What does matching numbers mean?
02-13-2006, 04:21 PM
#1
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What does matching numbers mean?
Hi there. I am new to this and wondered what does it mean for numbers to match? How does one match these numbers?
Thanks in advance for your help. Is there a book or someone I am to call?
Thanks in advance for your help. Is there a book or someone I am to call?
02-13-2006, 04:26 PM
#2
Most commonly, it means that the number on the engine stamp pad matches the number on the vin plate under the glove box.
As everyone else will chime in - this is just the tip of the iceberg.
There are many numbered parts on all of these cars. In addition, in 2006, a numbers matching engine doesn't necessarily mean that it is the original engine.
As everyone else will chime in - this is just the tip of the iceberg.
There are many numbered parts on all of these cars. In addition, in 2006, a numbers matching engine doesn't necessarily mean that it is the original engine.
02-13-2006, 05:41 PM
#3
Melting Slicks
These are weasel words. The term is usually used to mislead. It's used to puff the value of a car for sale. It's used when you can't truthfully say that the part is original to the car, thereby increasing the value of the car. The term is grossly misused. What it usually means is that this part is wrong, but we're trying to make it sound better with this term. It almost always means the part is wrong. If it were right, the seller would say so.
Mostly used WRT to engines.
Mostly used WRT to engines.
02-13-2006, 06:51 PM
#4
Le Mans Master
as stated, matching numbers means that the motor has the correct numbers stamped on it to match the VIN of the car.
It's SUPPOSED to mean that the motor is the original motor that the car left the factory with which for many people is a desirable thing to look for and a car with the original motor typically will bring a significantly higher resell value.
Realistically though that term is widely overused and misused. Because of the higher resell values many people will take a replacement motor, have the correct numbers stamped on it (known as restamping a motor) than sell the car as a "numbers matching" car to get a higher resell price.
The seller is being "truthful" that the car is a numbers matching car because now the numbers DO match but that is NOT the same as if the car truely had the original motor in it. The real question to ask is not if it's numbers matching but if the motor is the original motor is left the factory with - if this aspect of the car is important to you. to some it is, to others it's not.
There is nothing inherently "wrong" with a non-original motor car, or even a car with a replacement motor in it that's been restamped to make the numbers match, as long as the seller is not trying to pass off the car as a true original motor car and trying to get a higher resell price based upon the numbers matching. Believe me, I'm sure I've just opened up an ugly can of worms by making that statement.......
the bottom line is if the seller is asking a premium price for a "numbers matching" car, than make very sure that it's really the true original motor in the car and not a restamp.
Expect to pay a premium for a true original motor car, but don't pay a premuim for a car that isn't even if the numbers match.
It's SUPPOSED to mean that the motor is the original motor that the car left the factory with which for many people is a desirable thing to look for and a car with the original motor typically will bring a significantly higher resell value.
Realistically though that term is widely overused and misused. Because of the higher resell values many people will take a replacement motor, have the correct numbers stamped on it (known as restamping a motor) than sell the car as a "numbers matching" car to get a higher resell price.
The seller is being "truthful" that the car is a numbers matching car because now the numbers DO match but that is NOT the same as if the car truely had the original motor in it. The real question to ask is not if it's numbers matching but if the motor is the original motor is left the factory with - if this aspect of the car is important to you. to some it is, to others it's not.
There is nothing inherently "wrong" with a non-original motor car, or even a car with a replacement motor in it that's been restamped to make the numbers match, as long as the seller is not trying to pass off the car as a true original motor car and trying to get a higher resell price based upon the numbers matching. Believe me, I'm sure I've just opened up an ugly can of worms by making that statement.......
the bottom line is if the seller is asking a premium price for a "numbers matching" car, than make very sure that it's really the true original motor in the car and not a restamp.
Expect to pay a premium for a true original motor car, but don't pay a premuim for a car that isn't even if the numbers match.
02-13-2006, 06:54 PM
#5
Originally Posted by chris ritchie
These are weasel words. The term is usually used to mislead. It's used to puff the value of a car for sale. It's used when you can't truthfully say that the part is original to the car, thereby increasing the value of the car. The term is grossly misused. What it usually means is that this part is wrong, but we're trying to make it sound better with this term. It almost always means the part is wrong. If it were right, the seller would say so.
Mostly used WRT to engines.
Mostly used WRT to engines.
Randy
02-13-2006, 08:03 PM
#6
Drifting
" I would advertise my car as numbers matching and I'm not trying to misslead anybody..... My engine is most likely a restamp and I would not hide that fact, but the part number and date code is correct down to the heads and intake."
You know I always wondered what this meant as the years went on (I've owned a Vette since 1967) I tend to remember a time when restamping a part was not exactly what number-matching meant. I remember it meaning all the parts that are on it, came with the car, thus they were matching number parts and had not been replaced.
Seems to have gotten a little "clouded" over the years...just my opinion.
You know I always wondered what this meant as the years went on (I've owned a Vette since 1967) I tend to remember a time when restamping a part was not exactly what number-matching meant. I remember it meaning all the parts that are on it, came with the car, thus they were matching number parts and had not been replaced.
Seems to have gotten a little "clouded" over the years...just my opinion.
02-14-2006, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by 435Randy
That's not exactly true, I would advertise my car as numbers matching and I'm not trying to misslead anybody. All my drive train components are date coded consistant to the build date of the car. Is it original, who knows. Even if it had a tank sticker and Bloomington Gold it does not mean the parts are original, who cares. Numbers matching is short for all date codes are consistant to the build date and is restricted to drive train components. My engine is most likely a restamp and I would not hide that fact, but the part number and date code is correct down to the heads and intake.
Randy
Randy
Numbers "matching" means just that the numbers MATCH. Where? As a couple of previous posters got correctly, the engine stamp pad VIN derivative MATCHES the VIN of the car. That's what matching means.
Check Mike Antonick's Black Book, page 9 (in the '01 book, I dont have a new one in front of me) "it is the engine's VIN derivative match (his italics) to the vehicle number that constitutes matching numbers terminology."
It would logically follow that if the numbers "match" then, outside of a restamp fake, the engine is in fact original. However, matching means matching the VINs, not having correct codes.
Your application is a commonly erroneous usage of the term. You may be doing it because you mistakenly think that the "correct" numbers somehow "match" something, but it is wrong and while you say you are not trying to misslead, that's exactly what you are doing.
Last edited by vettebuyer6369; 02-14-2006 at 12:06 AM.
02-14-2006, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Vettebuyer5863
I'm sorry, this is not right. The is the classic confusion of the terms "matching" and "correct." "Numbers matching" does NOT mean the drive train date codes are consistent to the build date. That means the numbers on those parts are "correct." i.e. correct part & date for the car build.
Numbers "matching" means just that the numbers MATCH. Where? As a couple of previous posters got correctly, the engine stamp pad VIN derivative MATCHES the VIN of the car. That's what matching means.
Check Mike Antonick's Black Book, page 9 (in the '01 book, I dont have a new one in front of me) "it is the engine's VIN derivative match (his italics) to the vehicle number that constitutes matching numbers terminology."
It would logically follow that if the numbers "match" then, outside of a restamp fake, the engine is in fact original. However, matching means matching the VINs, not having correct codes.
Your application is a commonly erroneous usage of the term. You may be doing it because you mistakenly think that the "correct" numbers somehow "match" something, but it is wrong and while you say you are not trying to misslead, that's exactly what you are doing.
Numbers "matching" means just that the numbers MATCH. Where? As a couple of previous posters got correctly, the engine stamp pad VIN derivative MATCHES the VIN of the car. That's what matching means.
Check Mike Antonick's Black Book, page 9 (in the '01 book, I dont have a new one in front of me) "it is the engine's VIN derivative match (his italics) to the vehicle number that constitutes matching numbers terminology."
It would logically follow that if the numbers "match" then, outside of a restamp fake, the engine is in fact original. However, matching means matching the VINs, not having correct codes.
Your application is a commonly erroneous usage of the term. You may be doing it because you mistakenly think that the "correct" numbers somehow "match" something, but it is wrong and while you say you are not trying to misslead, that's exactly what you are doing.
From what you are saying, a pre-1960 Vette can't be "matching numbers" since they never had the VIN stamped on the block. I suspect that many owners of pre-1960 Vettes with the original engine would take exception to this view.
Or take the case of many other Chevys. Most did not have a VIN stamped on the pad until much later than 1960. Yet, the term "numbers matching" is commonly used for those cars with original or correct engine codes.
And here is another case where your statement does not hold up. Some GM cars (like a Canadian '65 Impala that I own) with original engines have engine numbers stamped on the front pad of the block that never did correspond with the VIN. Instead, GM recorded those unique numbers in the owners manual/protecto-plate. These numbers match - between the original documentation and the block pad.
The term "matching numbers" has many different meanings. Terms like "original" and "correct" may mean more. But mostly, it is a case of buyer beware.
02-14-2006, 01:03 AM
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Originally Posted by northern
While I understand your point, I suspect that many knowledgeable people in this hobby would not agree with you.
From what you are saying, a pre-1960 Vette can't be "matching numbers" since they never had the VIN stamped on the block. I suspect that many owners of pre-1960 Vettes with the original engine would take exception to this view.
Or take the case of many other Chevys. Most did not have a VIN stamped on the pad until much later than 1960. Yet, the term "numbers matching" is commonly used for those cars with original or correct engine codes.
And here is another case where your statement does not hold up. Some GM cars (like a Canadian '65 Impala that I own) with original engines have engine numbers stamped on the front pad of the block that never did correspond with the VIN. Instead, GM recorded those unique numbers in the owners manual/protecto-plate. These numbers match - between the original documentation and the block pad.
The term "matching numbers" has many different meanings. Terms like "original" and "correct" may mean more. But mostly, it is a case of buyer beware.
From what you are saying, a pre-1960 Vette can't be "matching numbers" since they never had the VIN stamped on the block. I suspect that many owners of pre-1960 Vettes with the original engine would take exception to this view.
Or take the case of many other Chevys. Most did not have a VIN stamped on the pad until much later than 1960. Yet, the term "numbers matching" is commonly used for those cars with original or correct engine codes.
And here is another case where your statement does not hold up. Some GM cars (like a Canadian '65 Impala that I own) with original engines have engine numbers stamped on the front pad of the block that never did correspond with the VIN. Instead, GM recorded those unique numbers in the owners manual/protecto-plate. These numbers match - between the original documentation and the block pad.
The term "matching numbers" has many different meanings. Terms like "original" and "correct" may mean more. But mostly, it is a case of buyer beware.
I agree that within the classic car hobby, there are many meanings (actually, uses) for this term. However, your examples for cars other than Corvettes do not apply to my explanation. I am speaking about Corvettes. If people with cars other than Corvettes like to throw around the word "matching" for engines that don't match, well, good for them. I'm pretty sure Mike Antonick wasn't all that concerned with Canadian Impalas; neither am I.
And I agree that the term is "commonly used" as you say. However, I would argue that people commonly use incorrect words every day of the week, simply because other people do. Examples are endless. Theyre still wrong.
Regarding pre-1960 Corvettes? Thats EXACTLY what I'm saying. Pre 1960 Corvettes CANNOT be numbers matching for the very reasons you describe. Some of their owners may not want to agree, but it is true.
These owners may have "correct" motors, verifed by date codes and part numbers. They may have "original" engines proven by original ownership and other documentation. However, they cannot have matching numbers because there is nothing to match.
The problem here is that there is such a confusion between terms like matching, original and correct that people cease to consider what each term means. Some people feel that they can say an engine matches because they think its original. An engine can be verified to death in its correctness by casting numbers and date codes, but if it does not have a VIN stamp, it can never be "matching." These people have the fusion of matching and original so burned into their heads, they can't stop to tell the difference.
As you say, there are people within the hobby that might disagree, especially if they own a pre-60 car. But in the real meaning of the term "matching," they are wrong. I will stand behind the Black Book terminology.
02-14-2006, 02:14 AM
#11
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The engine block is only ONE number (maybe you could count it as 2, the casting and the stamping)
The horns, the steering wheel hub, the master cylinder, the alternator, starter, horn relay, voltage regulator, coil, distributor. The exhaust manifolds, intake manifold, carburetor, fuel pump. The transmission, the bell housing, the rear differential, the frame, all the body parts, on and on and on and on.
There are hundreds of numbered parts and for someone to claim a car is matching numbers only because they restamp the pad on the engine casing is an insult.
I don't care if the engine's restamped or not, but they had better have all those other parts matching and correct or just shut the f___ up and go home.
People are so blinded by the $$$ they hear a term and think they're all experts and think they know what they're talking about. They don't know crap.
Numbers matching means only one thing and there are very few Corvettes out there that are numbers matching.
Why not just be honest and say, "one or two numbers match; you guess which two" ?
How many actually are willing to provide a list and photos of all those matching numbers?
The horns, the steering wheel hub, the master cylinder, the alternator, starter, horn relay, voltage regulator, coil, distributor. The exhaust manifolds, intake manifold, carburetor, fuel pump. The transmission, the bell housing, the rear differential, the frame, all the body parts, on and on and on and on.
There are hundreds of numbered parts and for someone to claim a car is matching numbers only because they restamp the pad on the engine casing is an insult.
I don't care if the engine's restamped or not, but they had better have all those other parts matching and correct or just shut the f___ up and go home.
People are so blinded by the $$$ they hear a term and think they're all experts and think they know what they're talking about. They don't know crap.
Numbers matching means only one thing and there are very few Corvettes out there that are numbers matching.
Why not just be honest and say, "one or two numbers match; you guess which two" ?
How many actually are willing to provide a list and photos of all those matching numbers?
02-14-2006, 05:44 AM
#12
Originally Posted by Vettebuyer5863
I'm sorry, this is not right. The is the classic confusion of the terms "matching" and "correct." "Numbers matching" does NOT mean the drive train date codes are consistent to the build date. That means the numbers on those parts are "correct." i.e. correct part & date for the car build.
Numbers "matching" means just that the numbers MATCH. Where? As a couple of previous posters got correctly, the engine stamp pad VIN derivative MATCHES the VIN of the car. That's what matching means.
Check Mike Antonick's Black Book, page 9 (in the '01 book, I dont have a new one in front of me) "it is the engine's VIN derivative match (his italics) to the vehicle number that constitutes matching numbers terminology."
It would logically follow that if the numbers "match" then, outside of a restamp fake, the engine is in fact original. However, matching means matching the VINs, not having correct codes.
Your application is a commonly erroneous usage of the term. You may be doing it because you mistakenly think that the "correct" numbers somehow "match" something, but it is wrong and while you say you are not trying to misslead, that's exactly what you are doing.
Numbers "matching" means just that the numbers MATCH. Where? As a couple of previous posters got correctly, the engine stamp pad VIN derivative MATCHES the VIN of the car. That's what matching means.
Check Mike Antonick's Black Book, page 9 (in the '01 book, I dont have a new one in front of me) "it is the engine's VIN derivative match (his italics) to the vehicle number that constitutes matching numbers terminology."
It would logically follow that if the numbers "match" then, outside of a restamp fake, the engine is in fact original. However, matching means matching the VINs, not having correct codes.
Your application is a commonly erroneous usage of the term. You may be doing it because you mistakenly think that the "correct" numbers somehow "match" something, but it is wrong and while you say you are not trying to misslead, that's exactly what you are doing.
02-14-2006, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by 435Randy
Numbers matching is short for all date codes are consistant to the build date and is restricted to drive train components.
Randy
Randy
You did not say if your block stamp VIN matches the VIN on the car. I assume it does. If so, it is matching, I'm not saying it isnt. But its matching because the stamp matches the VIN, not because the dates are correct.
The problem is many people use the terms matching, original and correct interchangeably. Sometimes this is a convenient way to muddy details. The fact is they are separate terms with seperate meanings.
PS: I didn't mean to say you were intentionally misleading anyone- an example: I was shopping for a '58 at B/J 2 years ago and he insisted the numbers were matching. I asked how they could be matching if there's no VIN on the block. He meant the date codes were correct. Upon inspection, the stamp was decked, showing no numbers at all. The car was presented on the stage as "numbers matching" and sold for over $77,000. I find this misleading. I think B/J should know better and call the engine what it is: correct, not matching.
Last edited by vettebuyer6369; 02-14-2006 at 09:53 AM.
02-14-2006, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by hurtadogracie
Hi there. I am new to this and wondered what does it mean for numbers to match? How does one match these numbers?
Thanks in advance for your help. Is there a book or someone I am to call?
Thanks in advance for your help. Is there a book or someone I am to call?
02-14-2006, 01:10 PM
#15
Drifting
"People are so blinded by the $$$ they hear a term and think they're all experts and think they know what they're talking about. They don't know crap.
Numbers matching means only one thing and there are very few Corvettes out there that are numbers matching.
Why not just be honest and say, "one or two numbers match; you guess which two" ?
How many actually are willing to provide a list and photos of all those matching numbers?"
If you put a prancing horse on the front is it now a Ferrari?
Let's call a scam a scam!
Numbers matching means only one thing and there are very few Corvettes out there that are numbers matching.
Why not just be honest and say, "one or two numbers match; you guess which two" ?
How many actually are willing to provide a list and photos of all those matching numbers?"
If you put a prancing horse on the front is it now a Ferrari?
Let's call a scam a scam!
02-14-2006, 01:43 PM
#16
Melting Slicks
IMHO the term "Numbers - Matching" means that the engine, transmission, rear and VIN all match. This term is extremely vague though. You could buy a numbers - matching corvette but all the components could not be original, just re-stamped with the cars VIN #. Before you spend any money, make sure you ask the more important questions.
Does the car have the original motor that it was born with?
Has the motor ever been decked and re-stamped?
Have the car been retagged?
etc.
Does the car have the original motor that it was born with?
Has the motor ever been decked and re-stamped?
Have the car been retagged?
etc.
02-14-2006, 02:39 PM
#17
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"Matching numbers" has traditionally related to the unique Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) assigned to a car as it leaves the assembly line. There are lots of numbers on parts and castings that can identify the year the pieces were made, or should have been assembled into a car, but only the VIN numbered pieces are unique to one and only one car. If you are shopping for a unique car, these VIN numbers identify only one car and should not be replaced with restoration pieces (and for a restoration car owner they should keep the original VIN numbered parts as "records").
There are many other numbers stamped and cast into the car parts before it leaves the assembly line (rear pumpkin codes and assembly dates, casting and part numbers, etc.), but none of these can be proven to be unique to only one car.
I'll isolate my comments to a C2 (63-67).
The first place a "matching numbers" hunter looks is the VIN tag. The VIN tag on a C2 is located on a crossmember of the birdcage under the glove box. The VIN tag is spot welded to the crossmember, just to the right of the trim tag (another useful tag to identify the original color and trim). The factory would grind paint off the crossmember before spot welding the tag, and some folks believe the grind marks are an indication of a swapped VIN tag (one of those stories people used to tell, to warn you away from the car, before
they returned to buy it for themselves).
The second place to look for a "matching number" is the engine block stamp pad located just forward of the passenger side head. The stamp pad should have the same VIN number as the VIN tag. The stamp pad also has a code number line that identifies the original engine assembly location and date, and option configuration (high performance, fuel injection, etc.).
The engine block stamp pad is where most "matching number" hunters stop looking. It is also where most of the deception begins with options (if a person is trying to pass off a "non-original" assembly of parts).
The third place to look for "matching numbers" is the frame. On a C2 the VIN number is stamped into the top of the drivers side frame near the upper rear shock mount. A restoration expert will look for this number (as will a theft recovery expert).
The fourth place to look for "matching numbers" is the transmission. On a C2 Muncie the VIN is stamped into the main transmission housing. The VIN stamp location is behind the side cover between the side cover and the separator plate located between the main housing and the tail shaft housing. Again, a restoration expert will look for this number to identify the transmission was the same as the one that was in the car when it left the assembly line.
These four locations on each car received the VIN number before leaving the assembly line. These four parts are unique to only one car, the car with the respective "matching" VIN numbers. You can have all the correct part and casting numbers, including the correct dates and codes for the model and year, and still not have "matching VIN numbers" for the pieces that the car had installed as it left the assembly line.
A NCRS restoration expert may be able to offer other VIN locations on a car (I am not a NCRS restoration expert), but these four locations are where a C2 with a Muncie carried the VIN number unique to the car as it left the assembly line. If someone from NCRS can offer more VIN locations I would welcome the helpful information (other transmission options, other parts with the VIN)?
If you have a car with the correct VIN at these four locations you can be fairly well assured the combination is original (except in the case of an "expert" in potential fraud).
An expert restorer can replace a non-original frame, birdcage, engine block, and transmission with the correct part numbers and casting dates, and still not have the "matching VIN number" pieces the car had installed as it left the assembly line ... unless they restamp the VIN on these parts (some people consider this fraud). This is the difference between "matching VIN numbers" and a "restored assembly with all the correct parts and pieces."
What is a problem for some restoration experts is finding an engine block in a car where the owner has records of it being the original block, including records of the block deck being machined (removing the "matching VIN numbers"). It's the original block that was in the car when it left the assembly line, if the records are correct, just not stamped with "matching numbers." Is it a "matching VIN numbers" car?
Chevrolet has never released records of what options were originally assembled with each VIN on the early Corvette (at least, IIRC, not for C1 & C2 series cars). This is where most of the deception begins. Without Chevrolet documentation records a rebuilder can stamp any option code on a block and change the appearance of a low performance combination into a higher performance assembly (even with a restamped VIN "matching" the frame and transmission VIN's). Some people pay extra for specific performance options (greed can be a powerful motivator for fraud). The more expert rebuilders may restamp the correct date block casting for the model year car, the less expert will stamp any block (an expert restorer would probably provide documentation and leave the stamp pad alone).
It would not be hard to build a L88 block and bolt it in front of a powerglide with the correct VIN as the frame and birdcage, and if someone was intent on assembling a unique option combination it could be done (claim one, of only one built, "as it left the assembly line"). The question is, does this style of "restoration" benefit or damage the hobby? The known fact is this style of "restoration" does improve the sales price of a given car, sometimes in the tens of thousands of dollars.
If you want a fun car to drive and enjoy, all this "matching numbers" information is worthless. If you want a restoration project, finding a car that has the four major pieces with the correct matching VIN number (or records) is a major priority.
In retrospect it's probably been a blessing that the first "restoration expert" that I witnessed looking at my car years ago immediately spotted the wrong date code on the coolant tank. This "expert" passed on recommending the car to a buyer. I wanted a good, fun, driver that was nice enough that I would not cut it up into a racecar, and I bought the car. In the subsequent years of ownership I have removed and rebuilt most of the cars parts and pieces (they wear like any car) and found the correct matching VIN in these four places (again, if an NCRS expert has found other VIN number locations on a C2 I would like to learn where). The non-VIN codes and dates are also correct on the other major assemblies of the car (or on removed parts stored in my garage) except the coolant tank that sits in the engine bay. I do not represent the car as restored or a survivor or any other qualification, it has non-original parts installed to make it more comfortable for my use.
My car could be reassembled with the same numbered and dated parts that it should have had when it left the assembly line (alternator, starter, master cylinder, bolt heads, body clips, including the matching VIN number block and transmission) if I ever decided to return it to an "NCRS correct" configuration. people tell me restoration would be attractive (i.e. more valuable) if I were to consider selling the car. Then again, if I did, I may not have as much fun watching my kids climb all over it and use their imagination to dream of winning races at Willow Springs (or laugh to myself when the "restoration experts" immediately hold their noses and walk away after reading the "non-matching" coolant tank number down at the doughnut shop).
.
There are many other numbers stamped and cast into the car parts before it leaves the assembly line (rear pumpkin codes and assembly dates, casting and part numbers, etc.), but none of these can be proven to be unique to only one car.
I'll isolate my comments to a C2 (63-67).
The first place a "matching numbers" hunter looks is the VIN tag. The VIN tag on a C2 is located on a crossmember of the birdcage under the glove box. The VIN tag is spot welded to the crossmember, just to the right of the trim tag (another useful tag to identify the original color and trim). The factory would grind paint off the crossmember before spot welding the tag, and some folks believe the grind marks are an indication of a swapped VIN tag (one of those stories people used to tell, to warn you away from the car, before
they returned to buy it for themselves).The second place to look for a "matching number" is the engine block stamp pad located just forward of the passenger side head. The stamp pad should have the same VIN number as the VIN tag. The stamp pad also has a code number line that identifies the original engine assembly location and date, and option configuration (high performance, fuel injection, etc.).
The engine block stamp pad is where most "matching number" hunters stop looking. It is also where most of the deception begins with options (if a person is trying to pass off a "non-original" assembly of parts).
The third place to look for "matching numbers" is the frame. On a C2 the VIN number is stamped into the top of the drivers side frame near the upper rear shock mount. A restoration expert will look for this number (as will a theft recovery expert).
The fourth place to look for "matching numbers" is the transmission. On a C2 Muncie the VIN is stamped into the main transmission housing. The VIN stamp location is behind the side cover between the side cover and the separator plate located between the main housing and the tail shaft housing. Again, a restoration expert will look for this number to identify the transmission was the same as the one that was in the car when it left the assembly line.
These four locations on each car received the VIN number before leaving the assembly line. These four parts are unique to only one car, the car with the respective "matching" VIN numbers. You can have all the correct part and casting numbers, including the correct dates and codes for the model and year, and still not have "matching VIN numbers" for the pieces that the car had installed as it left the assembly line.
A NCRS restoration expert may be able to offer other VIN locations on a car (I am not a NCRS restoration expert), but these four locations are where a C2 with a Muncie carried the VIN number unique to the car as it left the assembly line. If someone from NCRS can offer more VIN locations I would welcome the helpful information (other transmission options, other parts with the VIN)?
If you have a car with the correct VIN at these four locations you can be fairly well assured the combination is original (except in the case of an "expert" in potential fraud).
An expert restorer can replace a non-original frame, birdcage, engine block, and transmission with the correct part numbers and casting dates, and still not have the "matching VIN number" pieces the car had installed as it left the assembly line ... unless they restamp the VIN on these parts (some people consider this fraud). This is the difference between "matching VIN numbers" and a "restored assembly with all the correct parts and pieces."
What is a problem for some restoration experts is finding an engine block in a car where the owner has records of it being the original block, including records of the block deck being machined (removing the "matching VIN numbers"). It's the original block that was in the car when it left the assembly line, if the records are correct, just not stamped with "matching numbers." Is it a "matching VIN numbers" car?
Chevrolet has never released records of what options were originally assembled with each VIN on the early Corvette (at least, IIRC, not for C1 & C2 series cars). This is where most of the deception begins. Without Chevrolet documentation records a rebuilder can stamp any option code on a block and change the appearance of a low performance combination into a higher performance assembly (even with a restamped VIN "matching" the frame and transmission VIN's). Some people pay extra for specific performance options (greed can be a powerful motivator for fraud). The more expert rebuilders may restamp the correct date block casting for the model year car, the less expert will stamp any block (an expert restorer would probably provide documentation and leave the stamp pad alone).
It would not be hard to build a L88 block and bolt it in front of a powerglide with the correct VIN as the frame and birdcage, and if someone was intent on assembling a unique option combination it could be done (claim one, of only one built, "as it left the assembly line"). The question is, does this style of "restoration" benefit or damage the hobby? The known fact is this style of "restoration" does improve the sales price of a given car, sometimes in the tens of thousands of dollars.
If you want a fun car to drive and enjoy, all this "matching numbers" information is worthless. If you want a restoration project, finding a car that has the four major pieces with the correct matching VIN number (or records) is a major priority.
In retrospect it's probably been a blessing that the first "restoration expert" that I witnessed looking at my car years ago immediately spotted the wrong date code on the coolant tank. This "expert" passed on recommending the car to a buyer. I wanted a good, fun, driver that was nice enough that I would not cut it up into a racecar, and I bought the car. In the subsequent years of ownership I have removed and rebuilt most of the cars parts and pieces (they wear like any car) and found the correct matching VIN in these four places (again, if an NCRS expert has found other VIN number locations on a C2 I would like to learn where). The non-VIN codes and dates are also correct on the other major assemblies of the car (or on removed parts stored in my garage) except the coolant tank that sits in the engine bay. I do not represent the car as restored or a survivor or any other qualification, it has non-original parts installed to make it more comfortable for my use.
My car could be reassembled with the same numbered and dated parts that it should have had when it left the assembly line (alternator, starter, master cylinder, bolt heads, body clips, including the matching VIN number block and transmission) if I ever decided to return it to an "NCRS correct" configuration. people tell me restoration would be attractive (i.e. more valuable) if I were to consider selling the car. Then again, if I did, I may not have as much fun watching my kids climb all over it and use their imagination to dream of winning races at Willow Springs (or laugh to myself when the "restoration experts" immediately hold their noses and walk away after reading the "non-matching" coolant tank number down at the doughnut shop).
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02-14-2006, 09:14 PM
#18
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Originally Posted by hurtadogracie
Hi there. I am new to this and wondered what does it mean for numbers to match? How does one match these numbers?
Thanks in advance for your help. Is there a book or someone I am to call?
Thanks in advance for your help. Is there a book or someone I am to call?
02-15-2006, 05:56 AM
#19
Originally Posted by Vettebuyer5863
This is the sentence I am disagreeing with. I did not say numbers matching was not original. You said numbers matching is "short for all date codes are consistent to the build date." This is not right. A "correct" motor has all date codes that are consistent to the build date. A matching number motor has a VIN derivative that matches the VIN on the car. It would likely be true that if the numbers matched the VIN, then everything else (correctness, originality) would fall into place. However, matching means matching and nothing else. Its as simple as that.
You did not say if your block stamp VIN matches the VIN on the car. I assume it does. If so, it is matching, I'm not saying it isnt. But its matching because the stamp matches the VIN, not because the dates are correct.
The problem is many people use the terms matching, original and correct interchangeably. Sometimes this is a convenient way to muddy details. The fact is they are separate terms with seperate meanings.
PS: I didn't mean to say you were intentionally misleading anyone- an example: I was shopping for a '58 at B/J 2 years ago and he insisted the numbers were matching. I asked how they could be matching if there's no VIN on the block. He meant the date codes were correct. Upon inspection, the stamp was decked, showing no numbers at all. The car was presented on the stage as "numbers matching" and sold for over $77,000. I find this misleading. I think B/J should know better and call the engine what it is: correct, not matching.
You did not say if your block stamp VIN matches the VIN on the car. I assume it does. If so, it is matching, I'm not saying it isnt. But its matching because the stamp matches the VIN, not because the dates are correct.
The problem is many people use the terms matching, original and correct interchangeably. Sometimes this is a convenient way to muddy details. The fact is they are separate terms with seperate meanings.
PS: I didn't mean to say you were intentionally misleading anyone- an example: I was shopping for a '58 at B/J 2 years ago and he insisted the numbers were matching. I asked how they could be matching if there's no VIN on the block. He meant the date codes were correct. Upon inspection, the stamp was decked, showing no numbers at all. The car was presented on the stage as "numbers matching" and sold for over $77,000. I find this misleading. I think B/J should know better and call the engine what it is: correct, not matching.
Randy
02-15-2006, 10:20 AM
#20
Ever wonder why this hobby is in such a mess with people selling things as one thing when they are really something else?
If mainstream Corvette people can't agree, think about the casual Corvette owner or the salesman who isn't well-versed in Corvettes. (I'm not talking the crook here.)
Here are a few things you can count on when seeing "matching numbers" or "numbers match":
1. Often it is used to imply originality. It does not mean that.
2. Most people have as many ideas to its meaning as there are people, so virtually it is worthless as a descriptive term.
3. Not so honest sellers use it to hook a buyer into a car, thinking it is original and because many buyers only know the buzz words.
4. If you see it on ebay, it frequently is there to snag the search engine. To sell anything, you need to get them to look and it is something that makes them look.
My basic feeling - numbers matching is similar to correct but not original. The casting numbers, the stampings, date codes, etc all match the car it is in.
Correct isn't necessarily matching the car, as you can have a correctly stamped engine with the wrong VIN and be correct, yet not match.
Then original most assume to mean the whole car is original, but often it is only the block that is original.
BOTTOM LINE: Always find out what the person saying it means. It mostly won't mean what you think it does.
If mainstream Corvette people can't agree, think about the casual Corvette owner or the salesman who isn't well-versed in Corvettes. (I'm not talking the crook here.)
Here are a few things you can count on when seeing "matching numbers" or "numbers match":
1. Often it is used to imply originality. It does not mean that.
2. Most people have as many ideas to its meaning as there are people, so virtually it is worthless as a descriptive term.
3. Not so honest sellers use it to hook a buyer into a car, thinking it is original and because many buyers only know the buzz words.
4. If you see it on ebay, it frequently is there to snag the search engine. To sell anything, you need to get them to look and it is something that makes them look.
My basic feeling - numbers matching is similar to correct but not original. The casting numbers, the stampings, date codes, etc all match the car it is in.
Correct isn't necessarily matching the car, as you can have a correctly stamped engine with the wrong VIN and be correct, yet not match.
Then original most assume to mean the whole car is original, but often it is only the block that is original.
BOTTOM LINE: Always find out what the person saying it means. It mostly won't mean what you think it does.
