Oriondriver

Okay... I am not sure I can completely relay into words just how awesome the Tuning For Beer-Seattle session was for me personally.. but I will give it a try.

I drove down on Saturday morning for the second session... we had a little meet and greet with coffee and bagels... then Lars conducted about a 45 minute overview of how the engineers from GM designed motors to be set up and how they really never maximize the optimum tuning potential for a variety of reasons. On a wipe board he plotted out the "pefect curve" as a baseline... degrees of timing across RPM.... PHENOMONALLY informative to say the least. The takeaway being that 90% of all troubles can be solved by fixing the ignition and timing first... and then looking at the carburetion.

So... he then began the classroom work... first taking the initial timing and subsequetly plotting out the curve against the "pefect curve" to recognize graphically the margin of improvement that was available... then the fun began with breaking down a C2... he showed how to take out the distributor and rebuild it.... COMPLETE REBUILD! His wealth of knowledge is something to behold. So after rebuilding the distributor and discussing some of the peculiarities one might find and associated fixes (springs, shims, grease, gear wear, etc)... he put it back in and went back to the timing... again plotting it against the "perfect curve"... keep in mind that we were also looking at the vacuum effects as they apply to the curve.... making educated choices as to the effects of mainfold vaccum and ported vacuum on the car... listening and feeling the car as you go and making adjustments accordingly... the interesting thing was that not every car was the same... despite similar set ups... again... listening to the car and feeling the changes! Once we were content with the timing and ignition set up... remember... 90% of all problems can be fixed by looking at the ignition and timing FIRST. He broke down the carb...

Not only did he break the carb down but discussed the theory of operation of various carbs... again, he talked about the common problems found in the carbs, after market carbs, rebuild kits, etc and the associated fixes. His exacting detail is simply incredible... one comment was noted by one of the car owners... "close enough ain't good enough, huh?".... Lars attention to detail and tolerances are extremely tight! So having completely tweaked the carb it goes back on the car and time to tune it! He then proceeds to explain his techniques for tuning the carb and in the end... every car was running smooth and sounding better than it did coming into the shop. AMAZING!

Now for a quick test drive... and not a single owner came back without a HUGE SMILE on their face and eager to dive into the next car.

All in all it was a spectacular day... I made some new friends... learned a butt load... and completely understand my car! If you have any desire to take advantage of such an opportunity I would highly encourage it... Lars is simply an amazing guy with a wealth of information that just enjoys passing on the art of tuning carbureted cars.. it was worth every penny and then some to just be there!! Which brings up a great point... even going as an observer will serve you well...

Special thanks to Scott for taking the lead, Mark for giving us the facility to use and all of the guys for signing up.

Lars... you are the man!

Thanks
Scott

427-390

I too was at the 2nd tuning session on Saturday and can attest to everything Scott menitioned. Lars was simply amazing! Lars took the time to answer all of our questions and impart some of his own stories and experiences too. In the beginning, Lars said that we would see some improvement on our cars, how much, he couldn't promise. Well, after he got done with each of our cars, I can attest the the improvement was dramatic on each and every one of the cars. Lars, you are too modest! When he got done with my own car, the change was almost like night and day. Lars I want to thank you again for all of your help. I echo Scott's observation that if anyone has the opportunity to attend one of his tuning sessions, don't miss out!

I met some great guys at this event and I also want to thank Scott A, Scott P. and Mark for getting all of us together and for the hospitality. It was one great time. I hope we can all stay in touch and get together in the near future. Maybe Lk. Sammamish for the Corvette meet on Father's Day next year?

Thanks,

Tony

lars

I'd like to thank all of you guys in Seattle who got together to set up this Tuning for Beer Tour: That was a ton of fun, and you really have some great cars! It was truly my pleasure meeting you all, and I very much appreciate your trust and hospitality in letting me tear your cars apart and burning some rubber off your rear tires.. Thank you for a fantastic weekend!!

Joemac8

OK you've sold me- LARS, when are you coming to Chicago? (After the white stuff of course!) There are lots of us here that could use help.

When?

sixt1vette

Glad to hear from you all that the Seatle tuning session was a good one.
My brother from Olympia attended the friday session from Olympia (he was supposed to have taken his '51 small-block powered Fiat for the drive up) so that he can fly out to see me here in Atlanta this week to use Lars' instruction when to tune my '61 vette. I've heard from my brother that the friday session was excellent as well. Can't wait to hear the follow-up on the lessons learned this week and see what they can do for my wimpy '61.

66L36Coupe

I was fortunate to attend both Friday and Saturday sessions. The only regret I have was not having the extra time to get to know Lars better. For those of you who have not had the privilege of meeting Lars, he is one of the most self deprecating guys around. His formal education in medical engineering and professional background in general is congruous with his meticulous nature making muscle cars run. He’s the kind of guy who doesn’t boast about what he knows – he’ll show you and back it up with a data and the best tune your car has ever had. After he lays hands on a muscle car, it RUNS. On top of that, his passion for the artistry of the tune is infectious. If you haven’t thought about sponsoring a Tuning for Beer Tour in your area, you should.

Lars has an uncanny ability to explain the fundamentals of how ignition and carburetion work as a system while at the same time weaving in great entertainment (and beer!!). He sites science but even more important - the art of tuning. He showed us that tuning is a sensory experience; by listening, smelling & feeling how the cars respond to various tweaks and adjustments, and that by sticking to simple fundamentals, all of us can make these cars run 100% better than they did when they were driven down the loading dock in St. Louis.

The next best part after the learning was sitting in the passenger seat of my own cars ('66 426/390 & '69 350/350) with Lars’ piloting the test drives. Still wearing a perma-grin and marveling at the 3rd gear wheel spin. Thanks Lars! Looking fwd to staying in touch.

Finally, a big thanks to Scott and his buddy Mark, for coordinating and hosting the event. Great people, great hospitality, great venue and a helluva good time. It was a pleasure to meet all of you guys and I’m looking forward to meeting up again sometime soon.

DSR

Lars if you ever come to the Toronto area I would be very interested in your tuning class for me and my '65. Dave

Joel 67

I second that.

427-390

Dan,

I couldn't have stated it any better. I only wish I could have attended the Friday session too. It was truly amazing how he was able to improve the performance on each and every one of the cars he touched. You missed the real fun when he took apart the distributor (MSD, if I'm not mistaken) on the '69 BB car that Andre brought with the radical cam. That was pretty interesting. He got that car running better then it ever had been according to Andre. If any of our forum bretheren have the opportunity to sponsor one of the tuning sessions, you will not be disappointed.

Tony

Dad's '66

Not sure what I can add beyond the posts above, other than to say that I had a great time, and it was a pleasure to meet all those that attended.

Lars does a GREAT job of explaining how the systems work, and explaining why he sets them up like he does. It was especially helpful to see the process, with Lars taking the time to explain the parts and pieces of the distributors and carburators, noting how they interact, and pointing out what can happen when they are not installed, or set correctly. None of what we did over the course of the two days would be considered major work. All of the adjustments and changes were relatively small, but each added to the other and as each car came back from a test drive, the owner was grinning from ear to ear.

On my Dad's car, '66 427/425, it now idles better, is not running so rich, has better throttle response and is running cooler. The secondaries open sooner, and you can really feel it. Also, now when I turn off the key is shuts off, and does not try to run-on. All plusses in my book.

As a side note, I went through the garbage can and found most all of the dried out grease that Lars scraped out of the distributor and have it on Ebay as original big block distributor grease! If you are interested, let me know, as I also have in impressive collection of stiff mechanical advance springs and a slew of Holley vacuum secondary springs that I will throw in as an added bonus.

Again, I had a great time, learned a bunch, and met some great people that I would like to keep in-touch with, and have a car that is running much better.

To Lars,

Thank you for coming up to see us, help us with our cars, and more importantly, teach us about our cars.

Thank you also for the short drive we had with you driving my Dad's car. I have not had a ride like that for quite some time, and when I did, my Dad was driving. It brought back a good memory, and is one that will stick with me, so thank you.

Now, I do have to admit that when we went through 1st, 2nd and 3rd gears with major tire spin, the motor zinging, the side pipes screaming, and you grabbing gears like you were driving a Pro Stock car, I was not having serene thoughts about riding with my Dad. I was mostly having thoughts about survival, wonding if I was breathing, and concern that my clenched butt cheeks might be hurting the leather seats. But then as we pulled into the driveway, I remembered that is how I felt on some of the rides with my Dad, and that was cool.

Scott

MasterDave

I had fun also, at least I got to meet you folks (and Lars). I did enjoy messin' with the King. Couldn't get back for tunin' late Saturday but I did get the exhaust hooked up so it wasn't a complete loss....good fun, thanks.

Dad's '66

Dave,

You should have stuck around on Friday and had Lars look at your car. Open headers in the shop is no big deal. We have fired up the alcohol car a number of times. Of course, we did have to take all of the trophies off of the shelves as they started rattling to edge and falling off.

Scott

427-390

Dave,

It was nice meeting you on Saturday too. Like Scott said, you should have returned. At the end of the day, we had a real throaty BB '69 roll in. After awhile your ears get adjusted (deaf?) to the noise.

Tony

SPLITRAY

I just cut and pasted my two cents in this thread from Saturday evening. BUT I wish I'd stuck around for the alcohol car...I thought everyone was done for the evening!

WOW...Just when you thought you knew something about distributors, along comes Lars. Saturday was a long session from 9:00 am til just after 7:00 pm, but it was time well spent. I think there was something wrong with every distributor and every carb at the session.

I will let Lars do his usual post on the vital statistics of what took place, but suffice to say it didn't appear that most of the cars needed tuning from they way they sounded when they drove in. But you could sure tell the difference when Lars was done. I've been playing with engines on and off for some time and I've never seen anything like it.

I have an automotive degree from about 30+ years ago from a community college, and I need to go and ask for my money back. The stuff we learned tonite should have been standard practice in college but was never brought up. I picked up more this evening than in a full quarter at college.

Thank you for the opportunity Lars, I really regret not having my 63' there now.

AndreG

Wow, what an excellent day, Lars Rocks!

Impossible to keep short so I won’t even try. Great bunch of friendly guys who all had a lot of pride, heart and passion in their vettes. All took great deal of interest and showed a lot of enthusiasm in learning about their cars and how to do things right. Nobody left anything but ecstatic about the experience and the way their cars were then performing. Lars, as I’m sure he always does, radically exceeded everybody’s highest possible expectations as to what they could learn and get out of the day. Only regret is that we did not have more of Lars’ time in Seattle to actually show him and his lady friend around. We were treated to a rare NW sunny Fall day which made it all that much more picture perfect.

Naturally I was the token misfit of the group who showed up on Saturday as I found out about the tuning session at the very last moment. As such I did not show up expecting any opportunity whatsoever to have Lars take a look at my 69 given the number of cars already scheduled. Every car that came through followed the same methodology of fixing the distributors and timing curves then tearing into the carbs and getting everything configured correctly with the correct jets, un-sticking/replacing power valves, correcting floats, transition circuits adjustments, correct vacuum cans determined and installed which together made all the difference in the world. Putting the cars back together and the last fine tuning detail, hopefully I can say this without sounding ridiculous, was truly a “Zen” like experience. My wife would have to think I lost my mind but picture all the guys huddled around each car, feeling the vibrations from the engine, hearing, touching, smelling and connecting with it with on the different subtle adjustments made and discussing whether it “liked it” or not. It was truly a thrilling sensory experience. It probably sounds completely crazy but it was fantastic and you would probably just have to have been there to actually understand. Each car liked slightly different things and after a few cars you could just dial into it and tell. Already understanding the theories but lacking in the practical experience of doing it correctly I really learned a lot from seeing all the cars done in succession. Although all were similar they responded just a little differently in the end with their needs which is where all the difference was made making it all seem more like art than science. Every car present (with exception my own) was very complete and looked absolutely fantastic, a couple of which appeared showroom perfect. Every car present however left with drastic improvements made to the overall sound, drivability and pleasure of the cars. The end of the day each car ran the way they looked which is an amazing thing. I’m not someone who typically goes to car shows and meets, I just tinker with and drive my 69 as weather permits but found myself really having a great time checking out all the different years. For the first time I was able to look at a collection of them together and really develop an appreciation for the different generations from the really classic elegance of the late 50’s and early 60’s cars to the smoother curvaceous lines of the C3’s.

At the end of the evening it was getting dark and time was running short. All the same, Lars let me pull in my 69 which was in sharp contrast to the rest of the cars in that all the others were smooth refined primarily stock vehicles. My raggedy sounding project 69 498 BB with a monster cam with so little vacuum it requires a purely mechanical curve. Lars had the distributor out (MSD Pro-Billet) lickety split and went to work on the curve which had to be shortened up considerably. I had a couple different very reputable shops go through it for the configuration of the car but both shops missed what it needed. Thanks to Scott who had a bunch of old bushings and pieces lying around and several folks smarter than myself, we calculated what size the custom bushings needed to be for the MSD. Lars then attacked the pieces with the grinding wheel and in moments had it all put it all back together. Timing ended up being exactly what we were shooting for and I had a thrilling drive home. Throttle response and lower end torque is vastly improved. Driving the car before in traffic was frankly a tedious and tiring experience after a while and I thought I had gone way overboard with the cam. Now that she is all dialed in the car feels razor sharp in it’s responsiveness and I feel like an urban terrorist sitting behind the wheel. At a moments notice in any gear the car will just launch with no hesitation, stumble and is far more predictable and as the power comes on it just becomes downright scary. It starts better and is amazingly smooth despite the choppy idle I love which still sets off all the car alarms in my work parking garage and scaring small animals, children and the aged.

Big Kudos to the Scotts and Mark for graciously accommodating us all and a very BIG BIG thanks to Lars who stuck it out later than I’m sure he liked. For the money this was by far and away the best thing I have ever done with the car not to sell short the great time and superior learning experience. I hope all of us who could make it continue to stay in touch. It would be a terrible shame not to.

Cheers and thanks again to all. It was an excellent time and I sincerely enjoyed meeting everyone of you!

-Andre (red 69 vert)

SPLITRAY

...Do you still need or use that timing **** by the ashtray? Do you leave it neutral or advance it or what?

AndreG

I installed it out of sheer frustration when attempting to diagnose some problems I was experiencing with this latest engine. I could not get it to run well at low RPM's without bringing on detonation problems at the top. I had a fuel pump problem and then a lean condition problem which made it tough for me to figure out just what the %%^%$ was going on. Was one of those situations where everything is off and you just need to get something right to base everything else off of, you then replace parts and end up with a different set of faulty new parts. 2 bad new Edelbrock pumps, wrong regulator (for electric pump) then a correct but faulty replacement, bent sticky floats in the new carb etc etc. Bare in mind this is all mostly prior to my having discovered the forum and wealth of knowledge available. I now know (Thank you Lars) that you get the timing done first then everything else comes after!

In retrospect the device is pretty useless thing. Once the car is setup correctly it is no longer needed and is simply something else to fail and the opportunity always exists for someone to fiddle with it. All that being said, because of it I did know that it required out a lot more initial advance with a shorter curve. Jim Greens then later Carb Connection set up the distributor for me and both times did do incorrectly. I just didn't know how much I should try and get way with or if in fact I needed to leave as is and simply install a vacuum can to increase the initial. Now that the curve is very short with initial at 24 and max at 35 the **** can and should just be taken out. Before I do so however I will fill it up at the track with some race fuel and see if I can advance it beyond 35 without any detonation purely to satisfy my own curiosity as I am skirting the edge with Premium fuel with the 10.75 compression.

You can have it when I am done although I honestly wouldn’t recommend its use ;-) It would be neat to have a real timing computer where you could dynamically change the curves, initial and max as well as vacuum settings for different driving conditions but this thing is just too primitive. Probably good for a boat I suppose where you only run flat out but not much else.

Cheers
-Andre

6T5C2

How do we get Lars to come to the east coast for tuning class?? I would love to be a part of this.

Joel 67

Same for Chicago . . . Lars, we'd love to have you

bweaver999

Sounds like we need someone to tape a few Lars sessions. I'd go $20 for a copy.