500hp 2 x 4 WCFB ! (well almost)
05-21-2010, 10:38 AM
#41
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
05-21-2010, 10:49 AM
#42
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Joe & Jim,
Outstanding, and will await the article.
Just 2 last questions: Why the solid roller as opposed to a hyd. roller? I understand the solid roller should give more hp on the top end (and have good race experience with them), but just want to ask what your thought process was (for a street engine, or is it?).
What is the exhaust?
Thanks,
John
Outstanding, and will await the article.
Just 2 last questions: Why the solid roller as opposed to a hyd. roller? I understand the solid roller should give more hp on the top end (and have good race experience with them), but just want to ask what your thought process was (for a street engine, or is it?).
What is the exhaust?
Thanks,
John
Last edited by Plasticman; 05-21-2010 at 10:51 AM.
05-21-2010, 11:19 AM
#43
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
I like solids (real Corvette owners have a feeler gauge for their valves) and Jim likes rollers so we compromised...a solid roller.
Seriously, Jim discussed with the COMP expert on limited intake and limited exhaust (rams horn) issues with keeping the original 270/283 set-up. So, Jim will discuss that in the Corvette Enthusiast article.
Joe
Seriously, Jim discussed with the COMP expert on limited intake and limited exhaust (rams horn) issues with keeping the original 270/283 set-up. So, Jim will discuss that in the Corvette Enthusiast article.
Joe
Joe & Jim,
Outstanding, and will await the article.
Just 2 last questions: Why the solid roller as opposed to a hyd. roller? I understand the solid roller should give more hp on the top end (and have good race experience with them), but just want to ask what your thought process was (for a street engine, or is it?).
What is the exhaust?
Thanks,
John
Outstanding, and will await the article.
Just 2 last questions: Why the solid roller as opposed to a hyd. roller? I understand the solid roller should give more hp on the top end (and have good race experience with them), but just want to ask what your thought process was (for a street engine, or is it?).
What is the exhaust?
Thanks,
John
05-21-2010, 11:27 AM
#44
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Wes, now that you ARE an officer, you must learn to keep secrets (КГБ).
Sorry we will miss you and Mei, give her a hug.
Joe
Sorry we will miss you and Mei, give her a hug.
Joe
Joe, congratulations on the results... this build has been a long time coming. I like your undercover way of doing things... I seem to recall the "right hand dipstick 283" you were running when we first met. I look forward to hearing about your trip and how you do on the track... just be careful the back end doesn't come around on you.
BTW, if your Team G intake is a #7530, it will fit under the stock hood with a black, GM drop base air cleaner. We run a #7530 on our 62 with the stock hood.
Too bad you won't be stopping by CFCI. Mei is flying in next Thursday, and would have liked to see you. I have a 96 hour pass for Memorial Day, and will be driving down from Ft Knox. We will be at CFCI Thursday night, and Friday during the day.
Good luck on your trip.
BTW, if your Team G intake is a #7530, it will fit under the stock hood with a black, GM drop base air cleaner. We run a #7530 on our 62 with the stock hood.
Too bad you won't be stopping by CFCI. Mei is flying in next Thursday, and would have liked to see you. I have a 96 hour pass for Memorial Day, and will be driving down from Ft Knox. We will be at CFCI Thursday night, and Friday during the day.
Good luck on your trip.
Last edited by devildog; 05-21-2010 at 11:30 AM.
05-21-2010, 11:56 AM
#45
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We did look at Hyd rollers long and hard for this combo and could have done pretty well with them. Smallblocks are a lot more forgiving than big blocks on solid rollers. Lighter valvetrain, pushrods aren't angled etc etc. We used a tight lash lobe with correct take up ramps to minimize slamming valves around.
A Hyd roller has the same issue...needle bearings...and in fact they don't even have pressurized oiling to the axles like solid rollers do. Everything is Ok with OEM light spring pressure and soft cam ramps. But people always want more and really have it in their heads to make Hyd rollers rev high. That means stouter springs, more aggressive lobes (actually the softer lobes rev the best. But to make power need stronger lobes). What is occurring these days is that people are starting to see the same issues with Hyd's that they have been seeing with solids.
It's just physics.
We're going to drive this solid roller cross country next week and don't expect much issue.
Plus...Joe just likes to play with feeler gauges....and he was determined that it needed to sound like a 283/270 valvetrain. *Might* have a little more bark to the exhaust though!
JIM
A Hyd roller has the same issue...needle bearings...and in fact they don't even have pressurized oiling to the axles like solid rollers do. Everything is Ok with OEM light spring pressure and soft cam ramps. But people always want more and really have it in their heads to make Hyd rollers rev high. That means stouter springs, more aggressive lobes (actually the softer lobes rev the best. But to make power need stronger lobes). What is occurring these days is that people are starting to see the same issues with Hyd's that they have been seeing with solids.
It's just physics.
We're going to drive this solid roller cross country next week and don't expect much issue.
Plus...Joe just likes to play with feeler gauges....and he was determined that it needed to sound like a 283/270 valvetrain. *Might* have a little more bark to the exhaust though!
JIM
05-21-2010, 05:44 PM
#46
Live Free or Die
05-21-2010, 08:00 PM
#47
Melting Slicks
Several of you have asked to have an update on my 'new 270hp/283' build. I did dyno on Monday here in Houston at the School of Automotive Machinists (SAM). There is a Corvette Enthusiast magazine article involved so I can not steal all the thunder now, but here is a summary:
1.I used all the same components I have run on the car for 42 years except a new DART 400 cu in SHP block with DART package internals, DART PRO 1 Platinum 200 cc heads, and a used oil pan.
2.I did carve aluminum out of the old 3739653 aluminum 2 x 4 intake runners and did open up the plenum (throats) under the two WCFB carbs. Did by hand with my air drill and rotary wood rasp and small sanding tips in air drill
3.Nothing, repeat nothing, went to a machine shop. We just got the DART block and heads from DART a few days before dyno. It was a bolt together.
4.Used a 248/248 COMP custom grind cam using a std. intake lobe used in small carb. oval track racing, used both as intake and exhaust lobe. Solid roller
5.Results were better than expected:
Team G single plane intake/Holley 750 double pumper (out of box)
520 ft lb @ 5,100 rpm 554 hp @ 6,300 rpm
Original 2 x 4 manifold (runners enlarged)/original WCFB dual carbs
475 ft lb @ 4,800 rpm 495 hp @ 6,000 rpm.
Almost 500 hp with 50 year old components on a new block and heads, but the Houston humidity got the last 5 hp.
Much more in later Corvette Enthusiast magazine article.
Joe
1.I used all the same components I have run on the car for 42 years except a new DART 400 cu in SHP block with DART package internals, DART PRO 1 Platinum 200 cc heads, and a used oil pan.
2.I did carve aluminum out of the old 3739653 aluminum 2 x 4 intake runners and did open up the plenum (throats) under the two WCFB carbs. Did by hand with my air drill and rotary wood rasp and small sanding tips in air drill
3.Nothing, repeat nothing, went to a machine shop. We just got the DART block and heads from DART a few days before dyno. It was a bolt together.
4.Used a 248/248 COMP custom grind cam using a std. intake lobe used in small carb. oval track racing, used both as intake and exhaust lobe. Solid roller
5.Results were better than expected:
Team G single plane intake/Holley 750 double pumper (out of box)
520 ft lb @ 5,100 rpm 554 hp @ 6,300 rpm
Original 2 x 4 manifold (runners enlarged)/original WCFB dual carbs
475 ft lb @ 4,800 rpm 495 hp @ 6,000 rpm.
Almost 500 hp with 50 year old components on a new block and heads, but the Houston humidity got the last 5 hp.
Much more in later Corvette Enthusiast magazine article.
Joe
Well done for attempting big figures on a stock looking motor. It will be interesting to see the engine bay. I hope you have big disc brakes and a good 5 speed. I'd love to see a 1/4 time on it..... Stewy
05-21-2010, 11:43 PM
#48
Drifting
Very cool build. 
But a few questions.
On the dyno, what exhaust was used?? As Stewy says, The exhaust can kill it. The wrong exhaust could kill 80-100 HP.
Hooking up. And I do not mean with females. If if hooks it will break the rear end in many ways. Not hooking will only make the car look dumb with all the tire smoke. This is probably the most important problem with a really strong engine. If it still has the T-10, sell it before it becomes scrape money.
But a few questions. On the dyno, what exhaust was used?? As Stewy says, The exhaust can kill it. The wrong exhaust could kill 80-100 HP.
Hooking up. And I do not mean with females. If if hooks it will break the rear end in many ways. Not hooking will only make the car look dumb with all the tire smoke. This is probably the most important problem with a really strong engine. If it still has the T-10, sell it before it becomes scrape money.
05-22-2010, 12:23 AM
#49
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Jim,
I just put a T-45 in it. I will put as large a rear tire as i can under it without different springs or cutting the wheel wells. I guess that is a 225, maybe 235 tire.
As I remember, the axels twisted off first. I have heard there is stronger alloy axel that might be worth the effort.
I will only drag it two-three times a year for fun, no serious competition. A little auto-xing, making noise and acting like a fool. My goal is to keep it original as possible but with a bunch more power when I want it. Scare C-5 and C-6's
Why not with females ?
Thanks for advice and concern
Joe
I just put a T-45 in it. I will put as large a rear tire as i can under it without different springs or cutting the wheel wells. I guess that is a 225, maybe 235 tire.
As I remember, the axels twisted off first. I have heard there is stronger alloy axel that might be worth the effort.
I will only drag it two-three times a year for fun, no serious competition. A little auto-xing, making noise and acting like a fool. My goal is to keep it original as possible but with a bunch more power when I want it. Scare C-5 and C-6's
Why not with females ?
Thanks for advice and concern
Joe
Very cool build. But a few questions.
On the dyno, what exhaust was used?? As Stewy says, The exhaust can kill it. The wrong exhaust could kill 80-100 HP.
Hooking up. And I do not mean with females. If if hooks it will break the rear end in many ways. Not hooking will only make the car look dumb with all the tire smoke. This is probably the most important problem with a really strong engine. If it still has the T-10, sell it before it becomes scrape money.
But a few questions. On the dyno, what exhaust was used?? As Stewy says, The exhaust can kill it. The wrong exhaust could kill 80-100 HP.
Hooking up. And I do not mean with females. If if hooks it will break the rear end in many ways. Not hooking will only make the car look dumb with all the tire smoke. This is probably the most important problem with a really strong engine. If it still has the T-10, sell it before it becomes scrape money.
05-22-2010, 09:35 AM
#50
Team Owner
I just went out in the garage and hugged my dual quad 270HP WCFBs.
Who the heck would have thought...I guess 'ole Will Carter was pretty smart after all!
Who the heck would have thought...I guess 'ole Will Carter was pretty smart after all!
05-22-2010, 12:33 PM
#51
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Good observations about single pattern cams.
It all has to do with *where* the restriction is in the exhaust...as well as the intake. Using a typical dual pattern cam with a longer exhaust event would make overlap issues with restricted exhaust even worse with manifolds unless we spread the LSA real wide and/or shortened up the overall duration. If the restriction is at the end of the exhaust (mufflers) there is one requirement...if it's at the head flange (manifolds) it's another.
It's the same with intake side....vastly different cam selection for a motor with a restrictive carb, or a restrictive intake, or a restrictive head...or combinations of the three. Definitely different requirements for all three.
And also remember, you have to look at low lift head flow numbers on both intake and exhaust to determine what it can stand...as well as look closely at the opening and closing profiles and *curtain area* of valve opening that happens in relation to piston movement. All 248* lobes are not the same. A Cam Doctor report reveals differences you would never know otherwise.
In fact some other testing this week with a serious tight LSA single pattern cam in a nasty big block provided some pretty interesting trends. Overlap created HUGE demands for fuel as it attempted to blow too much out the exhaust ports, yet it also had strong pull on intake tract. Still made great power...just not as efficient. But that motor is vastly different than this 400.
I'm going to do my best to cover all of this and the reasoning behind it in the magazine article.
But of course there is always more than one way to do anything...this one just happens to work too!
After next week's road trip to North Carolina to the Vette show we will have a very detailed description of its road manners. Initial impressions are VERY good!
JIM
It all has to do with *where* the restriction is in the exhaust...as well as the intake. Using a typical dual pattern cam with a longer exhaust event would make overlap issues with restricted exhaust even worse with manifolds unless we spread the LSA real wide and/or shortened up the overall duration. If the restriction is at the end of the exhaust (mufflers) there is one requirement...if it's at the head flange (manifolds) it's another.
It's the same with intake side....vastly different cam selection for a motor with a restrictive carb, or a restrictive intake, or a restrictive head...or combinations of the three. Definitely different requirements for all three.
And also remember, you have to look at low lift head flow numbers on both intake and exhaust to determine what it can stand...as well as look closely at the opening and closing profiles and *curtain area* of valve opening that happens in relation to piston movement. All 248* lobes are not the same. A Cam Doctor report reveals differences you would never know otherwise.
In fact some other testing this week with a serious tight LSA single pattern cam in a nasty big block provided some pretty interesting trends. Overlap created HUGE demands for fuel as it attempted to blow too much out the exhaust ports, yet it also had strong pull on intake tract. Still made great power...just not as efficient. But that motor is vastly different than this 400.
I'm going to do my best to cover all of this and the reasoning behind it in the magazine article.
But of course there is always more than one way to do anything...this one just happens to work too!
After next week's road trip to North Carolina to the Vette show we will have a very detailed description of its road manners. Initial impressions are VERY good!
JIM
Last edited by 427Hotrod; 05-22-2010 at 12:36 PM.
05-22-2010, 07:31 PM
#54
Race Director
the numbers appear to be headers, engine dyno, open exhaust. Not sure what was attached to the front of the motor WRT water pump, alternator, etc.
I would be curious what the numbers were down around 2000 RPM.
Doug
05-22-2010, 08:57 PM
#55
12.14 w/ the original 327
05-22-2010, 09:07 PM
#56
12.14 w/ the original 327
05-22-2010, 11:10 PM
#57
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Yes it had headers. We showed up with well ported manifolds and head pipes with O2 bungs in them...but they wouldn't clear the dyno. We had planned to do a back to back header/manifold test to see what happened...just didn't work out.
Check out 632C2's old threads on his '67 using a 383 with similar heads and 2.5" rams horns and full exhaust. Seems like he was in the 411+ RWHP range in full street trim! He was using an Edelbock Performer disguised to look sorta stock...
Obviously headers help...but the manifolds probably won't hurt it too bad with the WCFB's. We'll eventually chassis dyno it to see how it acts.
Who uses an alternator on an engine dyno? We used a drive for the water pump on all tests since the generator acts as the tensioner for the belt.
We started pulls at 3000 rpm. That was my call. I don't see any point in pulling from 2000 rpm..what would you compare it to? The TQ peak was at 3300 RPM with the WCFB's. An engine dyno lets it accelerate at 300 RPM per second and I see no reason to load it at WOT at 2000 RPM and hold it back that hard when it would never happen like that in real life. If you go WOT in the car it goes through RPM MUCH quicker than it ever will on the engine dyno. A 2000 rpm pull would give no indication of driveablity. That's all in the tune.
The way this engine was dyno'd is dead on comparable with just about any other test you ever see on an engine dyno.
I sincerely think we could have played a little longer to get past the magic *500HP* mark...mainly just let it run some more. This was probably only the 2nd or 3rd pull on it...they always pick up after a few pulls to fully break them in. Joe made the call to *move on* because he said it sounded more believable to stick at 495Hp than to come up with a 500 number! We had a lot more tests to do that day....so we moved to trying the dual plane intake and Holley setup.
Just think what it could have done with the CNC ported heads...or if I had caved into my normal urge to get the porting tools out when I see a new set of heads! I excercised great restraint!
JIM
Check out 632C2's old threads on his '67 using a 383 with similar heads and 2.5" rams horns and full exhaust. Seems like he was in the 411+ RWHP range in full street trim! He was using an Edelbock Performer disguised to look sorta stock...
Obviously headers help...but the manifolds probably won't hurt it too bad with the WCFB's. We'll eventually chassis dyno it to see how it acts.
Who uses an alternator on an engine dyno? We used a drive for the water pump on all tests since the generator acts as the tensioner for the belt.
We started pulls at 3000 rpm. That was my call. I don't see any point in pulling from 2000 rpm..what would you compare it to? The TQ peak was at 3300 RPM with the WCFB's. An engine dyno lets it accelerate at 300 RPM per second and I see no reason to load it at WOT at 2000 RPM and hold it back that hard when it would never happen like that in real life. If you go WOT in the car it goes through RPM MUCH quicker than it ever will on the engine dyno. A 2000 rpm pull would give no indication of driveablity. That's all in the tune.
The way this engine was dyno'd is dead on comparable with just about any other test you ever see on an engine dyno.
I sincerely think we could have played a little longer to get past the magic *500HP* mark...mainly just let it run some more. This was probably only the 2nd or 3rd pull on it...they always pick up after a few pulls to fully break them in. Joe made the call to *move on* because he said it sounded more believable to stick at 495Hp than to come up with a 500 number! We had a lot more tests to do that day....so we moved to trying the dual plane intake and Holley setup.
Just think what it could have done with the CNC ported heads...or if I had caved into my normal urge to get the porting tools out when I see a new set of heads! I excercised great restraint!
JIM
Last edited by 427Hotrod; 05-22-2010 at 11:21 PM.
05-23-2010, 12:00 AM
#58
Drifting
Hooking up. And I do not mean with females. If if hooks it will break the rear end in many ways. Not hooking will only make the car look dumb with all the tire smoke. This is probably the most important problem with a really strong engine. If it still has the T-10, sell it before it becomes scrape money
PS, your car is doing well,
Bring it East for some real competition from all solid axle vettes in the NJO.
