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Old 07-29-2010, 07:49 PM   #1
KNIPPS
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Default Tremec or Muncie?

Ok engine is at the engine shop and I was thinking about rebuilding the trans to make everything "new" so when the new heart comes home I can bolt 'em up.....but....my internet travels and reading of posts gets me thinking.....should I go with a 5-speed Tremec in place of the old muncie?...I guess for drivability on the highway its a no brainer but is it worth it??

Anyone got pics of their 5-speed installed top and bottom...read there may need to be some cutting???.....I don't like to cut into my car.

If you had to do it over again would you do it or just keep the original 4 speed?

My car is apart so if I am going to do it I should do it now!!
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Old 07-29-2010, 08:11 PM   #2
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The first question is- How much do you drive your car and what percentage of that is on the free-way?
Second- What is your rear end ratio?

Jim
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Old 07-29-2010, 08:16 PM   #3
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don't drive now..I am in the process of a frame off...rear end 3.55...I plan on driving it every chance I get...
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Old 07-29-2010, 08:24 PM   #4
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Your post doesn't say if you have a C1 or a mid-year. There is no cutting required for putting a TKO-500 or 600 into a mid-year (don't get the TKO-500, first gear (3.27) is way too deep). There are factors (cost/originality/etc.) to consider, but unless you have very shallow gearing you'll probably love the overdrive. If you have gearing of 3.50 or deeper, you'll definitely love the overdrive. Assuming you use a Keisler version, there is no visible difference from the top, the shifter looks original. It looks slightly different from below, but when was the last time someone crawled under your car and looked at the tranny?
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Old 07-29-2010, 08:32 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KNIPPS View Post
..I plan on driving it every chance I get...
That doesn't really tell me much. I have a wide ratio Muncie with 3.36 rear gears, a Tremec TKO 600 (.82 5th gear) with 3.27 rear gears and a close ratio BW T-10 with 4.11 rear gears. The first 2 are perfect at all speeds, the last one sux on the free-way. The only change I would make on any of them is change the 4.11's to 3.70's.
5 speeds are great if you drive a lot of miles on the freeway, otherwise, they are a waste of money.

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Old 07-29-2010, 08:36 PM   #6
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Sorry,,,Its a 67 BB coupe...engine long gone, hence the new BBC transplant...I will drive the car alot but not sure how much highway driving I will do...I would on occasion like to take a few hundred mile trip...is it worth it?
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Old 07-29-2010, 08:40 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by KNIPPS View Post
.I would on occasion like to take a few hundred mile trip...is it worth it?
Not if you already have 3.55 gears. They are fine for the little free-way cruisin' you're gonna do. Spend the money, $3000+, elsewhere.

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Old 07-29-2010, 08:49 PM   #8
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IMHO, if the $$ isn't a major issue, go for it. About a year ago I sold my '70 Chevelle 454 to buy the '65 I'm working on now. Putting in the 5-speed was absolutely worth it. I'd strongly recommend you stay away from the TKO-500, especially with the big block. Years ago, when the TKO-3550 was the only option, I put one in. With 3.50 gears and the torque of the big block, the 3.27 first gear was idiotic. After the TKO 500 and 600 came out, I put in the 600 and loved driving the car afterwards.
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Old 07-29-2010, 09:53 PM   #9
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I have a TKO-500 in my 365-327 with 3:36 rear end. I love it. If I had a big torque engine I would have gone with the TKO-600. You have to decide how you plan to use the car. If you plan on long trips the five speed is great. Just an hour here or there then the four speed is OK. After owning dozens of collector cars I learned a valuable lesson, if you don't enjoy driving it, why own it?
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Old 07-29-2010, 10:01 PM   #10
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in my 67 bb/390 hp vert, I have 3:36's in the rear and a 4speed muncie. I have 215x75x15 michelins on the car and I cruise at highway speeds with no problems what so ever, the only problem is the sidepipes roaring . I travel alot with the car going all over the new england area , new york and carlisle every August. 159,000 miles and still ticking strong.
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Old 07-29-2010, 11:22 PM   #11
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Two more questions; are you running side exhaust, and do you have A/C? It gets noisy after about 20 miles at 3000+ rpm with sidepipes. If the windows are up, and it's cool inside things are different. I have 3:55 gears with a small block and side exhaust, and 100 miles with the windows down is not what I want to do often. I wish I would have opted for the Tremec when I rebuilt my M21 a few years ago in my C2. I will be shifting 5 times sometime in the future when I pull the original motor to install a hot-rod motor.
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Old 07-30-2010, 09:47 AM   #12
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or, convert your 4sp muncie to overdrive...
Bill
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Old 07-30-2010, 10:05 AM   #13
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I'd do it in a heartbeat. Overdrive is probably the best thing I've done in all my previous (and current) vehicles. Plan on driving on the freeway, don't limit yourself. Build that car to drive across the country.

Strangely enough, this is the only forum I frequent where a OD doesn't get a unanimous "Yes!".
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Old 07-30-2010, 10:13 AM   #14
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How do the two compare as to putting off heat in the drivers compartment any difference? I have a convertible and with the heat from the motor and trans in an hour I am totally wet with sweat. During the restoration I put down the heat foil, jude and carpet. It helped but still is hot.
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Old 07-30-2010, 10:21 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silvercamaro View Post
Strangely enough, this is the only forum I frequent where a OD doesn't get a unanimous "Yes!".
There are some who don't hesitate to spend $25K-$60K on a fairly frivolous 'toy' (which most collector cars are) and then balk at spending some fraction of that amount on performance/comfort upgrades....strange...

My 5-speed OD TKO-600 is the best money spent on the car so far. I literally drive it three times as much since the install. My only regret is that Keisler will have the T-45 5-speed/OD out soon for C1s which is cheaper and without the 'notchy' feel in the shifter.

Last edited by Frankie the Fink; 07-30-2010 at 10:25 AM.
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Old 07-30-2010, 10:22 AM   #16
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For the exception of my new motor, the installation of the Keisler TKO-600/.64 is the best thing I ever did to my '72. It totally transformed the car, so much more enjoyable to drive now. My smallblock is built more for torque and pulls the .64 OD fine even from down around 45 mph with my 3:36 rear end gears. I run the Hooker sidepipes and the 5th gear tames the exhaust roar on the interstate. If I still had the Muncie, I doubt I would have even tried running the Hot Rod Power Tour (3,000 miles) or the Vettes for Vets at Talladega Speedway (1,500 miles) round trips this year. It is such a pleasure to be running 80 mph on the interstate with the engine ticking just a bit over 2,000 rpm.
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Old 07-30-2010, 10:24 AM   #17
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Quote:
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or, convert your 4sp muncie to overdrive...
Bill



Bill, I was not aware that there is an overdrive gear for a M20 Muncie ?? If there is that might be a cheaper and easier fix in getting lower highway RPM's !
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Old 07-30-2010, 10:37 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silvercamaro View Post
I'd do it in a heartbeat. Overdrive is probably the best thing I've done in all my previous (and current) vehicles. Plan on driving on the freeway, don't limit yourself. Build that car to drive across the country.

Strangely enough, this is the only forum I frequent where a OD doesn't get a unanimous "Yes!".
a LOT has to do with the torque characteristics of your engine, and your expectations...

some people are satisfied that the engine isn't running 3K+ at highway speeds, some want to simply 'tame the side pipes', etc, etc; and some think they're going to get better fuel economy.

if you're looking primarily at the mpg aspect, then you may be disappointed with OD, an inherently high rpm/HP/torque engine like the solid lifter SBC is happiest running about a 3.70 rearend, but you add an OD trans and you will probably be running down in the low 2's for a final ratio... and the engine just isn't designed to efficiently run, or perform, at that rpm in OD...

now a BBC, and some SBCs (like the 300hp), typically has more low end torque and can be happy lugging along at 1.5K+ and will probably get better mpg with the OD.

so, OD is a multi-edged sword.... something for almost everybody, and nothing for some (unless you want to run a 4.11+ on the street, then it could be a win/win... )
Bill
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Old 07-30-2010, 10:43 AM   #19
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Bill, I was not aware that there is an overdrive gear for a M20 Muncie ?? If there is that might be a cheaper and easier fix in getting lower highway RPM's !
well, maybe not the M20...

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-t...overdrive.html

Bill
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Old 07-30-2010, 10:45 AM   #20
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My 3.70 283 with a Duntov cam and dual quads now sports the Tremec .64 OD 5 speed. It surprised me because the gear characteristics almost exactly match my '96 Mazda B-3000 pick up with 5-speed OD. First gear is nearly the same and the shift points are eerily close.

My concern that the OD would be useless until I was "up" on the cam's sweet spot proved unfounded. I can cruise as low as 1400RPM and the car just tools along perfectly happy and still accelerates smoothly up hills and slight rises. Anything more requires a downshift of course. The first gear is great and getting away from stop lights when facing up hill is no longer the gut wrenching exercise in "clutchmanship" that it once was.

Mileage gains around town are non-existent...you are still driving a 4-speed dual quad car...however, once on the turnpike with the OD engaged its a different story of course...

Bill (wmf62) and Plasticman did their own, pretty amazing, conversion to a 4-speed OD using the old MY-6 tranny. They even found me one at one point so I could do the same thing but the engineering and fabrication required (which they can do in their sleep) scared me off.

Last edited by Frankie the Fink; 07-30-2010 at 10:53 AM.
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