427 Mystery Motor History
10-20-2012, 11:50 AM
#62
Team Owner
Member Since: Mar 2003
Location: Greenville, Indiana
Posts: 26,118
Received 1,843 Likes
on
1,398 Posts
I'm also happy to see this thread resurrected. Mike, regarding your statements above, there is no record of any "package" of Z-11 type parts offered through service parts for racers to upgrade their 409s. It is known that individual parts were made available to some racers late in '62. Verne
Glad to see you drop in on this thread as you are an expert on this subject.
Maybe I mis-spoke a little about the "Z-11 package"! Nevertheless, the individual parts were available in late '62 and showed up at the '62 NHRA Nationals at Indy. All the faster cars there had these special parts. At the time, I had no idea these parts had been released for the '62 models and didn't find out until several years later why these '62cars were so much faster later in the year than when first released.
The one car that I have seen up close and personal is one formerly owned by Page Campbell. I understand all the alumnum parts on the car were removed from a former Sox/Martin car.
It's also my understanding The factory built some complete cars as Impalas (not Bel Air) and there was some unique feature about these cars on the firewall. Maybe the body tag or something else located other than standard production? Know anything about this?
10-20-2012, 12:18 PM
#63
Safety Car
MICKEY THOMPSON 63 Z0-6 with 427 Mystery Motor
THE MICKEY THOMPSON CORVETTE
The Mickey Thompson Corvette is one of six 1963 Z-06 stingray’s built late in 1962 to race at Riverside in October 1962. This car, and one like it, never saw Riverside. They were destined to compete in a different sort of race for sports cars, a NASCAR sanctioned event on the famous Daytona Oval. This meant the cars needed to be prepared to a different set of rules, the same as those for the big Grand National stock cars. The chassis was modified extensively and an experimental 427 engine installed. The car was lightened in every way possible and weighed just over 2800 pounds. Extra fuel was carried in a specially fabricated 50 gallon tank occupying the area behind the driver. Driven by Junior Johnson, this special car was the fastest qualifier at over 162 mph. Plagued by rain in the race, substitute driver Billy Krause finished third behind Paul Goldsmith’s Pontiac and A.J. Foyt in another Corvette.
Special features of the Mickey Thompson NASCAR Corvette include:
* Special 427 engine * Adjustable front sway bar
* Three speed transmission * Adjustable rear suspension
* Magnesium differential * Flat aluminum floors
* Two shocks per wheel * Special exhaust system
* Special axles * Lightweight fiberglass seats
* 4 wheel disc brakes * 50 gallon gas tank
* Engine oil cooler * Plexiglas windows
* Differential oil cooler * Full roll cage
* Fully welded frame * Aluminum instrument panel
After Daytona, the Mickey Thompson Corvette was returned to California where the 427 engine was removed and the car sold to a Southern California road racer. A 327 Engine was installed and the car was driven again by Billy Krause in the Los Angeles Times Grand Prix at RIVERSIDE in October of 1963.
In 1976, Tom McIntyre purchased the car and began the slow process of figuring out exactly what it was. Years later, Chevrolet engineers divulged that the car was originally powered by an experimental 427 Mk II “Mystery Motor”. Thanks to Smokey Yunick, the Mickey Thompson Corvette and its special engine have been reunited.
The car has been raced across the country in historic events since 1983.
THE CORVETTE AND PAUL GOLDSMITH 421 TEMPEST
IN THE RAIN WITH BILLY KRAUSE DRIVER. AS STATED EARLIER, JUNIOR JOHNSON WAS THE ORIGINAL DRIVER WHO QUALIFIED THE CAR ON THE POLE A WEEK EARLIER AT 162 MPH. ON RACE DAY, THERE WAS A LIGHT DRIZZLE DURING PRACTICE. THE CAR HAD RECEIVED PLEXIGLASS WINDOWS, AND ALUMINUM FLOORING PANELS FOR EXTRA STRENGTH. THE HOT EXHAUST UNDER THE FLOOR, CREATED STEAM IN THE COCKPIT THAT ''FOGGED'' THE INSIDE WINDOWS SO BAD THAT JUNIOR BROUGHT THE CAR IN AND SAID.....NOT TODAY ! BILLY KRAUSE, WHO WAS DRIVING THE REGULAR Z0-6 FUEL INJECTED CAR IN THE 3 HOUR ENDURO WAS ASKED IF HE WOULD DRIVE THE CAR. ''CRAZY BILL'' SAID YES, AND BY THE TIME THE RACE STARTED THE WEATHER IMPROVED ENOUGH TO WHERE HE FINISHED 3RD. BILL TOLD ME IN 2005 THAT IT WAS ONE OF THE SCARIEST RIDES OF HIS CAREER. PLENTY OF POWER.....BUT NO CONTROL
AT RACE END, ALL CARS WENT BACK TO TECH WITH THEIR FUEL CANS FOR FIA INSPECTION
TOM MCINTYRE WROTE THIS SOME TIME AGO
1963 Z-06 Purchase and Restoration
By Tom McIntyre
I had been involved in racing a 1966 A C Cobra in historic events since 1973. The Cobra was classified to run with FIA and Can-Am racing cars because of its 427 engine size. This was OK until the big bore McLaren M-8 cars started entering the class. These big cars were difficult to race with because they created air turbulence when they went by. This disturbance would cause the lightweight Cobra to move nearly a car width across the track. It was not really controllable and caused lots of concern about safety.
In 1976, I was approached by Andy Porterfield who was racing a 1968 Corvette in the SCCA B-Production class. Andy had an old Stingray in his shop that he had used to train co-drivers for the special 6-hour races at Riverside Raceway. He had borrowed the car from a man named Norm Burger from Sherman Oaks. Apparently Norm was interested in selling the car and asked Andy to accomplish this for him. Andy had lots of opportunity to market and sell the car as he was still quite active in the racing community. Since the car was now thirteen years old, it wasn’t of much value as a current racing car, but might be fun on the historic circuit. I had known Andy from his SCCA racing, and since I was his only friend in the historic circle, he considered me first as the buyer of this old car.
My roots were firmly embedded in the Ford product line and I had little interest in the Chevrolet Corvette, so I refused the car at first. Almost a year later, I was literally forced by Andy to take this car out of his shop and take it home. What would I do with this beat up old car? I still had little interest, so I felt better sharing it with my good friend Duane Bowers. We each paid Andy for half the car, a very reasonable price even in 1980. We towed the ratty old orange Corvette to Duane’s house where it sat in a carport for over a year. On weekends I would go to Duane’s and take bits and pieces off the car to clean and paint and prepare to fix it up. The condition was so poor that my half-hearted attempts to restore the car were in vain. I gave up and left it to sit. Awhile later, Duane decided to move to a new home, so my storage place was sold and the car needed to move also.
Duane wanted some cash to help buy the new house, so I agreed to buy his half of the car and hauled it to my warehouse in Burbank. It sat again for at least another year before I had had enough of the Can-Am pounding, and wanted to race in the more docile B/Production group. Andy’s Stingray would fit perfectly in that class and would probably be a lot of fun to drive. I contacted a friend, Phil Schmidt, who could help me restore the car. He was interested in the project and started the long process of making the car fresh and new again. He stripped and cleaned and painted and plated and got the car almost finished before something came up and he had to quit before the project was finished. Another friend, Jim Wallace was starting to restore old racing cars and agreed to finish the job Phil had started.
During the rework of some of the major components, it was curious that the fuel tank and the differential were very unusual and seemed quite unique for a local B/P racer. The car had twelve layers of paint on it that hid the secret identity of a very famous Z-06 factory racer.
I had been told the car might have belonged to Mickey Thompson, but never had enough evidence to support that claim.
Wallace did most of the mechanical work to get the chassis race ready. He did the fuel system and wiring and plumbing. He rebuilt the brakes and made the car ready to receive the engine being built by my Cobra friend Dave Dralle. Dave would take the project to completion and do all the final service to make the little car race ready. In May of 1983, the car would take to the Willow Springs Race Track for its maiden voyage. After the first test, most of the bugs were worked out and the car was ready to enter its first race. The 1983 Monterey Historic races would be the first real contest for the shiny blue racer.
On the race entry form, I mentioned the car might have been an ex-Mickey Thompson racer, and the event program reflected that. I hadn’t found the chassis number, so that area was left blank. Some of the other Corvette racers took an interest in my new car and asked if they could try to find a serial number in one of several hidden locations. This might require them to unbolt some important things (like the body) and they wondered if I would mind if they did this. The next morning three guys showed up in white coveralls and began taking pieces off the car to try to locate serial numbers. I would later hear a rumor that Norm Burger borrowed money against the car and the Bank took the chassis tags off so it couldn’t be sold until the money was repaid. The tags never made it back on the car and have never been located. Maybe the Bank is still waiting to be repaid the money they loaned and still hold the tags offered as collateral.
Later that day, the three men would finally locate the chassis number right under a place where the roll cage had been welded. Roll cage? Why would there be a sophisticated roll cage in a local B/P racer? The answer was in the newly discovered chassis number. My new Stingray had been missing for years. It was the third racing Z-06 built. It was one of six lightweight specials built by Zora Duntov to combat the new A C Cobra racers at Riverside in late 1962.
This special Car never made it to Riverside, however. It was destined to race an even more important race with an important driver. It would be disguised as a NASCAR racer, fitted with a 427 Chevrolet MkII, “Mystery Motor” and it would sit on the pole at Daytona USA with the famed Junior Johnson driving. The car was actually built by a trio of pretty famous racers, Mickey Thompson, Smokey Yunick, and Junior Johnson. Each of them Champions in various forms of motor racing.
After a third place finish in the Daytona race, the motor was pulled and the chassis returned to Southern California. Mickey’s job was done, so the car was sold to the aforementioned Norm Burger. Norm fitted a 327 Chevy back into the racing chassis and turned it loose with some heavy sports car racers driving. It traded back and forth between Doug Hooper and Billy Krause. The only victory of record was at Dodger Stadium, with Hooper, in 1963.
Its hard to say who all drove the little car. When it was bought it had the name Sal Tomasello over the door. We don’t know who else was involved, but one thing we do know is that the car was always owned by Norm Burger. It was Norm to whom we made our checks payable, even though we had never met the man.
Since that time, the car has been returned to its racing silver color and original number, as it raced in the NASCAR race. It has been invited to show at Bloomington, Illinois and at the Corvette Museum in Bowling Green, Kentucky. The car has also been to Carlisle, Pennsylvania for a celebration of Corvette racing history. It is believed this is one of the most significant Stingrays ever built.
With the Wild West Racers, the car has performed at nearly every important racing track in the United States. The majority of its current Historic racing was accomplished from 1983 to 1993. It currently resides in Burbank, California.
THE CAR TODAY. THESE PHOTOS WERE TAKEN AT CORVETTES AT CARLISLE RACE CAR REUNION 2004.
NOTE THE ''ORIGINAL FRONT SWAY BAR''
IN 2008, THE CAR WAS DISPLAYED WITH THE ENGINE ''ORIGINAL 427 MARK I ''MYSTERY ENGINE'' THAT TOM HAD PURCHASED AT A SMOKEY PARTS AUCTION IN THE MID 80'S.......THAT'S ANOTHER GREAT STORY.
INTERIOR
The Mickey Thompson Corvette is one of six 1963 Z-06 stingray’s built late in 1962 to race at Riverside in October 1962. This car, and one like it, never saw Riverside. They were destined to compete in a different sort of race for sports cars, a NASCAR sanctioned event on the famous Daytona Oval. This meant the cars needed to be prepared to a different set of rules, the same as those for the big Grand National stock cars. The chassis was modified extensively and an experimental 427 engine installed. The car was lightened in every way possible and weighed just over 2800 pounds. Extra fuel was carried in a specially fabricated 50 gallon tank occupying the area behind the driver. Driven by Junior Johnson, this special car was the fastest qualifier at over 162 mph. Plagued by rain in the race, substitute driver Billy Krause finished third behind Paul Goldsmith’s Pontiac and A.J. Foyt in another Corvette.
Special features of the Mickey Thompson NASCAR Corvette include:
* Special 427 engine * Adjustable front sway bar
* Three speed transmission * Adjustable rear suspension
* Magnesium differential * Flat aluminum floors
* Two shocks per wheel * Special exhaust system
* Special axles * Lightweight fiberglass seats
* 4 wheel disc brakes * 50 gallon gas tank
* Engine oil cooler * Plexiglas windows
* Differential oil cooler * Full roll cage
* Fully welded frame * Aluminum instrument panel
After Daytona, the Mickey Thompson Corvette was returned to California where the 427 engine was removed and the car sold to a Southern California road racer. A 327 Engine was installed and the car was driven again by Billy Krause in the Los Angeles Times Grand Prix at RIVERSIDE in October of 1963.
In 1976, Tom McIntyre purchased the car and began the slow process of figuring out exactly what it was. Years later, Chevrolet engineers divulged that the car was originally powered by an experimental 427 Mk II “Mystery Motor”. Thanks to Smokey Yunick, the Mickey Thompson Corvette and its special engine have been reunited.
The car has been raced across the country in historic events since 1983.
THE CORVETTE AND PAUL GOLDSMITH 421 TEMPEST
IN THE RAIN WITH BILLY KRAUSE DRIVER. AS STATED EARLIER, JUNIOR JOHNSON WAS THE ORIGINAL DRIVER WHO QUALIFIED THE CAR ON THE POLE A WEEK EARLIER AT 162 MPH. ON RACE DAY, THERE WAS A LIGHT DRIZZLE DURING PRACTICE. THE CAR HAD RECEIVED PLEXIGLASS WINDOWS, AND ALUMINUM FLOORING PANELS FOR EXTRA STRENGTH. THE HOT EXHAUST UNDER THE FLOOR, CREATED STEAM IN THE COCKPIT THAT ''FOGGED'' THE INSIDE WINDOWS SO BAD THAT JUNIOR BROUGHT THE CAR IN AND SAID.....NOT TODAY ! BILLY KRAUSE, WHO WAS DRIVING THE REGULAR Z0-6 FUEL INJECTED CAR IN THE 3 HOUR ENDURO WAS ASKED IF HE WOULD DRIVE THE CAR. ''CRAZY BILL'' SAID YES, AND BY THE TIME THE RACE STARTED THE WEATHER IMPROVED ENOUGH TO WHERE HE FINISHED 3RD. BILL TOLD ME IN 2005 THAT IT WAS ONE OF THE SCARIEST RIDES OF HIS CAREER. PLENTY OF POWER.....BUT NO CONTROL
AT RACE END, ALL CARS WENT BACK TO TECH WITH THEIR FUEL CANS FOR FIA INSPECTION
TOM MCINTYRE WROTE THIS SOME TIME AGO
1963 Z-06 Purchase and Restoration
By Tom McIntyre
I had been involved in racing a 1966 A C Cobra in historic events since 1973. The Cobra was classified to run with FIA and Can-Am racing cars because of its 427 engine size. This was OK until the big bore McLaren M-8 cars started entering the class. These big cars were difficult to race with because they created air turbulence when they went by. This disturbance would cause the lightweight Cobra to move nearly a car width across the track. It was not really controllable and caused lots of concern about safety.
In 1976, I was approached by Andy Porterfield who was racing a 1968 Corvette in the SCCA B-Production class. Andy had an old Stingray in his shop that he had used to train co-drivers for the special 6-hour races at Riverside Raceway. He had borrowed the car from a man named Norm Burger from Sherman Oaks. Apparently Norm was interested in selling the car and asked Andy to accomplish this for him. Andy had lots of opportunity to market and sell the car as he was still quite active in the racing community. Since the car was now thirteen years old, it wasn’t of much value as a current racing car, but might be fun on the historic circuit. I had known Andy from his SCCA racing, and since I was his only friend in the historic circle, he considered me first as the buyer of this old car.
My roots were firmly embedded in the Ford product line and I had little interest in the Chevrolet Corvette, so I refused the car at first. Almost a year later, I was literally forced by Andy to take this car out of his shop and take it home. What would I do with this beat up old car? I still had little interest, so I felt better sharing it with my good friend Duane Bowers. We each paid Andy for half the car, a very reasonable price even in 1980. We towed the ratty old orange Corvette to Duane’s house where it sat in a carport for over a year. On weekends I would go to Duane’s and take bits and pieces off the car to clean and paint and prepare to fix it up. The condition was so poor that my half-hearted attempts to restore the car were in vain. I gave up and left it to sit. Awhile later, Duane decided to move to a new home, so my storage place was sold and the car needed to move also.
Duane wanted some cash to help buy the new house, so I agreed to buy his half of the car and hauled it to my warehouse in Burbank. It sat again for at least another year before I had had enough of the Can-Am pounding, and wanted to race in the more docile B/Production group. Andy’s Stingray would fit perfectly in that class and would probably be a lot of fun to drive. I contacted a friend, Phil Schmidt, who could help me restore the car. He was interested in the project and started the long process of making the car fresh and new again. He stripped and cleaned and painted and plated and got the car almost finished before something came up and he had to quit before the project was finished. Another friend, Jim Wallace was starting to restore old racing cars and agreed to finish the job Phil had started.
During the rework of some of the major components, it was curious that the fuel tank and the differential were very unusual and seemed quite unique for a local B/P racer. The car had twelve layers of paint on it that hid the secret identity of a very famous Z-06 factory racer.
I had been told the car might have belonged to Mickey Thompson, but never had enough evidence to support that claim.
Wallace did most of the mechanical work to get the chassis race ready. He did the fuel system and wiring and plumbing. He rebuilt the brakes and made the car ready to receive the engine being built by my Cobra friend Dave Dralle. Dave would take the project to completion and do all the final service to make the little car race ready. In May of 1983, the car would take to the Willow Springs Race Track for its maiden voyage. After the first test, most of the bugs were worked out and the car was ready to enter its first race. The 1983 Monterey Historic races would be the first real contest for the shiny blue racer.
On the race entry form, I mentioned the car might have been an ex-Mickey Thompson racer, and the event program reflected that. I hadn’t found the chassis number, so that area was left blank. Some of the other Corvette racers took an interest in my new car and asked if they could try to find a serial number in one of several hidden locations. This might require them to unbolt some important things (like the body) and they wondered if I would mind if they did this. The next morning three guys showed up in white coveralls and began taking pieces off the car to try to locate serial numbers. I would later hear a rumor that Norm Burger borrowed money against the car and the Bank took the chassis tags off so it couldn’t be sold until the money was repaid. The tags never made it back on the car and have never been located. Maybe the Bank is still waiting to be repaid the money they loaned and still hold the tags offered as collateral.
Later that day, the three men would finally locate the chassis number right under a place where the roll cage had been welded. Roll cage? Why would there be a sophisticated roll cage in a local B/P racer? The answer was in the newly discovered chassis number. My new Stingray had been missing for years. It was the third racing Z-06 built. It was one of six lightweight specials built by Zora Duntov to combat the new A C Cobra racers at Riverside in late 1962.
This special Car never made it to Riverside, however. It was destined to race an even more important race with an important driver. It would be disguised as a NASCAR racer, fitted with a 427 Chevrolet MkII, “Mystery Motor” and it would sit on the pole at Daytona USA with the famed Junior Johnson driving. The car was actually built by a trio of pretty famous racers, Mickey Thompson, Smokey Yunick, and Junior Johnson. Each of them Champions in various forms of motor racing.
After a third place finish in the Daytona race, the motor was pulled and the chassis returned to Southern California. Mickey’s job was done, so the car was sold to the aforementioned Norm Burger. Norm fitted a 327 Chevy back into the racing chassis and turned it loose with some heavy sports car racers driving. It traded back and forth between Doug Hooper and Billy Krause. The only victory of record was at Dodger Stadium, with Hooper, in 1963.
Its hard to say who all drove the little car. When it was bought it had the name Sal Tomasello over the door. We don’t know who else was involved, but one thing we do know is that the car was always owned by Norm Burger. It was Norm to whom we made our checks payable, even though we had never met the man.
Since that time, the car has been returned to its racing silver color and original number, as it raced in the NASCAR race. It has been invited to show at Bloomington, Illinois and at the Corvette Museum in Bowling Green, Kentucky. The car has also been to Carlisle, Pennsylvania for a celebration of Corvette racing history. It is believed this is one of the most significant Stingrays ever built.
With the Wild West Racers, the car has performed at nearly every important racing track in the United States. The majority of its current Historic racing was accomplished from 1983 to 1993. It currently resides in Burbank, California.
THE CAR TODAY. THESE PHOTOS WERE TAKEN AT CORVETTES AT CARLISLE RACE CAR REUNION 2004.
NOTE THE ''ORIGINAL FRONT SWAY BAR''
IN 2008, THE CAR WAS DISPLAYED WITH THE ENGINE ''ORIGINAL 427 MARK I ''MYSTERY ENGINE'' THAT TOM HAD PURCHASED AT A SMOKEY PARTS AUCTION IN THE MID 80'S.......THAT'S ANOTHER GREAT STORY.
INTERIOR
Last edited by jimgessner; 10-20-2012 at 12:48 PM.
10-20-2012, 02:11 PM
#65
Tech Contributor
10-20-2012, 04:52 PM
#67
Safety Car
The ''aero'' on the C-2 Coupe is terrible. At any spped over 120, the car gets very loose as the front end ''lifts'' especially at the base of the windshield. Many race C-1 and C-2 cars had leather straps to keep the hoods secure. The headlight problem was from ''drafting'' the PONTIAC like todays NASCAR racers.
10-20-2012, 06:52 PM
#68
Drifting
Verne,
Glad to see you drop in on this thread as you are an expert on this subject.
Maybe I mis-spoke a little about the "Z-11 package"! Nevertheless, the individual parts were available in late '62 and showed up at the '62 NHRA Nationals at Indy. All the faster cars there had these special parts. At the time, I had no idea these parts had been released for the '62 models and didn't find out until several years later why these '62cars were so much faster later in the year than when first released.
The one car that I have seen up close and personal is one formerly owned by Page Campbell. I understand all the alumnum parts on the car were removed from a former Sox/Martin car.
It's also my understanding The factory built some complete cars as Impalas (not Bel Air) and there was some unique feature about these cars on the firewall. Maybe the body tag or something else located other than standard production? Know anything about this?
Glad to see you drop in on this thread as you are an expert on this subject.
Maybe I mis-spoke a little about the "Z-11 package"! Nevertheless, the individual parts were available in late '62 and showed up at the '62 NHRA Nationals at Indy. All the faster cars there had these special parts. At the time, I had no idea these parts had been released for the '62 models and didn't find out until several years later why these '62cars were so much faster later in the year than when first released.
The one car that I have seen up close and personal is one formerly owned by Page Campbell. I understand all the alumnum parts on the car were removed from a former Sox/Martin car.
It's also my understanding The factory built some complete cars as Impalas (not Bel Air) and there was some unique feature about these cars on the firewall. Maybe the body tag or something else located other than standard production? Know anything about this?
Any '62 with Z-ll type engine parts had to run in FX then. The small amount of Impalas that were produced were indeed built at the Flint plant with the aluminum front clips (but no Z-11 engine parts). These were late enough in production to receive the '63 cam and exhaust manifolds however (basically the service package components offered in April of '62, which upgreaded the '62s to '63 specs) but were 100% factory stock 409s with no "special" or "0-" components. They were classed as B/FX purely because of the aluminum body panels. Every original factory-built car that I'm aware of was a Super Sport model. A few others were delivered to dealers who installed the aluminum front end (such as Dick Harrell's car). I'm not aware of any special firewall markings or trim tag codes on these cars. The few I'm aware of and have seen look like any other stock '62 409 car under the hood with the exception of some '63 engine parts. The Zintsmaster car, which is the most original car surviving today has had a Z-11 top half put on the motor not long ago. It is no longer representative of a factory car, unfortunately. It's like painting teeth on the Mona Lisa's smile!
Verne
10-20-2012, 08:02 PM
#69
Team Owner
Member Since: Mar 2003
Location: Greenville, Indiana
Posts: 26,118
Received 1,843 Likes
on
1,398 Posts
Mike,
Any '62 with Z-ll type engine parts had to run in FX then. The small amount of Impalas that were produced were indeed built at the Flint plant with the aluminum front clips (but no Z-11 engine parts). These were late enough in production to receive the '63 cam and exhaust manifolds however (basically the service package components offered in April of '62, which upgreaded the '62s to '63 specs) but were 100% factory stock 409s with no "special" or "0-" components. They were classed as B/FX purely because of the aluminum body panels. Every original factory-built car that I'm aware of was a Super Sport model. A few others were delivered to dealers who installed the aluminum front end (such as Dick Harrell's car). I'm not aware of any special firewall markings or trim tag codes on these cars. The few I'm aware of and have seen look like any other stock '62 409 car under the hood with the exception of some '63 engine parts. The Zintsmaster car, which is the most original car surviving today has had a Z-11 top half put on the motor not long ago. It is no longer representative of a factory car, unfortunately. It's like painting teeth on the Mona Lisa's smile!
Verne
Any '62 with Z-ll type engine parts had to run in FX then. The small amount of Impalas that were produced were indeed built at the Flint plant with the aluminum front clips (but no Z-11 engine parts). These were late enough in production to receive the '63 cam and exhaust manifolds however (basically the service package components offered in April of '62, which upgreaded the '62s to '63 specs) but were 100% factory stock 409s with no "special" or "0-" components. They were classed as B/FX purely because of the aluminum body panels. Every original factory-built car that I'm aware of was a Super Sport model. A few others were delivered to dealers who installed the aluminum front end (such as Dick Harrell's car). I'm not aware of any special firewall markings or trim tag codes on these cars. The few I'm aware of and have seen look like any other stock '62 409 car under the hood with the exception of some '63 engine parts. The Zintsmaster car, which is the most original car surviving today has had a Z-11 top half put on the motor not long ago. It is no longer representative of a factory car, unfortunately. It's like painting teeth on the Mona Lisa's smile!
Verne
Yes, I did know the cars ran FX class.
You're saying that any '62 Impala that was factory built with the aluminum body parts had a 409 engine in it, upgraded to '63 409 specs and was not a Z-11 engine?
Also that the Z-11 engine/parts were available OTC in 1962, say mid-year?
Do I understand you right?
Last edited by MikeM; 10-20-2012 at 08:04 PM.
10-20-2012, 08:14 PM
#70
Le Mans Master
The ''aero'' on the C-2 Coupe is terrible. At any spped over 120, the car gets very loose as the front end ''lifts'' especially at the base of the windshield. Many race C-1 and C-2 cars had leather straps to keep the hoods secure. The headlight problem was from ''drafting'' the PONTIAC like todays NASCAR racers.
BTW thank you for the Sports Cars Reunion invitation. Pat and I had a GREAT time with R. David and Sherrie today
10-20-2012, 10:14 PM
#71
Drifting
New information to me here if I'm hearing you right.
Yes, I did know the cars ran FX class.
You're saying that any '62 Impala that was factory built with the aluminum body parts had a 409 engine in it, upgraded to '63 409 specs and was not a Z-11 engine?
Also that the Z-11 engine/parts were available OTC in 1962, say mid-year?
Do I understand you right?
Yes, I did know the cars ran FX class.
You're saying that any '62 Impala that was factory built with the aluminum body parts had a 409 engine in it, upgraded to '63 409 specs and was not a Z-11 engine?
Also that the Z-11 engine/parts were available OTC in 1962, say mid-year?
Do I understand you right?
Verne
10-20-2012, 11:18 PM
#72
Race Director
Member Since: Mar 2001
Location: Mustang OK
Posts: 13,849
Received 3,769 Likes
on
1,671 Posts
2023 C1 of the Year Finalist - Modified
2015 C1 of the Year Finalist
New information to me here if I'm hearing you right.
Yes, I did know the cars ran FX class.
You're saying that any '62 Impala that was factory built with the aluminum body parts had a 409 engine in it, upgraded to '63 409 specs and was not a Z-11 engine?
Also that the Z-11 engine/parts were available OTC in 1962, say mid-year?
Do I understand you right?
Yes, I did know the cars ran FX class.
You're saying that any '62 Impala that was factory built with the aluminum body parts had a 409 engine in it, upgraded to '63 409 specs and was not a Z-11 engine?
Also that the Z-11 engine/parts were available OTC in 1962, say mid-year?
Do I understand you right?
I just had a LONG visit yesterday with an owner of a 62 car that was FLINT built (the ONLY plant where alum panels were ever installed) with alum panels (hood, inner and outer fender panels) and a 409/409.
There were BOTH packages of engine parts, as well as seperate engine parts that would upgrade a 409---------------------NOT a 427, in LATE 1962. The parts (both packages and/or individual parts) were essentially what were installed on the 1963 Z11 Impalas. Some 409 racers, such as Hayden Proffitt, had a crate of heads, intake cam and other hardware shipped directly to them for "field" installation. Also, for those racers in the know, individual parts could be ordered seperately.
The actual number of 1962 Impalas built at Flint with alum panels is not totally clear. But the number is between 18-21 cars. It is understood that Chevrolet built these few LATE 62 Impalas so that they could positively determine if they could put together the Z11 cars for 1963.
So, with all that said, the 1962 cars with upgraded engine parts had 409 engines with what was to be installed on the 63 Z11 427 engines.
The 63 Z11 cars (which was a PACKAGE, NOT just an engine) had the 427 engine, which was a stroked 409 with the different heads, intake, cam, etc (it was a genuine W-motor which was the MK I motor). The Z11 package for 63 was built one way and one way only. It was a plain Impala 2dr------------------NOT an SS. The only variation was body colors.
The 63 427 Mystery Motor was the MK II and basically the forrunner to the 65-later MK IV 396-454 family (it was never production installed, it was clandestinely provided out the "back door" to SELECTED racers). I'm quite sure that everyone here is aware that when the high level Chev/GM brass found out about that mystery engine in mid-63, they mandated that all production and support cease immediately (another clear example of GM's short sightedness back then------------------and it continues today). There was never a MK III, it only existed on drawings, but never built.
Tom Parsons
Last edited by DZAUTO; 10-20-2012 at 11:27 PM.
10-21-2012, 08:04 AM
#73
Team Owner
Member Since: Mar 2003
Location: Greenville, Indiana
Posts: 26,118
Received 1,843 Likes
on
1,398 Posts
I'm quite sure that everyone here is aware that when the high level Chev/GM brass found out about that mystery engine in mid-63, they mandated that all production and support cease immediately (another clear example of GM's short sightedness back then------------------Tom Parsons
Pontiac was putting some pretty hot stuff out the door back then. Engine, lightweight Calalinas, the 421 '63 Tempests.
The Chairman of the Board of GM must have had his head up his rear if he didn't know about all that was going on. Everyone else did!
10-21-2012, 03:29 PM
#74
Team Owner
Member Since: Oct 2000
Location: Washington Michigan
Posts: 38,899
Received 1,857 Likes
on
1,100 Posts
10-21-2012, 03:57 PM
#75
Team Owner
Member Since: Mar 2003
Location: Greenville, Indiana
Posts: 26,118
Received 1,843 Likes
on
1,398 Posts
The GM Chairman in those days (1958-1967) was Frederic G. Donner, a totally humorless guy whose background was 100% Finance - he didn't know a carburetor from a spark plug, and cared less. He had already been publicly embarrassed by the Nader (Corvair) Senate hearings, and didn't want ANY kind of GM publicity. The LAST thing he cared about was racing or performance in any way, shape, or form.
10-21-2012, 04:07 PM
#76
Safety Car
There were two races at DAYTONA, and it gets confusing. THERE WAS ANOTHER 427 MYSTERY MOTOR White Corvette driven by REX WHITE. SO TWO Corvettes with the special 427 engine. It ran only 28 laps. THESE 427 MONSTERS ONLY RACED IN THE 250 MILE ''ALL AMERICAN CHALLANGE'' race on Saturday Feb 16, 1963
Mickey Thompson took 4 CORVETTES to DAYTONA in
February 63.
All were Z0-6 coupes with the big 36 gallon gas tanks. Two of the cars had special 427 'Mystery Motors' and NASCAR Grand National 3 speed transmissions, and heavy modifications as stated earlier. One was silver, the other was white.
These big block monsters raced on Saturday Feb. 16, 1963 in the
DAYTONA 250 mile AMERICAN CHALLENGE RACE, a two hour sprint warm up race against other prototype cars of the era. Junior Johnson qualified the car on Sunday Feb 10 on the pole, but due to light rain on Saturday did not drive the car in the race. Mickey asked Bill Krause to sit in, and he did and finished 4th. That silver car is today owned by Tom McIntyre in
Burbank and we have all seen it race at Monterey Historic since 1985.
Rex White drove the other 427 "Mystery motor " Corvette that day. The car is MIA and still being looked for.
On Sunday, February 17, 1963 the 500 mile CONTINENTAL race
that in 1966 became the 24 hours at Daytona, had the other two
production Mickey Thompson 63 Corvette Z0-6 coupes with the standard 327/360hp fuel injection engine, and 36 gal gas tanks and special brake and suspension systems.
Billy Krause was scheduled and drove the standard Z0-6 silver #4 car, and Doug Hooper drove the dark blue #3 entry which was the same car he drove and won Riverside in October 62 at the TIMES GRAND PRIX.
LATER......The silver # 4 BILLY KRAUSE CAR was entered into the 1963 LeMans race. Both Krause and Hooper were suppose to drive, but after DAYTONA Bunky Knudson put the hammer down hard "NO CORPORATE SPONSORED RACING", and as Doug told me
years ago, "Never quit your day job". The cars and drivers never went to France.
The white REX WHITE 427 car is MIA as well as the DOUG HOOPER #3 Riverside winner and Daytona contender.
CAR & DRIVER, MAY 1963, PAGE 92 SHOWED THIS PHOTO
Mickey Thompson took 4 CORVETTES to DAYTONA in
February 63.
All were Z0-6 coupes with the big 36 gallon gas tanks. Two of the cars had special 427 'Mystery Motors' and NASCAR Grand National 3 speed transmissions, and heavy modifications as stated earlier. One was silver, the other was white.
These big block monsters raced on Saturday Feb. 16, 1963 in the
DAYTONA 250 mile AMERICAN CHALLENGE RACE, a two hour sprint warm up race against other prototype cars of the era. Junior Johnson qualified the car on Sunday Feb 10 on the pole, but due to light rain on Saturday did not drive the car in the race. Mickey asked Bill Krause to sit in, and he did and finished 4th. That silver car is today owned by Tom McIntyre in
Burbank and we have all seen it race at Monterey Historic since 1985.
Rex White drove the other 427 "Mystery motor " Corvette that day. The car is MIA and still being looked for.
On Sunday, February 17, 1963 the 500 mile CONTINENTAL race
that in 1966 became the 24 hours at Daytona, had the other two
production Mickey Thompson 63 Corvette Z0-6 coupes with the standard 327/360hp fuel injection engine, and 36 gal gas tanks and special brake and suspension systems.
Billy Krause was scheduled and drove the standard Z0-6 silver #4 car, and Doug Hooper drove the dark blue #3 entry which was the same car he drove and won Riverside in October 62 at the TIMES GRAND PRIX.
LATER......The silver # 4 BILLY KRAUSE CAR was entered into the 1963 LeMans race. Both Krause and Hooper were suppose to drive, but after DAYTONA Bunky Knudson put the hammer down hard "NO CORPORATE SPONSORED RACING", and as Doug told me
years ago, "Never quit your day job". The cars and drivers never went to France.
The white REX WHITE 427 car is MIA as well as the DOUG HOOPER #3 Riverside winner and Daytona contender.
CAR & DRIVER, MAY 1963, PAGE 92 SHOWED THIS PHOTO
Last edited by jimgessner; 10-21-2012 at 04:10 PM.
03-18-2014, 12:15 AM
#79
Safety Car
We filmed the story 3-14-14
I had BILLY KRAUSE, Dick Guldstrand and Paul Reinhart all meet at Tom McIntyre's shop on Friday March 14, 2014. The five of us filmed for over 3 hours the complete ''story'' on this DAYTONA 427 Corvette. BILLY'S race history is amazing.
We also learned that Dick Guldstrand raced this car late in the 1963 season after he rolled his 63 roadster at Riverside. Dick borrowed this 63 ''Mystery'' coupe from Norm Burger, and painted his door number 56 on the sides and raced Portland, Oregon and Seattle's Kent, Washington track so he could keep his SCCA points for the 63 season.
Paul Reinhart discussed how a large wooden box showed up on his front porch full of 4 sets of drums, trailing arms and wheel cylinders and new master cylinder for his Z0-6 race car. This was late in 1963, and was Chevrolet's answer to brake development.
We also learned that Dick Guldstrand raced this car late in the 1963 season after he rolled his 63 roadster at Riverside. Dick borrowed this 63 ''Mystery'' coupe from Norm Burger, and painted his door number 56 on the sides and raced Portland, Oregon and Seattle's Kent, Washington track so he could keep his SCCA points for the 63 season.
Paul Reinhart discussed how a large wooden box showed up on his front porch full of 4 sets of drums, trailing arms and wheel cylinders and new master cylinder for his Z0-6 race car. This was late in 1963, and was Chevrolet's answer to brake development.
Last edited by jimgessner; 03-18-2014 at 12:18 AM.
