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This may, or may not help. These are measurements on the wheels that Gary put on my car.
Grand Sport PSE Wheel Measurements
Front Wheel:
Width 9.850”
Outside to Flange 4.900”
Inside to Flange 4.950”
Rear Wheel:
Width 11.960”
Outside to Flange 5.040”
Inside to Flange 6.920”
======================================== ==
Wiz:
I didn't realize your wheels were 10 wide in front and 12 in rear. I thought PSA made them 8 inch in front and 10 in in rear?
Do you have any fitment problems?
Are yours 17 inch?
BTW: with these cars weighing 2000 - 2600 lbs. Do they really need bigger than the stock size C4 brakes?
It doesn't seem there would be much positive by putting the gigantic F/R brakes on these cars, to only increase your unsprung mass, and the extra rotational mass, to have to deal with.
Has anyone compared getting away with the smaller brakes for all the performance enhancements they could possibly bring along with them?
Plus you could run a proper 15 inch wheel.
Sorry been gone so long, been getting out of one hellacious mess.
I didn't realize your wheels were 10 wide in front and 12 in rear. I thought PSA made them 8 inch in front and 10 in in rear?
Welcome back, Ty.
The 15" GS replica wheels are, indeed, 8" wide and 10" wide, as you noted.
BTW: with these cars weighing 2000 - 2600 lbs. Do they really need bigger than the stock size C4 brakes?
It doesn't seem there would be much positive by putting the gigantic F/R brakes on these cars, to only increase your unsprung mass, and the extra rotational mass, to have to deal with.
Has anyone compared getting away with the smaller brakes for all the performance enhancements they could possibly bring along with them?
Plus you could run a proper 15 inch wheel.
It all depends on how you drive the car.
For street-only driving, the stock C4 brakes are perfectly adequate. For track driving, you really, really want something better.
Once (and only once) I drove our D&D prototype at Laguna Seca when it still had the stock, early C4 rotors and calipers. I over-heated them and the brake pedal went to the floor...... a truly disturbing feeling.
Thankfully, the brakes gave me some warning. Slowing for the last turn on the last lap of a session, the pedal felt "funny" (but not ha-ha funny). The pedal went to the floor on the 1st turn of the cool down lap, by which time I was going pretty slowly any way.
I immediately set about designing the replacement brake system which employs modified Cadillac rotors and C5 calipers. The Cadillac rotors are wider than the C4 rotors and have more cooling vanes. And everything fits inside the 15" GS replica wheels.
This is the 2-Piston caliper. Nothing special. I've been using Wilwood pads and fluid the past few years and have never had an issue. Keep in mind that with a GS replica the weight and balance is different from a stock C4. Your brake balance may be out of synch - i.e. too much front brake.
If you have the temps you can work with the brake companies to find the best pad. You may want the more aggressive pad in the rear. Your temperatures will give you an idea regarding the balance.
I've got an article coming out in Vintage Motorsport on all of this.
The 13" x 1" rotor and matching calipers make for a very capable brake system on Grand Sports which are tracked. Their use requires a wheel size larger than 15", however.
When 15" wheels are used, the later C4 12" x .8" rotor and matching caliper will just barely fit (some filing of the caliper fins is required). This is a fine system for street use. The rotors have only 32 cooling vanes and, being .8" wide, have narrow air channels. I wouldn't recommend this brake system for serious track use.
For reference, the brake system I developed uses 11.6" x 1.25" rotors which have 64 cooling vanes and wide air channels. The 11.6" rotor diameter was necessary to get the C5 calipers stuffed up inside the 15" wheels I use.
What can you guys tell me about the D&D car I just purchase?
I have owed a few C2 but this is my first GS. Thanks in advance!
Congratulations on the GS purchase and welcome to the "club" (so to speak). You've got a neat car.
About all I can tell you from your two pictures is that your D&D has one of the highest serial numbered VINs, likely making it one of the last cars Dean built.
How about posting more pictures and filling in what you know of the history of the car.
D&D cars underwent many, many changes through their storied production run. You might post pictures of the frame, suspension, steering, etc. as these features were a constant work in progress.
What can you guys tell me about the D&D car I just purchase?
I have owed a few C2 but this is my first GS. Thanks in advance!
Welcome. There's lots to say and the best way is to look and compare your car to others and ask questions. Jim is the expert. I have just updated "My Garage" photos. My D&D was built by Autoworks in '97 and has since been significantly upgraded in the last 14 years. The parts were purchased individually and there are no serial numbers.
The 15" GS replica wheels are, indeed, 8" wide and 10" wide, as you noted.
It all depends on how you drive the car.
For street-only driving, the stock C4 brakes are perfectly adequate. For track driving, you really, really want something better.
Once (and only once) I drove our D&D prototype at Laguna Seca when it still had the stock, early C4 rotors and calipers. I over-heated them and the brake pedal went to the floor...... a truly disturbing feeling.
Thankfully, the brakes gave me some warning. Slowing for the last turn on the last lap of a session, the pedal felt "funny" (but not ha-ha funny). The pedal went to the floor on the 1st turn of the cool down lap, by which time I was going pretty slowly any way.
I immediately set about designing the replacement brake system which employs modified Cadillac rotors and C5 calipers. The Cadillac rotors are wider than the C4 rotors and have more cooling vanes. And everything fits inside the 15" GS replica wheels.
Never had another brake issue.
Jim, I have been looking at Larry's 17" wheels and found the hubs to be different than mine. Yours look even different than ours.
Your KO adapters look like the Trigo adapters. I believe these are still in production, but maybe not under the Trigo name.
Larry's adapters bear a vague similarity to the older Halibrand adapters available in the '90s. Some of these were cross drilled at the outboard end of the threads for a safety pin locking device (NOT like the insane pins often found on repop C2 KO adapters, tho).
My adapters are my own creation. I designed them such that, once the wheel and spinner are installed, the appearance mimics that of the original Grand Sports.
The adapters themselves look like this:
The threads are 2-5/8 x 8, same as on original Grand Sports and I use original, steel Halibrand spinners from the Culver City era.
Installed, this is how they look:
How well do they imitate the look of the originals? Here is a wheel on #004:
The GS is currently in route to my residence, purchased in FL shipping to CO. When I get it here I will get it up on the lift and get suspension and steering pictures.
I've got records on 21 D&D Grand Sports and none of them have been so modified.
For Mid-America Grand Sports, it would be a major undertaking to build a door panel with that recess. I doubt anyone has gone to the trouble.
I have little information on Gary's Mongoose Grand Sports, so I can't offer any information about them.
Jim
Jim the Mongoose GS is based on the old D&D molds . I have never seen a Mongoose with the door cutouts. In fact I do not remember seeing them on chassis 3,4 and 5 when I sat in them back in 1964 but then I was so excited to do so that I probably would not remember that small a detail. It's like the small box like structure over the wheelhouses on the rear to accommodate the rear brake cooling ducts. My D&D 0049 has them but my Mongoose does not. ---- Ken
03-17-2016, 08:15 AM
