Electric WP on a SB C2?
03-15-2006, 11:38 AM
#1
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Thread Starter
Electric WP on a SB C2?
Anybody done it yet? What did you do for the heater? I'm thinking I'm going to have to cut into the lower rad hose to keep heat and the degas bottle. Just looking to see if anybodys done this yet.
03-15-2006, 01:04 PM
#2
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Lotsa luck - the electric water pumps have about half the flow capacity (gallons per minute) as the stock pump (or less), and are unsuitable for normal driving operation. 
03-15-2006, 02:21 PM
#3
Pro
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by JohnZ
Lotsa luck - the electric water pumps have about half the flow capacity (gallons per minute) as the stock pump (or less), and are unsuitable for normal driving operation.
Anybody with real world experience and modern day points of view try anything like this yet?
How to win friends and influence people....
03-15-2006, 06:25 PM
#5
Le Mans Master
Originally Posted by Fordracer9
Anybody done it yet? What did you do for the heater? I'm thinking I'm going to have to cut into the lower rad hose to keep heat and the degas bottle. Just looking to see if anybodys done this yet.
03-15-2006, 06:43 PM
#6
CF Senile Member
I am surprized that they flow 65 gpm. I thought that 50 was about the max.
In the past, they were most commonly used for race applications (drag stip short run time).
I would sure want to know what the reliability rating is (mtbf) for the electric pumps. Also, what kind of electric load do they pull - would an alternator upgrade be needed?
Good luck.
Dave
In the past, they were most commonly used for race applications (drag stip short run time).
I would sure want to know what the reliability rating is (mtbf) for the electric pumps. Also, what kind of electric load do they pull - would an alternator upgrade be needed?
Good luck.
Dave
03-16-2006, 10:55 AM
#7
Safety Car
what kind of electric load do they pull - would an alternator upgrade be needed?
What is the amp draw on a pump putting out 65 gpm with (what?) five foot (water) of head pressure?
I don't see how an electric water pump with a constant speed could be an advantage over the conventional belt driven pump for normal street operation. For the most part your regular pump follows along with engine load; light load & low speed = low flow, heavy load & high speed = high flow.
03-16-2006, 11:48 AM
#8
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Originally Posted by Fordracer9
And since they are so unsuited to normal driving operation, how come the new Cady's come with electric pumps ?
03-16-2006, 12:03 PM
#9
Race Director
65 Gpm? So what may I ask is powering that beast? The high end 50 GPM pumps are all 24v systems from what I've seen. Please post us some pics so we can see the 65 GPM pump you have. If it's available it would work.
So what may I ask is powering that beast? The high end 50 GPM pumps are all 24v systems from what I've seen. Please post us some pics so we can see the 65 GPM pump you have. If it's available it would work.
03-16-2006, 12:05 PM
#10
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by JohnZ
Lotsa luck - the electric water pumps have about half the flow capacity (gallons per minute) as the stock pump (or less), and are unsuitable for normal driving operation.
Lotsa luck - the electric water pumps have about half the flow capacity (gallons per minute) as the stock pump (or less), and are unsuitable for normal driving operation.
Originally Posted by JFordracer9
The pump I've got flows 65 GPM (that's more than stock actually). And since they are so unsuited to normal driving operation, how come the new Cady's come with electric pumps.
Anybody with real world experience and modern day points of view try anything like this yet?
Bwahahahaaa!! That's got to be one of the funniest posts I've read in a while. Talk about not knowing who you just put down!!! That's like telling Colin Powell he doesn't know crap about military operations.
03-16-2006, 01:19 PM
#11
Pro
Thread Starter
Guy's, If you don't have any factual info, or haven't tried this yourself, please don't bother to respond. This isn't the 70's anymore. Lot's of things that used to be "race car only" are showing up all over the place on street cars. I wasn't trying to put anybody down, and haven't even started to try to insult anybody, so if I have, I appologize. It just seems like some people are still making decissions based on info from 20+ years ago. Times have changed, and an electric WP is not exactly a radical mod anymore.
http://store.summitracing.com/
Draws just 11 amps and flows 60gpm @ 12V. FWIW, I do have a 140A one wire Powermaster alternator going in with the new motor.
http://store.summitracing.com/
Draws just 11 amps and flows 60gpm @ 12V. FWIW, I do have a 140A one wire Powermaster alternator going in with the new motor.
03-16-2006, 01:40 PM
#12
Race Director
The link does not work. Meziere is the premier manufactures of Electric water pumps and have no 12V pumps that will do more than 35-40 gpm. The website says 55 gpm @12v @ 8a however the text for all their pumps lists the following...
Big-time cooling for big-time performance.
Meziere 100 Series electric water pumps deliver 35-40 gpm of flow. Because they're electric, you won't have the usual horsepower loss at high rpm caused by a mechanical pump's impeller. Plus, their lightweight billet aluminum construction reduces overall engine weight. These pumps also feature CNC-machined aluminum housings, epoxy-coated motor windings, an RF suppression circuit, and a one-piece carbon-ceramic seal. They're available for a wide variety of V8 engines, including LT1 and LS1.
You are not putting anyone down it's just been discussed with good frequency and all of the those before that have touted the electric water pump have run out of facts before the fight even starts. If you have information and links to the websites where you find them by all means carry on and let the debate begin... Dave..
Big-time cooling for big-time performance.
Meziere 100 Series electric water pumps deliver 35-40 gpm of flow. Because they're electric, you won't have the usual horsepower loss at high rpm caused by a mechanical pump's impeller. Plus, their lightweight billet aluminum construction reduces overall engine weight. These pumps also feature CNC-machined aluminum housings, epoxy-coated motor windings, an RF suppression circuit, and a one-piece carbon-ceramic seal. They're available for a wide variety of V8 engines, including LT1 and LS1.
You are not putting anyone down it's just been discussed with good frequency and all of the those before that have touted the electric water pump have run out of facts before the fight even starts. If you have information and links to the websites where you find them by all means carry on and let the debate begin... Dave..
03-16-2006, 01:53 PM
#13
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There is no free lunch.
The engineer hidden deep inside me has a few observations:
An electric water pump is not 100% efficient, input vs. output. Not even close.
An alternator is not 100% efficienct, input vs. output. Not even close. (Didn't I just say something similar ?)
A mechanically-driven water pump is pretty damn efficent. Yeah...pulley-belt drag losses...but they're miniscule. As heat load increases (RPM goes up) the system 'self-servos' into increased output. Nothing to fail, except a belt,and the MTBF of the belt is pretty freaking high, compared to electrical components.
An electric water pump needs some control system to profide appropriate flow control...one more thing to fail. Maybe I'm just a freak, but I fail to see how, even with no head pressure (i.e. 'no lift'), a 12VDC electric pump can deliver 55-65 gpm with 10A. current. That's basically 120 watts power requirement for 55+gpm...and that just ain't happening in my world.
Finally, with a mechanical pump, you can drive your car for at least 1-2+ hours on the battery if your alternator craps out...you don't need much power to run a 'points/coil/distributor' ignition system. With a water pump trying to move 20-40gpm, you're going to be walking in just a matter of minutes.
I understand why electric pumps exist...drag racers use a 'total loss' electrical system, and only need to power the pump for a few minutes, and don't have to deal with the parasitic drag of a mechanical water pump. If I wasn't exclusively going drag racing, why would I want one ?
Maybe I'm missing something. My basic question: What 'problem' does an electric water pump solve ?
The engineer hidden deep inside me has a few observations:
An electric water pump is not 100% efficient, input vs. output. Not even close.
An alternator is not 100% efficienct, input vs. output. Not even close. (Didn't I just say something similar ?)
A mechanically-driven water pump is pretty damn efficent. Yeah...pulley-belt drag losses...but they're miniscule. As heat load increases (RPM goes up) the system 'self-servos' into increased output. Nothing to fail, except a belt,and the MTBF of the belt is pretty freaking high, compared to electrical components.
An electric water pump needs some control system to profide appropriate flow control...one more thing to fail. Maybe I'm just a freak, but I fail to see how, even with no head pressure (i.e. 'no lift'), a 12VDC electric pump can deliver 55-65 gpm with 10A. current. That's basically 120 watts power requirement for 55+gpm...and that just ain't happening in my world.
Finally, with a mechanical pump, you can drive your car for at least 1-2+ hours on the battery if your alternator craps out...you don't need much power to run a 'points/coil/distributor' ignition system. With a water pump trying to move 20-40gpm, you're going to be walking in just a matter of minutes.
I understand why electric pumps exist...drag racers use a 'total loss' electrical system, and only need to power the pump for a few minutes, and don't have to deal with the parasitic drag of a mechanical water pump. If I wasn't exclusively going drag racing, why would I want one ?
Maybe I'm missing something. My basic question: What 'problem' does an electric water pump solve ?
03-16-2006, 01:59 PM
#14
Le Mans Master
Originally Posted by Islander21
Bwahahahaaa!! That's got to be one of the funniest posts I've read in a while. Talk about not knowing who you just put down!!! That's like telling Colin Powell he doesn't know crap about military operations.
I just read this thread and when I got to that I just about brought up a lung I laughed so hard! Perfect anology too Islander.geez, saying John doesn't know his stuff.
I don't think John has ever posted anything without the hard, cold facts within inches of his hands to back himself up, not that he would need it. Ain't too many people going to try and debate him. That's like trying to debate Duke on camshaft info.
fordracer, I wish you luck my man........
03-16-2006, 02:03 PM
#15
Originally Posted by Fordracer9
The pump I've got flows 65 GPM (that's more than stock actually). And since they are so unsuited to normal driving operation, how come the new Cady's come with electric pumps
Anybody with real world experience and modern day points of view try anything like this yet?
Anybody with real world experience and modern day points of view try anything like this yet?
I may be mistaken, but wasn't JohnZ the Viper production Director/Engineer?
Last edited by ghostrider20; 03-16-2006 at 02:18 PM.
03-16-2006, 02:13 PM
#16
http://store.summitracing.com/
Remember this. If you put, "BUY THIS SO YOU WILL FEEL BETTER" In front of everything you read in those mags, it will make sense.
How would this be an "upgrade"
Basic conservation of energy principles would dictate that going from Mechanical power (Crank) to electrical power (Alternator) back to mechanical (Electric motor) is an inefficient use of power. Now if you NEED this system, for clearance, space, weight, etc.then that is a differant story. Not trying to talk you out of your "mod" but as mentioned there is really no benifit from it.
Spend the money on a solid cam?
Mark
Remember this. If you put, "BUY THIS SO YOU WILL FEEL BETTER" In front of everything you read in those mags, it will make sense.
How would this be an "upgrade"
Basic conservation of energy principles would dictate that going from Mechanical power (Crank) to electrical power (Alternator) back to mechanical (Electric motor) is an inefficient use of power. Now if you NEED this system, for clearance, space, weight, etc.then that is a differant story. Not trying to talk you out of your "mod" but as mentioned there is really no benifit from it.
Spend the money on a solid cam?
Mark
03-16-2006, 03:43 PM
#17
Man, you just made my day. I can't stop laughing. You just wrote to probably THE smartest forum member here And then you irked the other engineers to chime in. 
You've probably never seen John's Grandsport either, built by the guru himself. Real World. He is the real world Dude! Thanks for the belly busting laugh though. Great thread.
Dan
You've probably never seen John's Grandsport either, built by the guru himself. Real World. He is the real world Dude! Thanks for the belly busting laugh though. Great thread.Dan
03-16-2006, 05:15 PM
#19
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Out of boredom, I did the math on the the electrical water pump - 12VDC @ 11amps = 132 watts, which converts to 0.176 horspower. Now...somebody show me fractional hp DC electric pump (like...barely 1/6th HP), that can move 50+gpm, at even just a 12" head, and I'm gonna buy one of them for my well, so I can flush the potty next time the power goes out.
03-16-2006, 07:35 PM
#20
Pro
E water pumps
I'm running the test real soon and will post results. CSR electric pump on a modded zz3 in a Fiero. 100's of Fiero conversions with everything from zz motors to LS1's and Northstars are already on the streets with E-Pumps. No complaints and the rest of the system is stock (better radiator, but not near the efficiency of the DeWitts that some of us run).
"V8 Archie" ( a real character, think Jeff Leech) claims that many times the conversions run too cool.
My neighbor runs a built 440 wedge in an old Dodge with a Mezzierre and he has no problems.
I'll post in a few weeks when we light it up. I even drilled/tapped out one leg of the pump for the heater circuit. Remember when we were scared of electric fuel pumps? Electronic ignitions?
I'll tell you tho... the plumbing on that little Pontiac is a real challenge, we have $250 in AN fittings and hoses.
Daffy
"V8 Archie" ( a real character, think Jeff Leech) claims that many times the conversions run too cool.
My neighbor runs a built 440 wedge in an old Dodge with a Mezzierre and he has no problems.
I'll post in a few weeks when we light it up. I even drilled/tapped out one leg of the pump for the heater circuit. Remember when we were scared of electric fuel pumps? Electronic ignitions?
I'll tell you tho... the plumbing on that little Pontiac is a real challenge, we have $250 in AN fittings and hoses.
Daffy
