What year frames are interchangable?
08-25-2010, 05:32 PM
#1
What year frames are interchangable?
Looking at buying a 59 with a rusted frame and new to Vet hobby. I've seen frames advertised for sale for 56-62, 58-60 and 58-62. What's correct without having to cut and weld anything?
08-25-2010, 06:16 PM
#2
Race Director
They will all work for your application, but be aware a manual trans car has some additional bracketry an auto trans frame didn't have.
Also be aware you could end up with a title issue, as the VIN number follows the frame, not the body to which the VIN tag is attached. Do people have VIN numbers on bodies that don't match the frame number? Yes. But be aware it can cause problems down the road.
Doug
Also be aware you could end up with a title issue, as the VIN number follows the frame, not the body to which the VIN tag is attached. Do people have VIN numbers on bodies that don't match the frame number? Yes. But be aware it can cause problems down the road.
Doug
08-25-2010, 09:15 PM
#3
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St. Jude Donor '07
They will all work for your application, but be aware a manual trans car has some additional bracketry an auto trans frame didn't have.
Also be aware you could end up with a title issue, as the VIN number follows the frame, not the body to which the VIN tag is attached. Do people have VIN numbers on bodies that don't match the frame number? Yes. But be aware it can cause problems down the road.
Doug
Also be aware you could end up with a title issue, as the VIN number follows the frame, not the body to which the VIN tag is attached. Do people have VIN numbers on bodies that don't match the frame number? Yes. But be aware it can cause problems down the road.
Doug
BUT i have pictures showing the frame swap i did, so i figure i'm covered as best i can.
i suspect restomod people would run into the same problem.
Bill
08-25-2010, 09:26 PM
#4
Race Director
my frame was replaced in 76, and at the time i had no idea that the # was on the frame too; so i have no clue as to what the # is on it.
BUT i have pictures showing the frame swap i did, so i figure i'm covered as best i can.
i suspect restomod people would run into the same problem.
Bill
BUT i have pictures showing the frame swap i did, so i figure i'm covered as best i can.
i suspect restomod people would run into the same problem.
Bill
A) Vehicle seizure if the frame number turns up stolen,
B) issuance of a state issue VIN number on a state issued VIN tag
C) issuance of a state issued VIN tag with the original frame serial number.
An aftermarket frame will get a state issued VIN number, you may get away with using the original VIN tag ona restomod, but if a close inspection is warranted for some reason, the original VIN tag will probably go away and a state issued VIN will replace it.
Doug
08-25-2010, 10:58 PM
#5
Burning Brakes
Depending on the state, a different frame number from VIN tag number can result in:
A) Vehicle seizure if the frame number turns up stolen,
B) issuance of a state issue VIN number on a state issued VIN tag
C) issuance of a state issued VIN tag with the original frame serial number.
An aftermarket frame will get a state issued VIN number, you may get away with using the original VIN tag ona restomod, but if a close inspection is warranted for some reason, the original VIN tag will probably go away and a state issued VIN will replace it.
Doug
A) Vehicle seizure if the frame number turns up stolen,
B) issuance of a state issue VIN number on a state issued VIN tag
C) issuance of a state issued VIN tag with the original frame serial number.
An aftermarket frame will get a state issued VIN number, you may get away with using the original VIN tag ona restomod, but if a close inspection is warranted for some reason, the original VIN tag will probably go away and a state issued VIN will replace it.
Doug
08-26-2010, 02:06 AM
#6
Race Director
Seeing as only about 60 people read the C1/c2 forum on a regular basis, that is a pretty small cross section of owners to sample from....
I saw in person, a 56 Chev, with a '55 frame get a state issued VIN tag/number when i was at the DMV special inspection station last June. The person who owned the car,and was selling it to someone else, noticed the title VIN was one digit off from the body VIN, and the DMV person inspecting it, found a different frame under the car. All numbers were ran for stolen, and finally a new state VIN was issued as he couldn't/wouldn't title a '56 body with a '55 VIN number
Doug
I saw in person, a 56 Chev, with a '55 frame get a state issued VIN tag/number when i was at the DMV special inspection station last June. The person who owned the car,and was selling it to someone else, noticed the title VIN was one digit off from the body VIN, and the DMV person inspecting it, found a different frame under the car. All numbers were ran for stolen, and finally a new state VIN was issued as he couldn't/wouldn't title a '56 body with a '55 VIN number
Doug
08-26-2010, 06:51 AM
#7
Safety Car
There were several running changes to frames from 56 to 62.
56-57 were the same as I recall. Rear spring rebound bumpers had brackets welded to the side of the frame, 2 per side.
58 were basically the same as 56-57
59 added radius(strut) rods in the rear to counteract rear axle twist on hard acceleration. There will be a bracket welded to the each side of the frame about 2 feet ahead of the axle and on the carrier.(3rd pic below) Also rear rebound bumpers were located directly above the axle up under the frame arch, one per side.
61 up to 62 added a rear sway bar. It may include 60 also, can't recall. There are additional brackets welded to the frame for these.
so.....if you want a correct 59 frame, you want radius rods, no rear sway bar, and one rear axle bumper each side under the arch.
A few pics of a 59 frame I just restored.
Rich
56-57 were the same as I recall. Rear spring rebound bumpers had brackets welded to the side of the frame, 2 per side.
58 were basically the same as 56-57
59 added radius(strut) rods in the rear to counteract rear axle twist on hard acceleration. There will be a bracket welded to the each side of the frame about 2 feet ahead of the axle and on the carrier.(3rd pic below) Also rear rebound bumpers were located directly above the axle up under the frame arch, one per side.
61 up to 62 added a rear sway bar. It may include 60 also, can't recall. There are additional brackets welded to the frame for these.
so.....if you want a correct 59 frame, you want radius rods, no rear sway bar, and one rear axle bumper each side under the arch.
A few pics of a 59 frame I just restored.
Rich
08-26-2010, 08:06 AM
#8
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There are some pretty good discriptions of the differences above.
And to be more specific, if you want a 100%, direct bolt-on interchange, that you will not have to do anything to, then a 59-62 frame is your choice.
The main reason for these years is the bracket forward of the rear axle that is required for attachment of the radius rods for the rear axle housing.
If you get a 60-62 frame, it will be a perfect bolt-on swap, but it will also have the additional brackets behind the rear axle housing for the sway bar that was on 60-62 cars.
In a pinch, you CAN use a 56-58 frame, and then cut off the brackets for the radius rods and weld them onto the 56-58 frame--------------------------------but you specifically mentioned that you didn't want to do any welding, so that's why I said that only the 59-62 frames will be a direct swap.
Tom Parsons
08-26-2010, 09:08 AM
#9
my frame was replaced in 76, and at the time i had no idea that the # was on the frame too; so i have no clue as to what the # is on it.
BUT i have pictures showing the frame swap i did, so i figure i'm covered as best i can.
i suspect restomod people would run into the same problem.
Bill
BUT i have pictures showing the frame swap i did, so i figure i'm covered as best i can.
i suspect restomod people would run into the same problem.
Bill
08-26-2010, 09:21 AM
#10
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53 to 57 frame won't work without significant mods. The front bumper brackets were bolted to the frame starting in 1958, so the front frame horns are different. Of course 53-54 frames do not have the notch for V-8 fuel pump clearance.
58 to 62 gets you in the ball park, and I believe that you could use any of these without modifications and be functionally correct (not necessarily original).
Manual vs. auto is an easy fix. The clutch tower and return spring bracket can be added or removed as necessary.
Obviously, your best option is to find a 59 frame. I recall seeing one recently, perhaps on Ebay.
A word of caution: I saw your previous post about this 59 with a rusty frame. The rusty frame may NOT be the only rust issue in the car. Check the trunk / deck lid hinge towers, and the under dash support structure. Remove the kick panels and look behind them.
Good luck
58 to 62 gets you in the ball park, and I believe that you could use any of these without modifications and be functionally correct (not necessarily original).
Manual vs. auto is an easy fix. The clutch tower and return spring bracket can be added or removed as necessary.
Obviously, your best option is to find a 59 frame. I recall seeing one recently, perhaps on Ebay.
A word of caution: I saw your previous post about this 59 with a rusty frame. The rusty frame may NOT be the only rust issue in the car. Check the trunk / deck lid hinge towers, and the under dash support structure. Remove the kick panels and look behind them.
Good luck
08-26-2010, 09:32 AM
#11
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St. Jude Donor '07
I kept my old rusty frame, it's up in the rafters of my pole shed, I too, believe it could cause problems down the road, doesn't hurt to be a little paranoid. Also, document where/who/&when/ sn of frame that you replace it with. I know,I know. This guy, (me) smoked too much pot....Just cuz you'r paranoid doesn't mean somebody isn't after you!
Bill
08-26-2010, 09:35 AM
#12
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I kept my old rusty frame, it's up in the rafters of my pole shed, I too, believe it could cause problems down the road, doesn't hurt to be a little paranoid. Also, document where/who/&when/ sn of frame that you replace it with. I know,I know. This guy, (me) smoked too much pot....Just cuz you'r paranoid doesn't mean somebody isn't after you!
I'm not necessarily advocating doing the following, BUT, I have personally observed it done on a 57 that was BADLY wrecked and restored to excellent condition.
The frame was bent pretty bad, AND, some of the Corvette vendors DO SELL repair frame sections. It is legitimate to cutoff and replace sections of badly bent up frames with new sections.
Where does sectioning and replacing a frame section stop????
If you replace most, or even all of a frame, and the STAMPED VIN of the replaced frame is still intact and in good condition, I have seen EVERYTHING except that portion of the frame replaced. The frame rail with the matching VIN was cut out, that same section of the replacement frame was removed and the matching VIN portion of the old frame was grafted in, welded, the welds ground down 2-3 times until the welded/grafted joints were totally undetectable. Is this a stretch??????????? ABSOLUTELY!!!! Is it illegal? That's where it's difficult to draw the line.
As I say, I'm not advocating doing such, I'm just passing on what I personally observed and the end result retained a matching frame VIN with about 1/2 of what was left of the original matching body (rear clip and most of the right side). The front and left side of the frame was too mangled to straighten.
As everyone knows, who is familiar with these early cars, the original VIN tag is only attached with two screws. So, keeping the rear clip (BEHIND the door hinge pillar) removes the original location where the original VIN tag was attached. If the original VIN tag is attached to a REPLACEMENT door hinge pillar, I've never been aware of any complaints about that (which was also done on the car that I observed being rebuilt from what would normally have been sent to a salvage yard back then).
Tom Parsons
08-26-2010, 09:36 AM
#13
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The VIN issue is an interesting one as well.
I recall a badly damaged 56 frame that a friend had many years ago. Car was hit hard in the front, and the front frame horns were twisted like pretzels.
My friend located a nice 57 frame, and then proceeded to make it a 56 frame. First he made the various mods to match the brackets, etc. on the original 56 frame.
Then he cut all of the welds on the driver's side outer channel, and removed that part from the 57 frame. This part of the frame is where the 57 VIN was stamped.
He removed the driver's side outer channel from the damaged 56 frame. This part had the VIN stamps for the 56. He repaired the damage to the 56 outer channel, using the 57 outer channel for dimensions. None of the repair work could be seen from the outside of the channel.
He then welded the repaired 56 outer channel onto the 57 frame.
He now had a frame that had the correct configuration for his 56 car, and also had the factory 1956 VIN stamps as well. He went to a great deal of trouble to match the factory welds as closely as possible.
He made me promise never to tell this story. However, since both he, and the car are long gone, I feel safe in saying as much as I did.
I will not reveal the VIN of that 56, mainly because I cannot remember it
I recall a badly damaged 56 frame that a friend had many years ago. Car was hit hard in the front, and the front frame horns were twisted like pretzels.
My friend located a nice 57 frame, and then proceeded to make it a 56 frame. First he made the various mods to match the brackets, etc. on the original 56 frame.
Then he cut all of the welds on the driver's side outer channel, and removed that part from the 57 frame. This part of the frame is where the 57 VIN was stamped.
He removed the driver's side outer channel from the damaged 56 frame. This part had the VIN stamps for the 56. He repaired the damage to the 56 outer channel, using the 57 outer channel for dimensions. None of the repair work could be seen from the outside of the channel.
He then welded the repaired 56 outer channel onto the 57 frame.
He now had a frame that had the correct configuration for his 56 car, and also had the factory 1956 VIN stamps as well. He went to a great deal of trouble to match the factory welds as closely as possible.
He made me promise never to tell this story. However, since both he, and the car are long gone, I feel safe in saying as much as I did.
I will not reveal the VIN of that 56, mainly because I cannot remember it
08-26-2010, 10:02 AM
#14
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The VIN issue is an interesting one as well.
I recall a badly damaged 56 frame that a friend had many years ago. Car was hit hard in the front, and the front frame horns were twisted like pretzels.
My friend located a nice 57 frame, and then proceeded to make it a 56 frame. First he made the various mods to match the brackets, etc. on the original 56 frame.
Then he cut all of the welds on the driver's side outer channel, and removed that part from the 57 frame. This part of the frame is where the 57 VIN was stamped.
He removed the driver's side outer channel from the damaged 56 frame. This part had the VIN stamps for the 56. He repaired the damage to the 56 outer channel, using the 57 outer channel for dimensions. None of the repair work could be seen from the outside of the channel.
He then welded the repaired 56 outer channel onto the 57 frame.
He now had a frame that had the correct configuration for his 56 car, and also had the factory 1956 VIN stamps as well. He went to a great deal of trouble to match the factory welds as closely as possible.
He made me promise never to tell this story. However, since both he, and the car are long gone, I feel safe in saying as much as I did.
I will not reveal the VIN of that 56, mainly because I cannot remember it
I recall a badly damaged 56 frame that a friend had many years ago. Car was hit hard in the front, and the front frame horns were twisted like pretzels.
My friend located a nice 57 frame, and then proceeded to make it a 56 frame. First he made the various mods to match the brackets, etc. on the original 56 frame.
Then he cut all of the welds on the driver's side outer channel, and removed that part from the 57 frame. This part of the frame is where the 57 VIN was stamped.
He removed the driver's side outer channel from the damaged 56 frame. This part had the VIN stamps for the 56. He repaired the damage to the 56 outer channel, using the 57 outer channel for dimensions. None of the repair work could be seen from the outside of the channel.
He then welded the repaired 56 outer channel onto the 57 frame.
He now had a frame that had the correct configuration for his 56 car, and also had the factory 1956 VIN stamps as well. He went to a great deal of trouble to match the factory welds as closely as possible.
He made me promise never to tell this story. However, since both he, and the car are long gone, I feel safe in saying as much as I did.
I will not reveal the VIN of that 56, mainly because I cannot remember it
So what you observed is virtually identical to what I also observed. And for all common sense issues, what the heck is wrong with that???????????
I saw a badly wrecked 57 returned to a 57 and you saw a badly wrecked 56 returned to a 56. The frames, VIN tags and titles still retained what ended up as what they were before being wrecked. Personally, it would seem to me that common sense should prevail in a repair such as this where NO malice is intended!
Tom Parsons
08-26-2010, 11:45 AM
#15
Hmmm This is getting interesting. What I have gathered so far is
1. that depending on the state if you have a titled 50-whatever car and turn it into a high-end restomod with a custom frame, that state could then force you to remove your original vin tag and attach a state issued tag with an assembled (or similar) title thus, in my opinion reducing the value of the car.
2. depending on the state, same scenario if you replaced your unusable frame with a frame from another car you could end up with an assigned vin. because the title doesn't match the replaced frame.
3. If you do a used frame swap on your legit titled/registered car and you sell it and the buyer has to get it inspected in a different state and the unmatched vins are discovered, you may have to buy it back or worse, get sued over it.
Is it considered to be more of a risk to lose your original vin by swapping frames in this day of age or because customizing old cars is common place that these cars aren't looked at that closely by the dmv or.... are they looked at even closer now a days because we live in a litigious society and people are looking for anything to get a free car out of.
or has the risk not changed over the years and you do a frame swap with a used frame and take your chances hoping that the dmv never has a reason to do an inspection of the frame (secondary vins).
I know that when it comes to vins, frames, cowls, body swaps and building/restoring hot rods there is alot of gray area and lots of different stories of this and that happened to this guy and so on.
Legality and practicality lots of times don't see eye to eye.
Thank's for everyones input so far.
1. that depending on the state if you have a titled 50-whatever car and turn it into a high-end restomod with a custom frame, that state could then force you to remove your original vin tag and attach a state issued tag with an assembled (or similar) title thus, in my opinion reducing the value of the car.
2. depending on the state, same scenario if you replaced your unusable frame with a frame from another car you could end up with an assigned vin. because the title doesn't match the replaced frame.
3. If you do a used frame swap on your legit titled/registered car and you sell it and the buyer has to get it inspected in a different state and the unmatched vins are discovered, you may have to buy it back or worse, get sued over it.
Is it considered to be more of a risk to lose your original vin by swapping frames in this day of age or because customizing old cars is common place that these cars aren't looked at that closely by the dmv or.... are they looked at even closer now a days because we live in a litigious society and people are looking for anything to get a free car out of.
or has the risk not changed over the years and you do a frame swap with a used frame and take your chances hoping that the dmv never has a reason to do an inspection of the frame (secondary vins).
I know that when it comes to vins, frames, cowls, body swaps and building/restoring hot rods there is alot of gray area and lots of different stories of this and that happened to this guy and so on.
Legality and practicality lots of times don't see eye to eye.
Thank's for everyones input so far.
08-26-2010, 11:53 AM
#16
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In my opinion look for a 59-60 frame since the rear end exhaust and bumper configuration is the same. The 60 frame should have the rear sway bar. You could install it if you like if you are not going for original appearance if you do happen to find a 60 frame.
The hard part would be to drill out the holes on the frame for the rear bumpers and installing the brackets for the exhaust if you end up using a 61/62 frame.
A michigan company does produce an aftermarket C1 frame using the same tooling equipment as GM used. It might be a good option for you.
How bad is the frame? You might be able to fix the problems.
The hard part would be to drill out the holes on the frame for the rear bumpers and installing the brackets for the exhaust if you end up using a 61/62 frame.
A michigan company does produce an aftermarket C1 frame using the same tooling equipment as GM used. It might be a good option for you.
How bad is the frame? You might be able to fix the problems.
08-27-2010, 09:11 AM
#17
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Ed,
So what you observed is virtually identical to what I also observed. And for all common sense issues, what the heck is wrong with that???????????
I saw a badly wrecked 57 returned to a 57 and you saw a badly wrecked 56 returned to a 56. The frames, VIN tags and titles still retained what ended up as what they were before being wrecked. Personally, it would seem to me that common sense should prevail in a repair such as this where NO malice is intended!
Tom Parsons
So what you observed is virtually identical to what I also observed. And for all common sense issues, what the heck is wrong with that???????????
I saw a badly wrecked 57 returned to a 57 and you saw a badly wrecked 56 returned to a 56. The frames, VIN tags and titles still retained what ended up as what they were before being wrecked. Personally, it would seem to me that common sense should prevail in a repair such as this where NO malice is intended!
Tom Parsons
As far as I am concerned, absolutely nothing wroing with either approach.
As an aside, my friend also repaired the inside channel of the 56 frame, welded the 57 channel to it, and sold the frame as a damaged but repairable 57 frame.
