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Old 01-15-2008, 08:33 AM   #1
Sundevil64
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Default heads-double humps or aluminum?

I am sure this topic has been worn out, since when I do a search every thing in forum comes up, or at least it seems.

I am gatherin parts for my 327 build up. The car will be a driver and I am not doing a frame off for a while.

I am considering either double hump head which can be found at a reasonable price with all machine work done. I am also looking at aluminum heads since they are lighter, flow very well, and dissapate heat well. I have looked at ebay, catalogs, etc. I would love some afr's, but they are pricey. I am sure they are deserving of the price tag, but I would rather spend the premium on other parts for the car.

Do you folks have any feedback on "Procomp", "Patriot", or "Edelbrock" heads? They seem to be in the price range of $700-1100/set. I am leaning toward the "Patriot" heads for the price of $800 plus $30 shipping. Any thoughts?
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Old 01-15-2008, 08:53 AM   #2
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Default heads

i am putting a 350 together for my 56 aluminum heads are the way to go bolt on and go .you will put a lot into orig double humps and they still will not flow,plus no accessorie holes.i will probably go with pro comp heads .i put a set of big block heads on my jet boat work awsome.and the price is right forged in australia machined in j____ then my machine shop goes over them and assembles them with my specs.i dont like the machined in j____ part but everything else come from there good luck on your build
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Old 01-15-2008, 09:05 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundevil64 View Post

I am gatherin parts for my 327 build up. The car will be a driver and I am not doing a frame off for a while.

Do you folks have any feedback on "Procomp", "Patriot", or "Edelbrock" heads? They seem to be in the price range of $700-1100/set. I am leaning toward the "Patriot" heads for the price of $800 plus $30 shipping. Any thoughts?
Hey Sundevil64, sounds like a nice build/car you have there
With the thought of a nice 327 driver there is probably no need what-so-ever to have pricey heads on the car or would the normal nice 327 mill need them. Believe one of the 07 CarCraft issues specifically mentioned that the Patriot heads worked quite well and considering the price they highly recommended them. And the alum. heads draws attention whenever the hood is angled up for sure.
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Old 01-15-2008, 09:59 AM   #4
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Here is the text of a post I made last month regarding a similar subject. I was very surprised at the results, but they are what they are.:

In the latest issue of Pop Hot Rodding (Feb. 08), they gave the results of this year's Engine Masters Challenge. Idea this year, was to have any street type engine from 302 on up to 500 CID using original bore/stroke (with a minor cleanup allowed), limit to 10.5 CR, and commonly available aftermarket or stock heads with flat tappet hyd. cams only. Displacement differences were calculated using a formula vs. HP and torq. across 2500 to 6500 RPM to equalize them, and was looking at the relative efficiency per cubic inch.

Most teams showed up with aftermarket heads, and ran anything from a 302 to 400 SB Chevys, a 331 Hemi, 340 & 318 Chryslers, and 331 FE, 351W, 352FE, 400M, 427 etc. Fords, 454 BB Chevy, 400 Buick and Pontiacs, 401 & 390 AMC, and a 500 Caddy.

The surprise to me was the 327 Chevy which placed 11th overall (out of 29 final entrants), with stock 461 heads (2.02/1.6 valves)! They used a Comp cams 236/240 duration cam (@ .050" lift) with .520/.530 lift. Crane 1.5 rockers (I assume full rollers), stock GM 5.7" rods and GM crank. Pistons were Ross, with Speed-Pro rings, intake was a Weiand Air Strike with no spacer, and a 820 Demon carb., going through 1-5/8" Hooker headers and Magnaflow mufflers. Block was a stock 327, so I assume 2 bolt mains.

Max torque was 450 @ 4200, & max HP was 470 @ 6500. However, it was developing a torque of 379 @ 2500!

The overall winner was a 400 SBC with Racer Pro heads, Comp Cam 252/259 duration (.690 lift), Dart intake, Holley 1050 carb. Saw 581 torque @ 5100 with max HP of 673 @ 6500. Torque @ 2500 was 474.

Those "old" 461 heads obviously are still pretty good!

Note however, all of the engines used electric water pumps, which was allowed by the rules, but does not reflect (to me) a street engine.


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Old 01-15-2008, 10:04 AM   #5
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What do you have against iron heads? The aftermarket makes some great iron heads that will compliment your engine. World Products and Dart come to mind firs. Since your building a "street" motor the performance advantage of alum. over iron probably won't be felt in the seat of your pants, except the expense in your wallet. You can get 67cc or 76cc heads with all the accessory mounts etc. and they can be port matched to intake and exhaust.
I'm still running my rebuilt/modified original heads on my 331. PM me, I can tell you a lot more. Dennis
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Old 01-15-2008, 10:15 AM   #6
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Seems to me there are a ton of the original style 461 heads that can be cleaned up for less than an arm and leg and will provide good results on the street. AND, look original like a 327 should My 1 cent worth.
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Old 01-15-2008, 10:26 AM   #7
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Before I'd spend that kind of money on Asian heads I'd seriously look at a set of Brodix IK180s for $1K, IF you are set on aluminum. Otherwise there is the old and ongoing discussion of spending money on refurbing a set of originals vs new aftermarket heads of various flavors.
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Old 01-15-2008, 11:00 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Marzahl View Post
Before I'd spend that kind of money on Asian heads I'd seriously look at a set of Brodix IK180s for $1K, IF you are set on aluminum. Otherwise there is the old and ongoing discussion of spending money on refurbing a set of originals vs new aftermarket heads of various flavors.
Procomps are Chinese... run away...

For a 327 170cc to 185cc Heads are optimum... the most effecient heads have the highest CFM ratings with the smallest CC's... they will offer both throtle reponse (per small cc's) and top end horsepower (per CFM's).

I also agree that Brodix IK 180cc heads are a great deal @ $1000 assembled... a good match for a 327.

Here's a flow chart that compares SBC heads in CFM and CC size.

http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tablehdc.htm#Chevy


Patriots are good heads... flow well, good price.

If you are going to rebuild your originals...professional pocket porting is a better CFM producer than installing larger valves.. .. more bang for the buck.
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Old 01-15-2008, 11:47 AM   #9
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Scott just informed me that Patriot had farmed out some of their
casting chores to China and had been having some quality issues..
I'll withdraw my recomendation.... Patriot got their start buying GM
castings by the truckload and CNC porting them... offering good flow at a decent
price... I was unaware of their Chinese affiliaton on their house brand
heads.
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Old 01-15-2008, 11:53 AM   #10
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Default heads

Thanks for the feedback. There are some good points there. I asked a machine guy what he wanted to rebuild some dh heads and he said it would be in the neighbor hood of $1K. I was shocked, but remained calm... The machinist comes recommend from a lot of different sources and he runs the shop himself w/o help. He may be looking at a volume thing. He can't turn as much work around if he is working on "these" heads. Is the porting something I can do. I am pretty handy with a dremel... almost "dentist like". Just kidding.

Well looking at the feedback it's either going to be 461 heads, although I already have a set of 291's that need some love or it will be either patriot or procomps. The price is very attractive for the bolt on and go, but they definitely don't look original. Kind of a like a bad "boob job"- fun, attracts alot of attention, but they aren't original.
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Old 01-15-2008, 11:54 AM   #11
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does anyone have pics of before and after "pocket porting"?
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Old 01-15-2008, 12:05 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KyleDallas View Post
Scott just informed me that Patriot had farmed out some of their
casting chores to China and had been having some quality issues..
I'll withdraw my recomendation.... Patriot got their start buying GM
castings by the truckload and CNC porting them... offering good flow at a decent
price... I was unaware of their Chinese affiliaton on their house brand
heads.

I'm using Chinese heads on my daily driver. They came from TRI STATE CYLINDER HEADS. I have over 6,000 miles without any problems. They have 190 cc intakes and 2.02/1.60 valves. All assembled- with the springs of my choosing- For under $800.
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Old 01-15-2008, 12:06 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundevil64 View Post
does anyone have pics of before and after "pocket porting"?
A Dremel tool is not what you would want to use. I use an air powered die grinder with carbide burrs (available in a variety of lengths to get down the throat of the port as needed). Then get a variety of sanding rolls for finishing the ports off (blending and smoothing as necessary). You will need 1/4" round rods with slots (for whipping strips of emery cloth for final blending / smoothing), and tapered threaded ends for holding / using the sanding rolls with the die grinder.

Search the web for porting info. Here is one that also includes what not to do:

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/eng...ads/index.html

Plasticman

Last edited by Plasticman; 01-15-2008 at 12:12 PM.
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Old 01-15-2008, 12:07 PM   #14
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Just saw your Austin address Sundevil... you've got a Golden machinist
just minutes from you... go see Greg Killingsworth and crew at Pflugerville
Machine... They've built IMCA National Championship Sport Mod engines
and Sport Mod rules mandate use a very close to stock head... have
him pocket port your heads...& rebuild them.

http://www.pflugervillemachine.com/index.html

Come have lunch and go to the Fort Worth Lagrave Field swap meet
on the 27th this month with some of us Texas C1/C2 CF guys... there might be some heads there for you to buy.

see the Lagrave Thread currently on C1/C2 main board for details
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Old 01-15-2008, 02:47 PM   #15
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Here is another article on what is involved with porting.

http://www.sa-motorsports.com/diyport.aspx
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Old 01-15-2008, 03:15 PM   #16
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Sundevil64....... I have a pair of 461 camelback heads. They have been completely rebuilt by a ASE certified mechanic. The casting # is 3782461. I purchased them to rebuild my 327 but have decided to go to a 350/350.
If you are interested email me at bynes@mac.com. I can send you more information. Shipping will be expensive.
Good luck on your rebuild.
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Old 01-15-2008, 08:53 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plasticman View Post
The surprise to me was the 327 Chevy which placed 11th overall (out of 29 final entrants), with stock 461 heads (2.02/1.6 valves)! They used a Comp cams 236/240 duration cam (@ .050" lift) with .520/.530 lift. Crane 1.5 rockers (I assume full rollers), stock GM 5.7" rods and GM crank. Pistons were Ross, with Speed-Pro rings, intake was a Weiand Air Strike with no spacer, and a 820 Demon carb., going through 1-5/8" Hooker headers and Magnaflow mufflers. Block was a stock 327, so I assume 2 bolt mains.

Max torque was 450 @ 4200, & max HP was 470 @ 6500. However, it was developing a torque of 379 @ 2500!



The point about the basic goodness of the 461/462 heads has been made so often here that by now I believe it. I wonder how much porting was done on these heads?
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Old 01-15-2008, 10:42 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KyleDallas View Post
Just saw your Austin address Sundevil... you've got a Golden machinist
just minutes from you... go see Greg Killingsworth and crew at Pflugerville
Machine... They've built IMCA National Championship Sport Mod engines
and Sport Mod rules mandate use a very close to stock head... have
him pocket port your heads...& rebuild them.

http://www.pflugervillemachine.com/index.html

Come have lunch and go to the Fort Worth Lagrave Field swap meet
on the 27th this month with some of us Texas C1/C2 CF guys... there might be some heads there for you to buy.

see the Lagrave Thread currently on C1/C2 main board for details
I have not stopped by, but I looked at their web site. I am going to try to go to the FTW show. It would look like Sunday for me because I have a show to do in Dallas later that day. PM your number. If I head up I'll give ya a ring.
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Old 01-15-2008, 10:59 PM   #19
Sundevil64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Marzahl View Post
Here is another article on what is involved with porting.

http://www.sa-motorsports.com/diyport.aspx

Great site thanks!
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Old 01-15-2008, 11:07 PM   #20
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Quote:
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The point about the basic goodness of the 461/462 heads has been made so often here that by now I believe it. I wonder how much porting was done on these heads?
Louie,

That is the $64,000 question (or is that $64 million with inflation?).

There certainly are limits as to how far you can take those heads with just porting! I hope they do a follow up on what they did!

Plasticman
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Old 01-15-2008, 11:07 PM
 
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