C5 vs C5Z vs C6 vs C6Z for a modified track day car
#21
This is a conversation a friend and I were having the other night.
If you were building a pretty much dedicated track car (caged/stripped interior) which chassis would be best to start with?
Taking the following out of the equation because it would all be upgraded/not stock:
Engine
Trans
Rear diff
Brakes (rotors, calipers)
Springs (coilovers)
Sways
Suspension bushings
I say C6 base (steel frame) with GS/Z wide body fenders. C6 I would think has more advanced comp mode and abs. I would think the aero would be better for the track when using front splitter. C6Z aluminum frame would be lighter but I would think more easily damaged?
I know some guys on here have moved from C5 to C6 (C7's not in conversation). Just wondering if had any input...
If you were building a pretty much dedicated track car (caged/stripped interior) which chassis would be best to start with?
Taking the following out of the equation because it would all be upgraded/not stock:
Engine
Trans
Rear diff
Brakes (rotors, calipers)
Springs (coilovers)
Sways
Suspension bushings
I say C6 base (steel frame) with GS/Z wide body fenders. C6 I would think has more advanced comp mode and abs. I would think the aero would be better for the track when using front splitter. C6Z aluminum frame would be lighter but I would think more easily damaged?
I know some guys on here have moved from C5 to C6 (C7's not in conversation). Just wondering if had any input...
If you take out all of those items you mention above I think essentially it comes down:
- Aero
- Cooling (based on the body and available space/positioning for coolers)
- Weight
- Weight distribution
- Vehicle dimensions
- Suspension geometry
With that being said the lightest one would be a good start. I don't have expertise on the rest of those items as far as how the effect performance or the differences(if any) between the models.
This would also be a great conversation to have with Tage to see what his thoughts are on it.
Last edited by dapopa9; 01-16-2017 at 04:54 PM.
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zrtman1 (01-17-2017)
#23
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I have a C5 coupe and not planning on changing anytime soon. My skill level is not even close to using all of the car. Forged LS3, Lg coilovers, C6 Z51 sways, Wilwood aero front cailpers, C6Z front rotors and C6 Z51 rears, poly bushings, big oil cooler, ZR1 6060 trans, C6Z diff.
I started with a high mile base that was daily driven. Had a bad knock in the LS1 so I bought it cheap and sold my C4. I have done 100% of the work myself except the alignment and tune. So I do not have a ton of money in it. But I have a lot of fun driving it and my skill level is not anywhere close to pushing it even with the crap invos I am using right now.
Fastfatboy - you said you used to run NT05's? What was your target pressure (hot) with them? That is my next set of tires.
The thread is just a question. Or more of a conversation really. Like off season shooting the bull over a beer.
I started with a high mile base that was daily driven. Had a bad knock in the LS1 so I bought it cheap and sold my C4. I have done 100% of the work myself except the alignment and tune. So I do not have a ton of money in it. But I have a lot of fun driving it and my skill level is not anywhere close to pushing it even with the crap invos I am using right now.
Fastfatboy - you said you used to run NT05's? What was your target pressure (hot) with them? That is my next set of tires.
The thread is just a question. Or more of a conversation really. Like off season shooting the bull over a beer.
Bill
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zrtman1 (01-26-2017)
#24
Burning Brakes
I cut my track teeth on a C5 fifteen years ago. It was a Z51 car but I upgraded the swaybars and could pretty much run w/ the stock Z06's. I moved to a C6 in '07, also a Z51 car. Changed the swaybars on it, and put on some longtubes and x-pipe, Borla attack etc. The C6 made all the right noises but didn't charm me like the C5.
So I bought a '99 FRC last summer and I'm preparing it for dedicated track use. After half a dozen track days it showed it can really hold it's own.
Driving the C5 with the 345HP base motor teaches you to drive it like a momentum car, and that is quite entertaining.
So I bought a '99 FRC last summer and I'm preparing it for dedicated track use. After half a dozen track days it showed it can really hold it's own.
Driving the C5 with the 345HP base motor teaches you to drive it like a momentum car, and that is quite entertaining.
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zrtman1 (01-16-2017)
#25
Having tried a c6z and c5z I would say avoid a c6z like the absolute plague. Do a c5 right with coolers, dry sump, brakes, hubs, etc., and good ducting and heat control and it's ok. But still a bitch to maintain and work on.
I am building a different car, having given up on the newer cars as they are just too difficult to maintain and repair for a track car.
I am building a different car, having given up on the newer cars as they are just too difficult to maintain and repair for a track car.
How funny...I just bought a C5 base recently. Already have LG G1 bars, DRM Bilsteins, and C5Z springs. Wheels and tires are next. I'm going to run Wilwoods in the front though.
So in other words, another vote for C5 base. It's a track car, so chassis cost is a big part of the equation. Hitting something is more of a "when" than an "if."
So in other words, another vote for C5 base. It's a track car, so chassis cost is a big part of the equation. Hitting something is more of a "when" than an "if."
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sciff5 (12-31-2023)
#26
Burning Brakes
I cut my track teeth on a C5 fifteen years ago. It was a Z51 car but I upgraded the swaybars and could pretty much run w/ the stock Z06's. I moved to a C6 in '07, also a Z51 car. Changed the swaybars on it, and put on some longtubes and x-pipe, Borla attack etc. The C6 made all the right noises but didn't charm me like the C5.
So I bought a '99 FRC last summer and I'm preparing it for dedicated track use. After half a dozen track days it showed it can really hold it's own.
Driving the C5 with the 345HP base motor teaches you to drive it like a momentum car, and that is quite entertaining.
So I bought a '99 FRC last summer and I'm preparing it for dedicated track use. After half a dozen track days it showed it can really hold it's own.
Driving the C5 with the 345HP base motor teaches you to drive it like a momentum car, and that is quite entertaining.
#27
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C6Z51, C6Z along with C6GS came standard with a better engineered trans/diff system than the C5 GMPP T1 kit which seems like it was offered as an after thought shortly after the C5 was introduced. GM's 2009 and newer dry sump design was a good track setup. It held about a quart and half more oil than the pre 09 system which worked fine in most cases.
When I went from my C5Z with the add on radiator and trans/diff coolers I didn't have to add those things on the 08 C6Z. The stock cooling system worked really well and I never came close to overheating the car in 6 years of track use.
Bill
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Metalgearsolid_x (02-07-2017)
#28
Pro
If you are going to mod all the important stuff anyway, C5 base is the way to go. Leaves more budget for mods. Agree with others above that already modded C5 is the best bang for the buck. I bought a caged ST2 1999 FRC last March. I had previously modded (on my dime) a C5Z. Speed / dollar definitely goes to the base C5.
#29
Drifting
For a track car, I'd be looking at a C5z, C6 Z51, or a manual GS.
The Z's have a shorter range gearbox. The c6z51 has a factory cooler for the engine and trans. Wilwoods for both are roughly 1600 using stock style rotors.
The GS adds a dry sump setup and a diff cooler to the mix, along with better brakes.
The Z's have a shorter range gearbox. The c6z51 has a factory cooler for the engine and trans. Wilwoods for both are roughly 1600 using stock style rotors.
The GS adds a dry sump setup and a diff cooler to the mix, along with better brakes.
#30
Pro
For a track car, I'd be looking at a C5z, C6 Z51, or a manual GS.
The Z's have a shorter range gearbox. The c6z51 has a factory cooler for the engine and trans. Wilwoods for both are roughly 1600 using stock style rotors.
The GS adds a dry sump setup and a diff cooler to the mix, along with better brakes.
The Z's have a shorter range gearbox. The c6z51 has a factory cooler for the engine and trans. Wilwoods for both are roughly 1600 using stock style rotors.
The GS adds a dry sump setup and a diff cooler to the mix, along with better brakes.
#31
Yes. Very many considerations and compromises involved and several ways to go awry. Be especially wary of shops who are trying to weld attachment pads/boxes to the Al frame.
The frame is factory hydro-formed, which is cold worked. Welding anything to it anneals it locally, softening it substantially at that point, exactly what you do not want to achieve.
(I say this as a warning because there is a vendor on this forum who is selling such an approach which I'm sure you can find if you look.)
So, you are left with fabricating big surface area plating around the frame, bolting through, and sleeving inside or around to prevent collapse. You then will also need to address galvanic corrosion (minimally wherever moisture/water can occur, which is realistically everywhere) which means zinc coating at least, probably in addition to adhesive.
So all of this mucking about = about double the time/labor.
The frame is factory hydro-formed, which is cold worked. Welding anything to it anneals it locally, softening it substantially at that point, exactly what you do not want to achieve.
(I say this as a warning because there is a vendor on this forum who is selling such an approach which I'm sure you can find if you look.)
So, you are left with fabricating big surface area plating around the frame, bolting through, and sleeving inside or around to prevent collapse. You then will also need to address galvanic corrosion (minimally wherever moisture/water can occur, which is realistically everywhere) which means zinc coating at least, probably in addition to adhesive.
So all of this mucking about = about double the time/labor.
#32
Supporting Vendor
What's better, Pepsi, Coke, Dr Pepper?
That's a BIG spread of cars from a base C5 to a C6Z. 1997 to 2013. All the submodels. Yikes.
I think it comes down to money, pure and simple. What can you afford to buy. What can you afford to leave wadded up in a ball (god forbid). What do you have to upgrade. Etc.
If you start with a C5,hard not to say Z06 given the extra power and better gearing vs. a "normal" one. Again unless cost is a big factor then the base cars do get you in the door for less. All the C5 and base C6 brakes suck. I mean they work, you won't die, but you tear up pads pretty badly. And they need coolers added.
A C6 Z51 is a little better. Same better gearing and an LS2 or LS3 depending on the year. Crappy brakes still but at least a little bigger rotor. Grand Sport is maybe the sweet spot. LS3 is reliable. The bigger brakes (which are not nearly as badly in need of upgrading as the 'normal' brakes. The larger oil tank and the shorter gearing too.
I have a C6Z, so does my girlfriend. We've more than once slapped better pads on and run on tracks with out autocross setup. Nothing more done (we do run good fluid anyway). I've run Laguna, Thunderhill out west, PittRace and Summit and others here in the east. No issues with the smaller oil tanks, oil temps weren't outrageous. We both fixed out heads, which again is a non issue in the LS3... but the LS7 is just more likeable for me. So it a roof that doesn't drive me nuts.
You are going to mod them all some I'm sure. How far do you want to go? That might tell you where you want to start.
That's a BIG spread of cars from a base C5 to a C6Z. 1997 to 2013. All the submodels. Yikes.
I think it comes down to money, pure and simple. What can you afford to buy. What can you afford to leave wadded up in a ball (god forbid). What do you have to upgrade. Etc.
If you start with a C5,hard not to say Z06 given the extra power and better gearing vs. a "normal" one. Again unless cost is a big factor then the base cars do get you in the door for less. All the C5 and base C6 brakes suck. I mean they work, you won't die, but you tear up pads pretty badly. And they need coolers added.
A C6 Z51 is a little better. Same better gearing and an LS2 or LS3 depending on the year. Crappy brakes still but at least a little bigger rotor. Grand Sport is maybe the sweet spot. LS3 is reliable. The bigger brakes (which are not nearly as badly in need of upgrading as the 'normal' brakes. The larger oil tank and the shorter gearing too.
I have a C6Z, so does my girlfriend. We've more than once slapped better pads on and run on tracks with out autocross setup. Nothing more done (we do run good fluid anyway). I've run Laguna, Thunderhill out west, PittRace and Summit and others here in the east. No issues with the smaller oil tanks, oil temps weren't outrageous. We both fixed out heads, which again is a non issue in the LS3... but the LS7 is just more likeable for me. So it a roof that doesn't drive me nuts.
You are going to mod them all some I'm sure. How far do you want to go? That might tell you where you want to start.
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Sam Strano
Strano Performance Parts
www.stranoparts.com
814-849-3450
More options than any other single company out there. More parts than any other single company I know: Brakes to Safety, Wheels to Exhaust. Suspension to Air Filters: Girodisc, Hawk, Raybestos, Essex Racing/AP, Ferodo, Wilwood, Penske, Koni, Borg Motorsport, Ridetech, Viking, After Dark Speed, Hotchkis, Bilstein, KW, Forgestar, BC Forged, Forgeline, MRR Wheels and on, and on, and on it goes.
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zrtman1 (01-26-2017)