Question for those with ECI front disc brakes, and a rear disc rant
05-14-2006, 01:12 PM
#1
12.14 w/ the original 327
Thread Starter
Question for those with ECI front disc brakes, and a rear disc rant
The brake hoses they sent me are about two inches too short to allow for full wheel travel. I'm not sure of the application the ones I was sent came from. I'd like to use the stock tab on the frame to mount the hose. If you have a hose that works, I'd appreciate hearing about it.
I'm gonna check the parts stores today and see what I can find. Unfortunately, today being Sunday, the good shops are closed.
Now on to the rear discs. ECI's rear disc kit was even more pleasant to install. It consists of four brackets. 2 calipers and rotors. Neither of the two backets that bolt to the rear housing fit the car. So, I called ECI tech, and after taking measurements were told that I had the correct brackets, and that he knows they fit, because he cut them himself... able to insert one of three bolts (when mounter to the rear) is apparently a correct fit. Nonetheless, I make another attempt to make them fit. No go. I call back and request that new brackets be sent. ECI instructs me to grind them a little. That is exactly what I was expecting to do to make a bolt-on kit fit.
After removing over 1/4 inch in two places from each rear housing bracket, I'm finally able to get their "bolt-on" brackets to fit the car. The caliper brackets were built to the same, high ECI standards. ECI's caliper brackets hit the ECI bolts that hold the housing brackets to the rear. I call ECI back and get more of their wonderful tech support. I learn that their caliper brackets do not hit the heads of the nuts/bolts from their housing bracket. I try explaining that they do in fact hit, but learn that I must be doing something wrong. Some more time on the grinder, and another trip to the store to buy another stone. Voila, the bolt-on caliper brackets now clear.
I'm finally making progress. Put the rotor on, but can't mount the caliper. It will not physically fit over the rotor, I need about 1/4" clearance to the inbound side. Yes, I used their supplied spacers. Yes, I cut my original backing plates , per ECI's instructions (BTW, cutting my original backing plates to use as a spacer does not constitute bolt-on to me). For a $ 525+ bolt-on rear disc kit, is it unreasonable to expect a stamped steel spacer, rather than cutting up your original backing plates? A grinder won't fix this one.
I asked a lot of questions before I ordered. What I was told and what I was delivered were two entirely different things. The rear disc kit I installed on my chevelle from www.true-connections.com took less than a couple of hours to install. I rebuilt the entire fron end of the 62 in less time than I spent trying to make ECI's bolt-on rear disc kit bolt-on. The engine swap took less time.
The wife and I were planning a trip to Nashville in the Vette for our honeymoon. We timed it to coincide with CF Cruise-in. I've lost two weekends and several week nights dealing with ECI's bolt-on kit. It's not looking good that we will make it now.
Oh well, I paid an inflated premium, to a reputable American company. I did not try to cheap out or do anything half ****. I got what I paid for.
I actually cut the backing plates from the 59, so I still have the 62's backing plates. I think I'm going to try to make it a go with rear drums.
I'm gonna check the parts stores today and see what I can find. Unfortunately, today being Sunday, the good shops are closed.
Now on to the rear discs. ECI's rear disc kit was even more pleasant to install. It consists of four brackets. 2 calipers and rotors. Neither of the two backets that bolt to the rear housing fit the car. So, I called ECI tech, and after taking measurements were told that I had the correct brackets, and that he knows they fit, because he cut them himself... able to insert one of three bolts (when mounter to the rear) is apparently a correct fit. Nonetheless, I make another attempt to make them fit. No go. I call back and request that new brackets be sent. ECI instructs me to grind them a little. That is exactly what I was expecting to do to make a bolt-on kit fit.
After removing over 1/4 inch in two places from each rear housing bracket, I'm finally able to get their "bolt-on" brackets to fit the car. The caliper brackets were built to the same, high ECI standards. ECI's caliper brackets hit the ECI bolts that hold the housing brackets to the rear. I call ECI back and get more of their wonderful tech support. I learn that their caliper brackets do not hit the heads of the nuts/bolts from their housing bracket. I try explaining that they do in fact hit, but learn that I must be doing something wrong. Some more time on the grinder, and another trip to the store to buy another stone. Voila, the bolt-on caliper brackets now clear.
I'm finally making progress. Put the rotor on, but can't mount the caliper. It will not physically fit over the rotor, I need about 1/4" clearance to the inbound side. Yes, I used their supplied spacers. Yes, I cut my original backing plates , per ECI's instructions (BTW, cutting my original backing plates to use as a spacer does not constitute bolt-on to me). For a $ 525+ bolt-on rear disc kit, is it unreasonable to expect a stamped steel spacer, rather than cutting up your original backing plates? A grinder won't fix this one.
I asked a lot of questions before I ordered. What I was told and what I was delivered were two entirely different things. The rear disc kit I installed on my chevelle from www.true-connections.com took less than a couple of hours to install. I rebuilt the entire fron end of the 62 in less time than I spent trying to make ECI's bolt-on rear disc kit bolt-on. The engine swap took less time.
The wife and I were planning a trip to Nashville in the Vette for our honeymoon. We timed it to coincide with CF Cruise-in. I've lost two weekends and several week nights dealing with ECI's bolt-on kit. It's not looking good that we will make it now.
Oh well, I paid an inflated premium, to a reputable American company. I did not try to cheap out or do anything half ****. I got what I paid for.
I actually cut the backing plates from the 59, so I still have the 62's backing plates. I think I'm going to try to make it a go with rear drums.
05-14-2006, 01:54 PM
#2
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Wes,
I have front discs (from a different company), but I think they both use the same 70ish Camaro/big Chevy/Monte calipers. My hoses fit (are long enough), so you should be able to get the proper hoses. If you need a length dimension, I can get it for you (but caliper mounting location will cause a possible variation on the length required).
As for the rear discs, a buddy has them (but again, not ECI). They are mid 80's Caddy calipers with the mechaical emer. brake. From what I have seen (in driving his 62 vs. mine), I am very pleased with the rear drums and my "system". His pedal throw is more, is less firm, and his emer. brake system needed to be highly revised to get it to work at all (and is much higher effort). He had to highly modify his rear disc brackets in order for them to clear the radius rods.
Good luck,
Plasticman
I have front discs (from a different company), but I think they both use the same 70ish Camaro/big Chevy/Monte calipers. My hoses fit (are long enough), so you should be able to get the proper hoses. If you need a length dimension, I can get it for you (but caliper mounting location will cause a possible variation on the length required).
As for the rear discs, a buddy has them (but again, not ECI). They are mid 80's Caddy calipers with the mechaical emer. brake. From what I have seen (in driving his 62 vs. mine), I am very pleased with the rear drums and my "system". His pedal throw is more, is less firm, and his emer. brake system needed to be highly revised to get it to work at all (and is much higher effort). He had to highly modify his rear disc brackets in order for them to clear the radius rods.
Good luck,
Plasticman
05-14-2006, 03:18 PM
#3
12.14 w/ the original 327
Thread Starter
Plasticman, I just got back from Pep Boys. They did't have any brake hoses in stock for the listed applications on the ECI instruction sheet. My front hoses are 15 1/4". From the specs on Pep Boys computer the mid-late70s GM cars used the same length hose as I have.
At this point, I'm thinking I'd like to have some hoses made that are 2 inches longer than what I have. The trick is finding a shop that can make the hoses, and is open when I get off work. I'll be looking for a shop in the Torrance area if anyone knows of one. The other choice would be to run longer hard line from the frame junction block through the flex hose "L" bracket to compensate for the inadequate flex hose length.
In hindsight, I'm sure the 62 would have been fine with front disc only, and knowing what I know now, that is how I would have proceeded.
The drums are fine for occasional jaunts, but my experience has been they are lacking for LA rush hour traffic. Traffic, when moving, will often go 70 - 80 mph in near bumper to bumper condition. The drums are lacking under these circumstances... if you leave extra distance to allow for stopping, you will be repeatedly cut-off by idiots who are going faster than the car in front of you, and in turn immediately slam on their brakes. In 1995 I swapped Chevelle front and later Camaro rear discs on my 63 Nova SS conv. It was by far the best mod I made to that car, and was done in a day... the rears literally bolted on, and I didn't even have to turn the axle flanges down. The 4 wheel PDB on the 65 Malibu is absolutely great.
Regarding the rear brakes, I'm considering running an in-line 10# residual pressure valve and an adjustable prop valve to the stock drums from the rear of the master cylinder. Does this sound acceptable? Wes
At this point, I'm thinking I'd like to have some hoses made that are 2 inches longer than what I have. The trick is finding a shop that can make the hoses, and is open when I get off work. I'll be looking for a shop in the Torrance area if anyone knows of one. The other choice would be to run longer hard line from the frame junction block through the flex hose "L" bracket to compensate for the inadequate flex hose length.
In hindsight, I'm sure the 62 would have been fine with front disc only, and knowing what I know now, that is how I would have proceeded.
The drums are fine for occasional jaunts, but my experience has been they are lacking for LA rush hour traffic. Traffic, when moving, will often go 70 - 80 mph in near bumper to bumper condition. The drums are lacking under these circumstances... if you leave extra distance to allow for stopping, you will be repeatedly cut-off by idiots who are going faster than the car in front of you, and in turn immediately slam on their brakes. In 1995 I swapped Chevelle front and later Camaro rear discs on my 63 Nova SS conv. It was by far the best mod I made to that car, and was done in a day... the rears literally bolted on, and I didn't even have to turn the axle flanges down. The 4 wheel PDB on the 65 Malibu is absolutely great.
Regarding the rear brakes, I'm considering running an in-line 10# residual pressure valve and an adjustable prop valve to the stock drums from the rear of the master cylinder. Does this sound acceptable? Wes
05-14-2006, 05:16 PM
#4
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Wes,
Yes, that is the length of my front hoses. They have worked just fine for me (since last fall when I installed the front discs). I did verify at the time of installation that the hoses were long enough, but I did not like the odd bend they take right at the caliper. It is about a 1.5" radius bend (almost a full "U" in shape), and I keep an eye on it. Feel that these hoses will need replacement sooner than later, and I will see what I can do about removing that tight bend. A fellow forum member did tell me how he revised the caliper mounting area to rotate the hoses (grind off some of the retainer area iron, so that the hose can be rotated to a better direction), but I have not done it yet.
Note that the fronts do most of the braking (60% on up). My buddy's 62 has C2/C3 Vette 4 piston front calipers with the 80's Caddy rear discs, and I prefer mine in both stopping power and brake feel. He had installed the rear discs to stop the nose diving that his front discs were causing (I don't see that effect on my Vette, so my front discs and rear drums appear to be pulling down fairly equally). Note that I was happy about my braking when I had all drums (I could lock up all 4 wheels if need be), but it was the uneven front brake induced steering that caused me to go to the front discs, and they have solved that completely.
On both Vettes we have removed the check valve in the original master cylinder due to noticable drag at the wheels that it causes. Think a 10 psi residual check valve would cause similar drag. As for the proportioning valve, both of our Vettes stop very straight (without a valve), with no sign of the dreaded rear lockup first. So we have elected not to use one. He drives his in the rain all the time, and never has seen the need for the valve. Mine melts if it gets wet, so can't say it needs one or not. Note that I keep the rear drums adjusted pretty tight (just enough clearance to not have drag), so I assume that as the brake shoes wear, the need for a residual pressure valve might come into play (but not yet).
Good luck,
Plasticman
Yes, that is the length of my front hoses. They have worked just fine for me (since last fall when I installed the front discs). I did verify at the time of installation that the hoses were long enough, but I did not like the odd bend they take right at the caliper. It is about a 1.5" radius bend (almost a full "U" in shape), and I keep an eye on it. Feel that these hoses will need replacement sooner than later, and I will see what I can do about removing that tight bend. A fellow forum member did tell me how he revised the caliper mounting area to rotate the hoses (grind off some of the retainer area iron, so that the hose can be rotated to a better direction), but I have not done it yet.
Note that the fronts do most of the braking (60% on up). My buddy's 62 has C2/C3 Vette 4 piston front calipers with the 80's Caddy rear discs, and I prefer mine in both stopping power and brake feel. He had installed the rear discs to stop the nose diving that his front discs were causing (I don't see that effect on my Vette, so my front discs and rear drums appear to be pulling down fairly equally). Note that I was happy about my braking when I had all drums (I could lock up all 4 wheels if need be), but it was the uneven front brake induced steering that caused me to go to the front discs, and they have solved that completely.
On both Vettes we have removed the check valve in the original master cylinder due to noticable drag at the wheels that it causes. Think a 10 psi residual check valve would cause similar drag. As for the proportioning valve, both of our Vettes stop very straight (without a valve), with no sign of the dreaded rear lockup first. So we have elected not to use one. He drives his in the rain all the time, and never has seen the need for the valve. Mine melts if it gets wet, so can't say it needs one or not. Note that I keep the rear drums adjusted pretty tight (just enough clearance to not have drag), so I assume that as the brake shoes wear, the need for a residual pressure valve might come into play (but not yet).
Good luck,
Plasticman
Last edited by Plasticman; 05-14-2006 at 05:22 PM.
05-14-2006, 06:57 PM
#5
12.14 w/ the original 327
Thread Starter
Plasticman, it sounds like the ECI set-up is similar to what your running. I think I could physically get the hose on, but there is no way I would trust it. The way the hose aligns, the base of the U would be towards the front of the car, which really doesn't make sense. Are you still running the stock master cylinder and stock brake lines?
ECI recommended runing the front MC port to the front disc brakes, and the rear port to the rear discs, with no prop valve. I plumbed the front lines such that I was using the stock brake line junctions, stock lines for the cross over, and the short ones for the brake junction to the flex hose. On the passenger side junction, I plugged the rear port (that goes to the rear brake flex hose junction). I was going to plumb a standalone line for the rear discs, but that's all changed now. If you're have good results with a stock MC and stock lines, I might give that a shot.
Anyways, I just lubed the suspension, and I'm done with the brakes for now. I'm gonna put the car back on the ground, drop the distributor and fire this thing up. Hopefully the cam break-in will go better than the brakes. Wes
ECI recommended runing the front MC port to the front disc brakes, and the rear port to the rear discs, with no prop valve. I plumbed the front lines such that I was using the stock brake line junctions, stock lines for the cross over, and the short ones for the brake junction to the flex hose. On the passenger side junction, I plugged the rear port (that goes to the rear brake flex hose junction). I was going to plumb a standalone line for the rear discs, but that's all changed now. If you're have good results with a stock MC and stock lines, I might give that a shot.
Anyways, I just lubed the suspension, and I'm done with the brakes for now. I'm gonna put the car back on the ground, drop the distributor and fire this thing up. Hopefully the cam break-in will go better than the brakes. Wes
05-14-2006, 07:30 PM
#6
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Wes,
Yes, the ECI setup was almost identical from what I saw. The caliper puts the hose mostly aimming upward and slightly aimming forward. So the hose has to bend backwards and up to the frame mounted hard line. Not the best by any means, but has worked (so far).
Yes, still running the stock single port master and all of the stock lines, except the 2 going to the front calipers (which were supplied with the disc kit). But as stated before, I did remove the residual pressure valve from the stock MC due to brake drag. I have no issues whatsoever with this setup, other than the induced paranoia over a single port MC. Yes a dual port is "safer", but have had a failure (on my 70 Vette where a rear brake line rusted out) where I could hardly stop with a 2 port MC, and still used the Emer. brake.
On a side note, I used Castrol LMA brake fluid. My buddy used the cheapest brake fluid Walmart sells. His fluid turned brown a month later. I checked mine today (installed since Nov.), and it looks brand new. Note this is humid Florida, and rain has been pretty scrace, but humidity is still high. The difference in fluid coloration is dramatic, and he has a brand new replacement MC (still a single port OEM style).
My MC was rebuilt (might as well when I removed the residual pressure valve). Note that MC part kits still available from NAPA.
Plasticman
Yes, the ECI setup was almost identical from what I saw. The caliper puts the hose mostly aimming upward and slightly aimming forward. So the hose has to bend backwards and up to the frame mounted hard line. Not the best by any means, but has worked (so far).
Yes, still running the stock single port master and all of the stock lines, except the 2 going to the front calipers (which were supplied with the disc kit). But as stated before, I did remove the residual pressure valve from the stock MC due to brake drag. I have no issues whatsoever with this setup, other than the induced paranoia over a single port MC. Yes a dual port is "safer", but have had a failure (on my 70 Vette where a rear brake line rusted out) where I could hardly stop with a 2 port MC, and still used the Emer. brake.
On a side note, I used Castrol LMA brake fluid. My buddy used the cheapest brake fluid Walmart sells. His fluid turned brown a month later. I checked mine today (installed since Nov.), and it looks brand new. Note this is humid Florida, and rain has been pretty scrace, but humidity is still high. The difference in fluid coloration is dramatic, and he has a brand new replacement MC (still a single port OEM style).
My MC was rebuilt (might as well when I removed the residual pressure valve). Note that MC part kits still available from NAPA.
Plasticman
05-14-2006, 07:33 PM
#7
Burning Brakes
I think that Plasticman and I used the same front disk brake supplier. I had to grind some of the casting away so that the brake line would point upward and fit. Pardon the surface rust. Hope this helps!
John
John
05-14-2006, 08:21 PM
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Wes - I ordered the front disc conversion from ECI about a month ago. The first guy I talked to was not at all helpful and seemed bothered by the fact I wanted to spend several hundred dollars with them. The next time I called a different guy was very friendly and helpful and even mentioned that the hoses would be too short and told me to order 17s from Godman Hi-Perf. He gave me the number so I hung up and immediately called Godman. No shopping around so maybe I could have saved a few bucks but Godman sent nice braided hoses with banjo fittings that day. Their number is 901.382.7404
Since its prime cruising time here in TX Im waiting for it to get 100+ when its no fun to drive on my black vinyl before I start my summer project to re-do the front brakes.
Good luck getting it all back together!
Todd
Since its prime cruising time here in TX Im waiting for it to get 100+ when its no fun to drive on my black vinyl before I start my summer project to re-do the front brakes.
Good luck getting it all back together!
Todd
05-14-2006, 10:39 PM
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Todd,
Thanks!
Wes and John,
Went to the Godman web site and pulled up a variety of brake hose ends, including 90 degree banjo fittings that should solve the problem:
http://www.godmanhiperformance.com/i...tended%20banjo
Plasticman
Thanks!
Wes and John,
Went to the Godman web site and pulled up a variety of brake hose ends, including 90 degree banjo fittings that should solve the problem:
http://www.godmanhiperformance.com/i...tended%20banjo
Plasticman
05-14-2006, 11:19 PM
#10
Le Mans Master
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2019 Corvette of the Year Winner
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yikes, this isn't a good vendor at all if you ask me, IMHO, the stuff I got from Myers Racing has gone in NO PROBLEM, everything lines up. I wish the instructions were a little more complete, but for the most part everything is good.
Sorry you are having such a bad time......it makes these kind of projects NOT FUN!
Herb
Sorry you are having such a bad time......it makes these kind of projects NOT FUN!
Herb
05-15-2006, 03:22 AM
#11
12.14 w/ the original 327
Thread Starter
Thanks for the brake hose suggestions and all the other suggestions. It looks like if I were to grind on the calipers as shown, I could probably get the brake hose secured, but I'd be nervous about points of full extension with the 15 1/4" hose. I'll make some phone calls tomorrow and go from there.
firstgear, my co-worker went with a Jim Meyer's front end and loves it. I tried to talk my wife into it, but she didn't want to spend the money.
firstgear, my co-worker went with a Jim Meyer's front end and loves it. I tried to talk my wife into it, but she didn't want to spend the money.
05-15-2006, 06:50 AM
#12
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Originally Posted by wesmigletz
firstgear, my co-worker went with a Jim Meyer's front end and loves it. I tried to talk my wife into it, but she didn't want to spend the money.
Only thing I regret so far was not spending the money to go with Baer or Wilwood brakes all around...it has Explorer rear disc brakes and F car front disc brakes. They will stop it no problem.....I think the other types would have looked better....live and learn....next car!
525, brake, brakes, chevelle, corvette, disc, disk, eci, front, installation, installed, instructions, insturuction, proportioning, rear, tune, valve
