts is the dished faced hat. The stock wheel will fit in it. However, although not noticeably bigger the CCW C10 wheel hub face is just a little larger which means it rides on the radiused edge of the depressed area. CCW will make a spacer to fit in that space if you use that rotor and run CCW wheels. This was a $4K lesson for me in not assuming things and checking them properly before heading to the track. I spent 5 years studying for an engineering degree and 40 plus years working as an engineer and once I retired I forgot that simple rule about not assuming that had been taught in school and reinforced through all of those work years.
I doubt the small difference in rotor diameter is a big issue since there are other kits that also use the 14 inch rotor size. The big thing with using this combination of parts is the dished faced hat. The stock wheel will fit in it. However, although not noticeably bigger the CCW C10 wheel hub face is just a little larger which means it rides on the radiused edge of the depressed area. CCW will make a spacer to fit in that space if you use that rotor and run CCW wheels. This was a $4K lesson for me in not assuming things and checking them properly before heading to the track. I spent 5 years studying for an engineering degree and 40 plus years working as an engineer and once I retired I forgot that simple rule about not assuming that had been taught in school and reinforced through all of those work years.
Bill
Bill, so the stock rear Z06 wheel fits in the dish properly?
A little late to help Bill..but the maximum wheel pad diameter for using the dished hat of the 2pc oe spec rotor kit is 6.00". *You might get a bit more if the wheel has a radius but the base circle is said to be 6.020" before the radius starts.
Keep that in mind if anyone chooses to use these.
Thanks to some nudging from me; this info will be listed on the parts page HERE shortly under Cautionary Info.
Bill, so the stock rear Z06 wheel fits in the dish properly?
thanks
Yes, the issue only comes when you use some aftermarket wheels such as the CCWs. CCW will make you an appropriate spacer if you have their wheels. As I have said before this problem isn't limited to the Wilwood rotor hat. It also happens with the stock front Corvette Ceramic rotors on the C6 and C7. Based on my experiences with both of those rotors it seems to me brake manufacturers will configure the rotor hat offset so a standard rotor can be used. Both Wilwood and Brembo have done so.
Excellent discussion in this thread and I appreciate everyone's input. I made my decision a few days ago and went with the AP Racing Factory Big Brake kit. The kit comes with the street friendly Performance pads so I also ordered a track compound so that I can swap pads for track duty. Big thanks to Jeff at Essex Parts Services for answering my questions and shipping out quickly. Too bad the parts are going to Florida and I don't get them until April.
I will be installing this kit in the spring and look forward to coming back with some impressions once I get some track time with them. For now I will be using the factory rear brake pads until they wear out and then upgrade to a suitable 1 piece pad that I can leave in for track and street duty.
The draw back to this decision is that the car is not legal in SS for autoX any longer. I decided that this isn't that much of a concern since our local autoX is on a very tight lot and there are rarely other cars in that class. I will buy another Miata once I move to a house with additional garage space. Throw some good tires on it and enjoy some proper competition.
The good news is that since the car isn't legal for SS anyways, nothing is stopping me from the set of long tubes I want!
I was in same scenario as you the last couple of years....I did Raybestos ST43 pads for street/track. Around 6 HPDE a year and its all I needed, beside good fluid.
My tracks are not brake heavy, more flowing type.
When I sold my car and replaced pads with stock it felt like I had lost all stopping power. LOL.
I will do the same in the C5.
01-07-2017, 11:27 PM
