jim lockwood

Kingliness is relative.

The Grand Sports never received anything like the level of development and engineering support they needed to be competitive overall. That's why history shows they didn't win major races.

However, at Nassau Speed Weeks in December '63, a kind of "run whacha brung" event, the Grand Sports did receive significant, if clandestine, support from Duntov et al. (See my earlier posting about a Mr. Leonard Dunlevy.).

According to Shelby's own historian and team photographer, Dave Friedman, at that event the Grand Sports were 11 seconds PER LAP faster than the Cobras.

That's regal, if you ask me.

Not directly. Shelby's answer was the "flip top" Cobra which he brought to Nassau the following year. Powered by an aluminum 390, and significantly lightened, it ran off from the (then-unsupported) Grand Sports for as long as it held together.


Often.

Jim

keystonefarm

Have a detail question about the Penske 001 car. Any idea what color the area around the headlights is painted ? Looks like silver to me in some pictures and flat black in others. My memory from 1966 is failing me !!!
------------------- Ken McCorry

TheSaint

How is a GS on a original frame? Is that usually done?

If i would try to build one the GS have to sit on a original C2 frame with papers and i suppose the suspension and drivetrain have to be original to.

This is because of the strict rules to get plates on a car like that here in Norway. Doing it like this cant guarantee plates eithere.

groovyjay

You guys have the same rules and regulations as we do. That's why I'm stuck with stock frame. There's plenty of ways to improve the stock suspension (I have 5-link with coil overs, rack n pinion etc). Not a problem...

TheSaint

groovyjay Is your GS a Moongoose car?

I just visited finnsharks but i could not understand a word

groovyjay

My car is from Mid America, it uses stock birdcage and frame. Try my website for more common language...

www.c3-r.com

JohnZ

#001 was originally silver, then blue, then white and blue, then red after the Buxbaum restoration, then went back to blue during the early 90's restoration, and remains that way today, with the headlight recesses painted silver. Photos below from Monterey 2002 and the Bloomington Gold Special Collection.

keystonefarm

Thanks John, one more thing to check off the list !! ----- Ken

groovyjay

Any idea who did the restoration on the 001?

JohnZ

As I recall, the last (blue) restoration was done by Jim Purvis before it was sold to Gene Schiavone in 1993.

groovyjay

How does one identify different replicas from each other? There are few big names that all have some unique features, here's some to show you the differences. Please feel free to add any more you might know.

Hoods:

* MAI hoods are made with sharp corners like stock C2 hoods where as Mongoose and D&D have rounded hood corners like they have on original Grand Sports.

Here's couple of shots:


MAI hood, notice the sharp hood corners.



Mongoose car with rounded hood corners. This is similar to what the originals have.

Rear side vents:

D&D, Mongoose and stock GS have the rear side vents tilted a lot more than the MAI cars which side vents are a almost vertical.



See how the rear side wents on this D&D car are slightly tilted, just like the originals are.



This a MAI car, see how vertical the vents are.

Front side vents:

The side vents behing the front wheels are also bit different between the different manufacturers. Once again D&D and Mongoose got their design closer to the originals.



This is a MAI style side vent with the spear shaped design in the side vents. This particular car has the rounded hood design so I'm not sure which one this is.



Here's JohnZ's old car (D&D) with the correct style vent grilles.

Trunk Hinges:

MAI cars have square recessed shapes for square hinges where as the D&D and Mongoose cars have triangular hinges like the originals. (couldn't find good pics.)

Rear flares:

This is something I'm not sure of, so I'm asking the audience about this one. Did the D&D cars come with full flares vs the cut off design that mongoose has and the originals. I know all MAI cars use this design:



But many have been modified during the build to (like mine) look like the originals. All mongoose cars are shaped like the originals, but not sure if old D&D cars had these flares or not.

MAI cars are all build around stock birdcage, others are not, mongoose cars have unique metal structure under the dash.

What else?

These cars are all individuals and show some personal touches here and there, but these should give you few pointers next time you ran into one and speculate who made the kit.

keystonefarm

My D&D 049 car has the cutoff or original style rear flares. Every D&D I've seen has the cutoff style. ---------- Ken

groovyjay

Thanks Ken, seems like all D&D cars have the cut off style and it's just the MAI cars with the full fenders.

jim lockwood

Generalizations are always dangerous. That said, here are my observations:


All Mongoose and D&D cars have the cut off rear flares.

If you see a car with full rear flares, it is always an MAI car. However many MAI cars, mine included, have cut off flares.


All Mongoose and D&D cars have rounded hood corners.

Not all MAI cars have the pointy corners. Jeff is well aware of the "correct" rounded corners and will provide them on request. My MAI has the rounded corners.


All Mongoose and D&D have the full length side grill openings in the front fenders.

Any GS with the short openings and the billet aluminum grill bars is an MAI car.

Some MAI cars (like mine) have correct side grill bars; these are owner modifications, not a Jeff option.


All MAI cars have "peaked" headlight covers.

Early D&D cars have peaked covers. Sometime prior to the construction of Ken's #049 car, the molds were changed to the correct non-peaked covers.

I believe all Mongeese have the non-peaked covers.


All D&D and Mongeese have fabricated doors with hard fiberglass inner panels.

All MAI cars have (heavy) stock Sting Ray doors with a clip-on/screw-on inner door panel that varies by owner preference.


Lots of differences as one can see. These ought to help someone figure out if they are looking at a Mongoose/D&D or MAI car.

Jim

Dan Hampton

The Grand Sports, when raced at Nassua, never ran against Shelby's FIA Coupes. They were world beaters that could run 190+ with the 289 and summarily whipped Ferrari in '65, and would have in '64 had Enzo Ferrari not been successful in pulling the Monza race off the schedule at the last minute, knowing full well that he was toast.

The Flip Top, CSX 2196, was the 427 prototype, which is currently owned by good friend Rich Mason, who also owns the Corvette SR2 and did some yeoman work at Nassau for Shelby.

The 427 Cobra was never the car that the 289 was. The Factory never campaigned the 427 domestically or in any FIA event. The 289 set all the records (Worlds Manufacturers Cup, Bonneville (22 land speed records). The mystic and exalted status of the Shelby Cobras rest solely with the SB platform.

jackhays

My dad took me the Green Valley, Texas back in the day as we wre Corvette enthusist to see the Grand Sports run against Shelby's King Cobra, etc.
I stl have black and white home movies of the race and practice.
Delmo twisted a rear axle on his car and went to his Dallas dealership and removed a stock axle in order to race on Sunday, for a little while.
A couple of years later my dad bought me a 63 and then 65 Vette on August 24, 1967 with 3,120 miles that I still own.
My friends and I finished a complete restoration about three years ago and I took my dad for a ride a couple of minths before he died.
Such memories we had to share and I will keep Vettzilla until I pass her on to my daughter.
I would travel some distance to see on eof the originals now if I knew and when.
Peace.

sub006

Aren't the original Grand Sports slightly smaller overall than a stock Sting Ray, perhaps for aerodynamic and weight reasons?

Or do stock C2 panels, though thicker, "match up"? A coupe door, for example, in the GS opening?

TheSaint

If you ask Moongoose do they deliver the car without cutoff style rear flares? Also the front spoiler can you get that from all of the GS makers?

keystonefarm

I'll be ordering my Mongoose GS in the next two weeks . I'll let you know. I believe all the Mongoose cars come from the molds with the cutoff flares. Not sure about the front spoiler. I know that Mongoose offers one. I will have one on mine as I noticed the difference years ago when I installed one on my 66 that I ran in SCCA. Makes a great place to pick up air for front brake cooling and helps keep the front end down over 150 mph. One thing I learned about the D&D cars is that Dean replicated the bump inside the rear compartment where the originals had the cooling duct for the rear brakes. I never noticed that before. ----------- Ken

groovyjay

Thanks Jim for the extra information, didn't know about the round corners on MAI cars as well.

So based on what we have learned above this is a MAI car?:



Round hood corners, but still uses stock hood latches...



Another MAI car feature is the door handles, I don't know where they come from (what car?) but Mongoose seems to use stock Corvette handles. Flares on this car have been cut off.



Stock firewall and most of all it has the MAI style brakebooster/mc re-locator piece.



And the front side openings are true MAI style with the separate spears instead of grilles.