ready to take a sledge hammer to a 1959 283
08-12-2011, 07:02 AM
#81
Race Director
Bad Grounds
Go take them off and re-attach them,...it may look good and even deliver 12 volts at first but I believe that the engine is trying to find a ground through these possible sources....brake lines, emergency cable, or fuel line and cannot carry enough voltage to crank and start.....just spin slowly......its generally missed because the lites work and radio plays....that is not a test nor the engine has a bearing problem.....1/2 the junks in Detroit rattle as they proceed down the street after they are running and used every day except when it finally blows....they just go and car jack a different one.............grounds first all the rest when that is firmly out of the way.......OK
08-12-2011, 08:58 AM
#82
Safety Car
Obviously its an internal problem.
B12
You gotta take B12.
Go to the nearest convenience store. You know.....the ones owned and operated by furriners, usually towel heads. Indians, Paks, A-rabs, Rooskies. Around these here parts they're called: 7-Eleven, Wa Wa, Quik Check and other catchy names. Got it? OK. Next, pick ya up some of that there instant 5 hour energy stuff. If yer standing near the cashier with the red dot or towel on their head, look down and slightly to the right. It's usually right next to them there Slim Jims or peanut butter cheese crackers. See it! Yellow/black/orange plastic shot bottles. Don't read the ingredients. Slug it down, get yer *** home and try pullin' on that there flywheel again. In fact, after yer done with the tin lizzie you'll have enough residual energy to give the wifey and/or girlfriend a good tossin' in the hay, if ya know what I mean. Who needs Viagra. Right? Anyway....................doesn't matter how tight it is (back to the car, ya dope, not the fornicating stuff
). If you can move it by hand, that's enough. Right? Look at all the posts here sayin' so.
After ya do that, get ya a torque wrench, put it on one of the main pulley bolts and read the torque required to break loose (start motion). That torque will be a LOT more than that required to SUSTAIN motion. It has something to do with hydrostatic boundary forces in the lubrication layer on all the caps/shells. Dunno.
Don't forget to take into account that the torque wrench aint' gonna be accurate because its torque arm is longer, by the radial distance that the pulley bolt is from the centerline of the crank snout. But...........just fer fun (
) ya oughtta try it.
If you pull the pan and find a damaged bearing (check them all, including the throws), then I would strongly consider replacing them without a complete tear down ONLY if the journals appear undamaged. Any blue journals and the crank is garbage. You can polish any that look questionable with crocus cloth. Nothing any more coarse than that. Remember that the microsurface irregularities remaining on them must point in the direction of rotation. When dressing the surfaces with crocus cloth, be sure to rub IN THE DIRECTION OF ROTATION, and not opposite. You may even strop them with a piece of Corinthian leatherrre if you want to.
B12
You gotta take B12.
Go to the nearest convenience store. You know.....the ones owned and operated by furriners, usually towel heads. Indians, Paks, A-rabs, Rooskies. Around these here parts they're called: 7-Eleven, Wa Wa, Quik Check and other catchy names. Got it? OK. Next, pick ya up some of that there instant 5 hour energy stuff. If yer standing near the cashier with the red dot or towel on their head, look down and slightly to the right. It's usually right next to them there Slim Jims or peanut butter cheese crackers. See it! Yellow/black/orange plastic shot bottles. Don't read the ingredients. Slug it down, get yer *** home and try pullin' on that there flywheel again. In fact, after yer done with the tin lizzie you'll have enough residual energy to give the wifey and/or girlfriend a good tossin' in the hay, if ya know what I mean. Who needs Viagra. Right? Anyway....................doesn't matter how tight it is (back to the car, ya dope, not the fornicating stuff
). If you can move it by hand, that's enough. Right? Look at all the posts here sayin' so. After ya do that, get ya a torque wrench, put it on one of the main pulley bolts and read the torque required to break loose (start motion). That torque will be a LOT more than that required to SUSTAIN motion. It has something to do with hydrostatic boundary forces in the lubrication layer on all the caps/shells. Dunno.
Don't forget to take into account that the torque wrench aint' gonna be accurate because its torque arm is longer, by the radial distance that the pulley bolt is from the centerline of the crank snout. But...........just fer fun () ya oughtta try it.If you pull the pan and find a damaged bearing (check them all, including the throws), then I would strongly consider replacing them without a complete tear down ONLY if the journals appear undamaged. Any blue journals and the crank is garbage. You can polish any that look questionable with crocus cloth. Nothing any more coarse than that. Remember that the microsurface irregularities remaining on them must point in the direction of rotation. When dressing the surfaces with crocus cloth, be sure to rub IN THE DIRECTION OF ROTATION, and not opposite. You may even strop them with a piece of Corinthian leatherrre if you want to.
Last edited by 65tripleblack; 08-12-2011 at 09:15 AM.
08-12-2011, 09:08 AM
#83
Le Mans Master
Obviously its an internal problem.
B12
You gotta take B12.
Go to the nearest convenience store. You know.....the ones owned and operated by furriners, usually towel heads. Indians, Paks, A-rabs, Rooskies. Around these here parts they're called: 7-Eleven, Wa Wa, Quik Check and other catchy names. Got it? OK. Next, pick ya up some of that there instant 5 hour energy stuff. If yer standing near the cashier with the red dot or towel on their head, look down and slightly to the right. It's usually right next to them there Slim Jims or peanut butter cheese crackers. See it! Yellow/black/orange plastic shot bottles. Don't read the ingredients. Slug it down, get yer *** home and try pullin' on that there flywheel again. In fact, after yer done with the tin lizzie you'll have enough residual energy to give the wifey and/or girlfriend a good tossin' in the hay, if ya know what I mean. Who needs Viagra. Right? Anyway....................doesn't matter how tight it it (back to the car, ya dope, not the girl stuff). If you can move it by hand, that's enough. Right? Look at all the posts here sayin' so.
After ya do that, get ya a torque wrench, put it on one of the main pulley bolts and read the torque required to break loose (start motion). That torque will be a LOT more than that required to SUSTAIN motion. It has something to do with hydrostatic boundary forces in the lubrication layer on all the caps/shells. Dunno. Don't forget to take into account that the torque wrench aint' gonna be accurate because its torque arm is longer, by the radial distance that the pulley bolt is from the centerline of the crank snout. But...........just fer fun () ya oughtta try it.
If you pull the pan and find a damaged bearing (check them all, including the throws), then I would strongly consider replacing them ONLY if the journals appear undamaged. You can polish any that look questionable with crocus cloth. Nothing any more coarse than that. Remember that the microsurface irregularities remaining on them must point in the direction of rotation. When dressing the surfaces with crocus cloth, be sure to rub IN THE DIRECTION OF ROTATION, and not opposite. You may even strop them with a piece of Corinthian leatherrre if you want to.
B12
You gotta take B12.
Go to the nearest convenience store. You know.....the ones owned and operated by furriners, usually towel heads. Indians, Paks, A-rabs, Rooskies. Around these here parts they're called: 7-Eleven, Wa Wa, Quik Check and other catchy names. Got it? OK. Next, pick ya up some of that there instant 5 hour energy stuff. If yer standing near the cashier with the red dot or towel on their head, look down and slightly to the right. It's usually right next to them there Slim Jims or peanut butter cheese crackers. See it! Yellow/black/orange plastic shot bottles. Don't read the ingredients. Slug it down, get yer *** home and try pullin' on that there flywheel again. In fact, after yer done with the tin lizzie you'll have enough residual energy to give the wifey and/or girlfriend a good tossin' in the hay, if ya know what I mean. Who needs Viagra. Right? Anyway....................doesn't matter how tight it it (back to the car, ya dope, not the girl stuff). If you can move it by hand, that's enough. Right? Look at all the posts here sayin' so.
After ya do that, get ya a torque wrench, put it on one of the main pulley bolts and read the torque required to break loose (start motion). That torque will be a LOT more than that required to SUSTAIN motion. It has something to do with hydrostatic boundary forces in the lubrication layer on all the caps/shells. Dunno.
Don't forget to take into account that the torque wrench aint' gonna be accurate because its torque arm is longer, by the radial distance that the pulley bolt is from the centerline of the crank snout. But...........just fer fun () ya oughtta try it.If you pull the pan and find a damaged bearing (check them all, including the throws), then I would strongly consider replacing them ONLY if the journals appear undamaged. You can polish any that look questionable with crocus cloth. Nothing any more coarse than that. Remember that the microsurface irregularities remaining on them must point in the direction of rotation. When dressing the surfaces with crocus cloth, be sure to rub IN THE DIRECTION OF ROTATION, and not opposite. You may even strop them with a piece of Corinthian leatherrre if you want to.
Made my morning!!!
08-28-2011, 01:37 AM
#84
Le Mans Master
I never saw the resolution on this problem
From what I see, you started it a few times for only a few seconds, then it doesn't turn hardly at all.
You pulled the plugs, and it still turns hard.
On a new engine, especially with a new cam, you need to have it all ready to run, timing light, etc, so when it fires, bring it to 2000 - 2500 rpm, set total timing to around 30 degrees, check for oil and coolant leaks, ensure oil pressure is running a steady 30 psi or more depending on the pump, and hold it at that speed for about 20 minutes to break in the cam. Only shut it off if you have to, like gas pouring out of the carb, or oil pressure drops to 5 psi, or something bad.
Starting and stopping after 30 seconds only wipes the moly lube off the cam and means you may have wiped a cam lobe, dumping a ton of metal into the oil.
You also, but doubtful in such a short time, clogged the filter with all the moly lube, and be bypassing right into the bearings.
But save all this for the next engine.
Now it sounds like a bearing has spun.
Run the engine back to TDC, pull the distributor, put in an oil pump primer, prime the oil system for 5 minutes with at least 20 psi.
Now see if the engine is still hard to turn by hand. You may have just wiped all the oil out of the bearings with such short run times and on a new engine, there wasn't enough residual oil to float the bearings.
If it is still hard to turn by hand, it is time to take the engine back out. You aren't going to pull it apart in the car, so just pull it back out and it is easier to rebuild the bottom end again.
If you spun a bearing, you will have to have the rods resized, crank turned or polished, and everything rebalanced.
Let us know what you found.
You pulled the plugs, and it still turns hard.
On a new engine, especially with a new cam, you need to have it all ready to run, timing light, etc, so when it fires, bring it to 2000 - 2500 rpm, set total timing to around 30 degrees, check for oil and coolant leaks, ensure oil pressure is running a steady 30 psi or more depending on the pump, and hold it at that speed for about 20 minutes to break in the cam. Only shut it off if you have to, like gas pouring out of the carb, or oil pressure drops to 5 psi, or something bad.
Starting and stopping after 30 seconds only wipes the moly lube off the cam and means you may have wiped a cam lobe, dumping a ton of metal into the oil.
You also, but doubtful in such a short time, clogged the filter with all the moly lube, and be bypassing right into the bearings.
But save all this for the next engine.
Now it sounds like a bearing has spun.
Run the engine back to TDC, pull the distributor, put in an oil pump primer, prime the oil system for 5 minutes with at least 20 psi.
Now see if the engine is still hard to turn by hand. You may have just wiped all the oil out of the bearings with such short run times and on a new engine, there wasn't enough residual oil to float the bearings.
If it is still hard to turn by hand, it is time to take the engine back out. You aren't going to pull it apart in the car, so just pull it back out and it is easier to rebuild the bottom end again.
If you spun a bearing, you will have to have the rods resized, crank turned or polished, and everything rebalanced.
Let us know what you found.
08-28-2011, 09:35 AM
#85
Will the starter spin the engine with the plugs out? If so, put a timing light on it and see if you are in the ballpark. When you get the timing right, put the plugs back in and make sure you get the wires where they are suppose to be.
If it still will not fire up, push it out of the garage and tie a rope on that puppy and pull it down the road about 20 mph. With the ignition switch on, dump the clutch in 2nd gear and light it off the old school way.
tc
If it still will not fire up, push it out of the garage and tie a rope on that puppy and pull it down the road about 20 mph. With the ignition switch on, dump the clutch in 2nd gear and light it off the old school way.
tc
Not sure I would want to do that. Just my opinion.
1) pull plugs make sure the engine is free to turn as mentioned here.
2) put some oil in each cylinder while plugs are out and then crank with starter. See if it seems to free the engine up and the starter runs the engine faster. if so you may have some oil pump issues and oil is not getting to the top of the engine.
3) to protect the bearings. Run an oil pump primer to protect all the bearings. I used to cut the bottom off of distributor braise a rod to it and connected it to my drill. I am sure there are more modern ways now (I am dating myself) but thats the way I used to do it.
4) Get the engine free turning no matter what, as others have mentioned. That is imperative and not worth proceeding until you are confident its turning freely.
5) Its not a heat related issue because he cannot get the engine running. So what could it be? Well it could be the wrong rings were installed or the wrong size lower bearings creating friction or lower bearings were over torgued?
6)Lets suppose the engine is too tight, and he has two problems. Lets suppose he also has timing incorrect or plug wires incorrectly hooked up? Pulling a car at 20mph and dumping the clutch would not be a good idea. Especially on a rebuild.
7) Once you have oil in all the galleries, then go over the firing order and make sure the car is correctly set up.
8) While the plugs are out, rotate the crank so number one is at TDC and set your timing as close as you can via "eyeball".
9) lastly check your plugs. Make sure the gaps are correct and they are the right plugs for the engine. I have seen the wrong pistons, wrong rings for the bore and a poor 45 degree crosshatch result in a tight engine that when a start was attempted, the pistons hit the incorrect spark plugs and closed the gap.
10) this is stupid but assuming he is a poor builder, what if he has not set up the rocker arms at all? If the intake and exhaust values are not opening all your starter is doing is fighting permanent compression and vaccuum? I realize some of these things are stupid, but I have seen stupid, real stupid.
11) send it back to the builder if you are still having issues.If you attempt to do anything more then this, he will just accuse you of screwing up your own engine. So will null any warranty if you have one.
I would never pull a new rebuild and dump the clutch. Only because you have no idea whether the rebuilder did a good job or not. This does not sound like a good job?
Last edited by TC233; 08-28-2011 at 09:55 AM.
08-28-2011, 09:28 PM
#86
Drifting
You will quickly know if pulling the engine is required with either outcome.
tc
08-29-2011, 12:36 AM
#87
Burning Brakes
He did enough right to get it running. If it had an internal problems, forcing it by rolling it and letting the clutch out would be like using a bigger hammer.
1. Rule out electical and starter.
2. Drain the oil and see what you get.
3. remove the valve covers and start eliminating valve and push rod problems.
4. If you can't turn it easy with push rods and spark plugs out something is siezed or broken.
Still curious if you had oil pressure.
Larry
1. Rule out electical and starter.
2. Drain the oil and see what you get.
3. remove the valve covers and start eliminating valve and push rod problems.
4. If you can't turn it easy with push rods and spark plugs out something is siezed or broken.
Still curious if you had oil pressure.
Larry
09-11-2012, 10:46 PM
#88
I know how frustrating it is and how hard it is to just bite the bullet and rip it back apart.
Never did hear about oil pressure...
If you want the easy answer, 3 times, 30 seconds each and essentially now locked up? No oil pressure. Assembly lube or assembly oil lasted 90 seconds. You wiped bearings.
Eliminate valve spring pressure, crank it by hand, compare what it takes to crank it to what it took assembling it (which hopefully was easy). If it turns harder, yank the pan and look at a couple rod bearings. I'm thinking you're not gonna like what you see real early. Yank the motor and figure out what happened. Again, guessing you had no oil pressure.
let us know,
Dan
Never did hear about oil pressure...
If you want the easy answer, 3 times, 30 seconds each and essentially now locked up? No oil pressure. Assembly lube or assembly oil lasted 90 seconds. You wiped bearings.
Eliminate valve spring pressure, crank it by hand, compare what it takes to crank it to what it took assembling it (which hopefully was easy). If it turns harder, yank the pan and look at a couple rod bearings. I'm thinking you're not gonna like what you see real early. Yank the motor and figure out what happened. Again, guessing you had no oil pressure.
let us know,
Dan
09-12-2012, 12:07 AM
#89
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