427 Mystery Motor History
12-08-2006, 10:26 AM
#21
Le Mans Master
Originally Posted by KyleDallas
Each head is 25 lbs lighter than it's Big Block Mark IV
brother.
brother.
12-08-2006, 11:12 AM
#23
Drifting
Thread Starter
Looks can be decieving Knight ...both the block and heads are lighter
than the Mark IV...... the article states that the heads are about 1/2 inch shorter than BBC heads in both height and length... the article claims the block weighs only 49 pounds more than a 327 Fuelie short block..(sorry, no hard numbers were given)
Two of the sources for the story were Hayden Profitt... who was a
factory backed Impala Drag Racer in 62 and 63...... and Larry Ofria of
Valley Head service..... Larry knew Smokey Yunick personally and did
contract head work for Smokey..... Larry did the flow test I provided
in my previous post... and it seems only logical if he had them on the
flowbench that it wouldn't be any problem to walk a few steps and put them on a scale. There are many pictures of the 427 Mystery Motor in
the article in different stages of assembly.... bare block, short block,
bare heads, complete...what I'm alluding to is that this is not a
book research article.... the block, heads, and components were specifically photographed and belong to a fellow named Roger Sortino..
who is going to be campaigning a 1963 Biscayne with aluminum
fenders and Mystery Motor 427 power..... the tuning will be done
by Hayden Proffitt and the car will supposedly be at select Chevy
events.
than the Mark IV...... the article states that the heads are about 1/2 inch shorter than BBC heads in both height and length... the article claims the block weighs only 49 pounds more than a 327 Fuelie short block..(sorry, no hard numbers were given)
Two of the sources for the story were Hayden Profitt... who was a
factory backed Impala Drag Racer in 62 and 63...... and Larry Ofria of
Valley Head service..... Larry knew Smokey Yunick personally and did
contract head work for Smokey..... Larry did the flow test I provided
in my previous post... and it seems only logical if he had them on the
flowbench that it wouldn't be any problem to walk a few steps and put them on a scale. There are many pictures of the 427 Mystery Motor in
the article in different stages of assembly.... bare block, short block,
bare heads, complete...what I'm alluding to is that this is not a
book research article.... the block, heads, and components were specifically photographed and belong to a fellow named Roger Sortino..
who is going to be campaigning a 1963 Biscayne with aluminum
fenders and Mystery Motor 427 power..... the tuning will be done
by Hayden Proffitt and the car will supposedly be at select Chevy
events.
12-08-2006, 03:06 PM
#25
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[QUOTE=KyleDallas]
-------------------------------------The stroke was 3.65 inches and the rocker ratio was 1.75:1.-----------------------
[QUOTE]
The Z11 427 and the 427 Mystery engine had the same bore/stroke.
[QUOTE=KyleDallas]
------------------------------It is believed by Mystery Motor experts that 18 engines were produced by GM.-----------------------------
[QUOTE]
Exactly how many Mystery engines were actually assembled and provided to "selected" racers/teams is still debated/unknown. BUT, Smokey stated that he clearly remembers 42 engines. Also, there is credible evidence that there was a small inventory of spare parts. How can that be? Well, some of the racers have stated that when they needed a part(s) to replace failed parts, they were furnished until the supply ran out, and then that was all there was. So, apparently some racers were able to keep the Mystery engines alive until they could no longer get parts.
Regardless of the above, if a person takes a close look at the racers/teams that were furnished Mystery engines, plus the ones that Smokey sold at auction, plus the 2 provided to Ford and the ones that still are in the hands of collectors, it is highly probable that MORE than 18 engines were manufactured/assembled. How many? I will never guess at that one!
-------------------------------------The stroke was 3.65 inches and the rocker ratio was 1.75:1.-----------------------
[QUOTE]
The Z11 427 and the 427 Mystery engine had the same bore/stroke.
[QUOTE=KyleDallas]
------------------------------It is believed by Mystery Motor experts that 18 engines were produced by GM.-----------------------------
[QUOTE]
Exactly how many Mystery engines were actually assembled and provided to "selected" racers/teams is still debated/unknown. BUT, Smokey stated that he clearly remembers 42 engines. Also, there is credible evidence that there was a small inventory of spare parts. How can that be? Well, some of the racers have stated that when they needed a part(s) to replace failed parts, they were furnished until the supply ran out, and then that was all there was. So, apparently some racers were able to keep the Mystery engines alive until they could no longer get parts.
Regardless of the above, if a person takes a close look at the racers/teams that were furnished Mystery engines, plus the ones that Smokey sold at auction, plus the 2 provided to Ford and the ones that still are in the hands of collectors, it is highly probable that MORE than 18 engines were manufactured/assembled. How many? I will never guess at that one!
12-08-2006, 03:28 PM
#26
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For me, the bottom line fact to this whole bit of Chevy history (and it's QUITE difficult, and sometimes impossible, to convince many people), is that not only did Chevy produce a 427 engine in 1963, BUT THEY BUILT 2 ENTIRELY DIFFERENT 427 ENGINES IN 1963. Then, when you try to explain that the Z11 and the "Mystery" engines were NOT the same, its like beating your head against a brick wall!!!!!!!!!!
OK, so why the heck does it matter, anyway??????
Why does ANYTHING historical matter???????
Who the heck cares???????????
Because if the facts are not correct or are ignored on one issue, then that "care less" attitude also gets carried over to other issues and before you know it, everything becomes, or could become inaccurate. Then eventually, people (who have been misinformed) go around saying "oh this and that is true, because Joe Blow told me so and he is an "expert"! OR, "I read so and so in Super-Duper Auto Mechanics magazine and it has to be the gospel truth because they are the premier magazine in their field of journalism"!
Sooooooooooooooo, where in the world do you go to get the absolute correct information about this stuff? You gotta go find the guys who were there, who designed it, who built it, who raced it and still have it available for others to see. But, many of those guys are gone, or their memories have faded. Also, get the drawings/documentation out of the archives, if you can access it.
OK, so why the heck does it matter, anyway??????
Why does ANYTHING historical matter???????
Who the heck cares???????????
Because if the facts are not correct or are ignored on one issue, then that "care less" attitude also gets carried over to other issues and before you know it, everything becomes, or could become inaccurate. Then eventually, people (who have been misinformed) go around saying "oh this and that is true, because Joe Blow told me so and he is an "expert"! OR, "I read so and so in Super-Duper Auto Mechanics magazine and it has to be the gospel truth because they are the premier magazine in their field of journalism"!
Sooooooooooooooo, where in the world do you go to get the absolute correct information about this stuff? You gotta go find the guys who were there, who designed it, who built it, who raced it and still have it available for others to see. But, many of those guys are gone, or their memories have faded. Also, get the drawings/documentation out of the archives, if you can access it.
12-08-2006, 10:45 PM
#27
I would find it most interesting as to how many 427 engines from 1963 survived, be it Z-11 or the mystery motor and where or how are they presenting themselves today. A couple are mentioned in this thread, how many more of each are out there?
12-08-2006, 10:54 PM
#28
Melting Slicks
The individual that did all the dyno work for Smokey currently works for Crane cams in Florida. I think his last name was Johnson. I had reason to talk to them about a 66 Buick sleeper that they did some work on back in the day(Their records only go back to 70). You think its hard tracing secret vette stuff, try Buick. Friend has one of 14 1966 401 ci cheater cars done out the back door for Buick by some guy (Ollie Olson)in Florida who is now dead.
Tyler
Tyler
12-09-2006, 01:49 PM
#29
Drifting
Thread Starter
Tom... It seemed to me that 18 was a low number.... I merely reitterated what was said in the article.... I would need to look and see how many
races NASCAR ran that year.... and how many people Besides Junior and Smokey were running the engines.... but doesn't that sound like a low number if you were going to supply 2 teams through a season???
The 18 number sounds suspect when you consider qualifying, testing, racing, and dyno mule engines... and we haven't even touched the drag racing teams who ran the Mystery Engine.... or the Road Racing teams
or those used by GM Engineering.
I wonder if it was 18 individuals or teams that got the engine??
If you get a chance... could you list the source on the Smokey/42 engine statement?? Smokey helped develop the Mystery Motor... so if it comes
down to an end user (racer's) word against one of the developers... I'm
going with the developer.
races NASCAR ran that year.... and how many people Besides Junior and Smokey were running the engines.... but doesn't that sound like a low number if you were going to supply 2 teams through a season???
The 18 number sounds suspect when you consider qualifying, testing, racing, and dyno mule engines... and we haven't even touched the drag racing teams who ran the Mystery Engine.... or the Road Racing teams
or those used by GM Engineering.
I wonder if it was 18 individuals or teams that got the engine??
If you get a chance... could you list the source on the Smokey/42 engine statement?? Smokey helped develop the Mystery Motor... so if it comes
down to an end user (racer's) word against one of the developers... I'm
going with the developer.
10-17-2012, 04:03 AM
#30
2nd Gear
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The first ever production big block V8 Chevrolet engine was the "W" series, released in 1958 for passenger car and truck use. This engine was an Overhead valve design, with offset valves and unique scalloped rocker covers, giving it a distinctive appearance. The "W" series was produced from 1958 to 1965, with three displacements offered: 348 cubic inches (5.7 L), available from 1958 to 1961 in cars and through 1964 in trucks; 409 cubic inches (6.7 L), available from 1961 to 1965; and 427 cubic inches (7.0 L), available only in 1963.
As was the norm at the time, the "W" engine was of cast iron construction. The block had 4.84-inch (123 mm) bore centers, two-bolt main bearing caps, a "side oiling" lubrication system (main oil gallery located low on the driver's side of the crankcase) with full flow oil filter, and interchangeable cylinder heads. Heads used on the high performance 409 and 427 engines had larger ports and valves than those used on the 348 and the base 409 passenger car and truck engines, but externally were identical to the standard units. One minor difference between the 348 and 409/427 was the location of the engine oil dipstick: it was on the driver's side on the former and passenger's side on the latter. No satisfactory explanation was ever offered for why this change was made. However, it did provide a fairly reliable way to differentiate between the smaller and larger versions of the engine.
As with the 265 and 283 cubic inch small block engines, the "W" engine valve gear consisted of tubular steel push rods operating stud-mounted, stamped steel rocker arms. The push rods also acted as a conduit for oil flow to the valve gear. Due to the relatively low mass of the valve train, mechanical lifter versions of the "W" engine were capable of operating at speeds well beyond 6000 RPM.
thanks
dainik bhasker
As was the norm at the time, the "W" engine was of cast iron construction. The block had 4.84-inch (123 mm) bore centers, two-bolt main bearing caps, a "side oiling" lubrication system (main oil gallery located low on the driver's side of the crankcase) with full flow oil filter, and interchangeable cylinder heads. Heads used on the high performance 409 and 427 engines had larger ports and valves than those used on the 348 and the base 409 passenger car and truck engines, but externally were identical to the standard units. One minor difference between the 348 and 409/427 was the location of the engine oil dipstick: it was on the driver's side on the former and passenger's side on the latter. No satisfactory explanation was ever offered for why this change was made. However, it did provide a fairly reliable way to differentiate between the smaller and larger versions of the engine.
As with the 265 and 283 cubic inch small block engines, the "W" engine valve gear consisted of tubular steel push rods operating stud-mounted, stamped steel rocker arms. The push rods also acted as a conduit for oil flow to the valve gear. Due to the relatively low mass of the valve train, mechanical lifter versions of the "W" engine were capable of operating at speeds well beyond 6000 RPM.
thanks
dainik bhasker
10-17-2012, 11:18 AM
#34
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Very interesting thread. I didn't know it existed and enjoyed reading it all the way through. Ancient or not, it's timeless.
Jim
Jim
10-17-2012, 01:23 PM
#35
Race Director
The individual that did all the dyno work for Smokey currently works for Crane cams in Florida. I think his last name was Johnson. I had reason to talk to them about a 66 Buick sleeper that they did some work on back in the day(Their records only go back to 70). You think its hard tracing secret vette stuff, try Buick. Friend has one of 14 1966 401 ci cheater cars done out the back door for Buick by some guy (Ollie Olson)in Florida who is now dead.
Tyler
Tyler
10-17-2012, 01:25 PM
#37
The first ever production big block V8 Chevrolet engine was the "W" series, released in 1958 for passenger car and truck use. This engine was an Overhead valve design, with offset valves and unique scalloped rocker covers, giving it a distinctive appearance. The "W" series was produced from 1958 to 1965, with three displacements offered: 348 cubic inches (5.7 L), available from 1958 to 1961 in cars and through 1964 in trucks; 409 cubic inches (6.7 L), available from 1961 to 1965; and 427 cubic inches (7.0 L), available only in 1963.
As was the norm at the time, the "W" engine was of cast iron construction. The block had 4.84-inch (123 mm) bore centers, two-bolt main bearing caps, a "side oiling" lubrication system (main oil gallery located low on the driver's side of the crankcase) with full flow oil filter, and interchangeable cylinder heads. Heads used on the high performance 409 and 427 engines had larger ports and valves than those used on the 348 and the base 409 passenger car and truck engines, but externally were identical to the standard units. One minor difference between the 348 and 409/427 was the location of the engine oil dipstick: it was on the driver's side on the former and passenger's side on the latter. No satisfactory explanation was ever offered for why this change was made. However, it did provide a fairly reliable way to differentiate between the smaller and larger versions of the engine.
As with the 265 and 283 cubic inch small block engines, the "W" engine valve gear consisted of tubular steel push rods operating stud-mounted, stamped steel rocker arms. The push rods also acted as a conduit for oil flow to the valve gear. Due to the relatively low mass of the valve train, mechanical lifter versions of the "W" engine were capable of operating at speeds well beyond 6000 RPM.
thanks
dainik bhasker
As was the norm at the time, the "W" engine was of cast iron construction. The block had 4.84-inch (123 mm) bore centers, two-bolt main bearing caps, a "side oiling" lubrication system (main oil gallery located low on the driver's side of the crankcase) with full flow oil filter, and interchangeable cylinder heads. Heads used on the high performance 409 and 427 engines had larger ports and valves than those used on the 348 and the base 409 passenger car and truck engines, but externally were identical to the standard units. One minor difference between the 348 and 409/427 was the location of the engine oil dipstick: it was on the driver's side on the former and passenger's side on the latter. No satisfactory explanation was ever offered for why this change was made. However, it did provide a fairly reliable way to differentiate between the smaller and larger versions of the engine.
As with the 265 and 283 cubic inch small block engines, the "W" engine valve gear consisted of tubular steel push rods operating stud-mounted, stamped steel rocker arms. The push rods also acted as a conduit for oil flow to the valve gear. Due to the relatively low mass of the valve train, mechanical lifter versions of the "W" engine were capable of operating at speeds well beyond 6000 RPM.
thanks
dainik bhasker
The dipstick was on the drivers side on 348 CAR engines, but was on the passenger side on 348 TRUCK engines since the 348 truck engine used the same pan as the 409 truck engine.
10-17-2012, 03:43 PM
#38
Burning Brakes
Does anybody know what happened to KyleDallas? When he first joined he was very active and seemed to have a deep interest in Chevy racing engine history, then he disappeared almost overnight. Did anyone ever talk to him or know why he left?
10-17-2012, 04:51 PM
#39
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This was a thread I missed and am glad to see it back. The picture above is a Corvette. Another note, around Washington D.C. we had Malcolm Durham running a '63 Impala with the Mystery Motor 427. The car was called The Strip Blazer. It did just that. 
Dennis
Dennis
10-17-2012, 05:43 PM
#40
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