CP64365

I sent a email to the Sheetz company. Here in PA and some neighboring states, Sheetz is a large convenient store company that sells gas. I asked them if they would be able to offer at least on gas pump in the area that sold non-ethanol gas. Copied are responses I got from the company.

"I understand your comments and concerns regarding ethanol.

As you likely know, due to the EPA’s Renewable Fuels program and related subsidies; for better or worse, ethanol is now a part of America’s fuel mix.

We would love to be able to offer you pure conventional gasoline; however, there are a number of factors preventing us from doing so:

The majority of gasoline now entering the state is an 83 octane blendstock that requires ethanol to be added to make a saleable 87 octane product
Brining in segregated batches or importing pure conventional gasoline would raise the cost of the finished product; as would not receiving the 4.5 cent per gallon ethanol subsidy. This would result in a product that is significantly more expensive than the 10% blend we are currently offering. While some customers like yourself may be willing to pay extra to get pure gasoline, most would not.
Since we do not have the tankage to offer both products in many locations, we would have to choose one or the other."

I then asked how the 89 and 92 octane gases were made:

"Finished premium is created using a variety of blend ratios, depending on the area.

In PA, we use a 91 octane product, mixed with 10% ethanol (which increases octane above 92) as well as the 83 octane product (to bring the octane back down to 92 or 93)


Pure 93 octane premium is still being shipped on some southern pipelines (NC, VA, MD), but due to the second two bullet points below, ethanol is still added (taking the octane way up), then even more of the 83 octane product is mixed in to bring it back down to 92 or 93 octane."

Mike Ward

Nice to see that a company will give an honest and complete answer. Also shoots down a lot myths.

MikeM

That is the way it is done in my area too, Mikey.

Mike Ward

Up here too Mike. I suspect most of the continent does it the same way. I wonder how the SW PA will spin this into a conspiracy theory?

mrtexas

One thing not mentioned is much of PA and most of New England gasoline would originate in Texas and be delivered by pipeline. Most gasoline in pipeline is fungible meaning if you buy Exxon gasoline it might have been made by Shell.

Mike Ward

Also not mentioned is that a large portion of the crude oil or finished gas might be originally from Canada- not that it's relevant.

JohnZ

That's correct - most raw gasoline blendstock is simply a basic commercial commodity; any brand-specific additives (and the ethanol) are added at the wholesale terminal when the truck is loaded for retail delivery.

MikeM

I am letting out line as we speak.

rustylugnuts

I buy most of what is said, but doesn't it cost more to produce our corn based ethanol, so why should it cost more to leave it out? I know they say it increases octane, that is also untrue ethanol was used in the late seventies "BP" and everyone who ran this crap gave up performance and had to get use to the pinging under acceleration, not to mention shutting your engine off in drive so it will stop pre-igniting... so much for the increased octane. But now we have cleaner air to breathe!

I just believe life is about large corporations in general giving us loads of BS, and we have to sift through it to find the truth. In this case patronize the tree huggers and very few will challenge, “We all need to go Green” so the majority agrees, give's up and become followers.

I just don’t buy it all, my two cents.

rustylugnuts

MikeM

Didn't take long and didn't have to go to the SW corner of Pa. Looks like we have a live one on the line right here.

See post #9!

JohnZ

You can thank your U.S. Senators and Representatives for ethanol; the "Renewable Resources Act" of 2007 (or thereabouts) mandates as Federal Law that umptygazillion gallons of ethanol be produced domestically and added to gasoline in order to "reduce our dependence on foreign oil", and the ethanol gallonage number ratchets up each year.

The only corporations that benefit are the agribusiness corn growers and ethanol producers (Archer-Daniels-Midland and others), thanks only to the generous ethanol subsidies. It's a huge PITA for the oil company wholesale and retail distribution systems, and they've never supported it.

Mike Ward

I saw that

Amazing how some people can combine so many myths and misunderstandings all in one post.

Psst! Note to lustyrugputz only: ethanol is 100 octane. Go look it up.

1snake

Actually, 100% ethanol is approx. 109 RON octane.

Jim

rustylugnuts

Check online below to see what adjustments you need to run your classic with ethanol.

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Ethanoluse.htm

Oh... and Ethanol has less energy than gasoline. Gasoline has 117600 BTU per gallon, ethanol 67000 BTU per gallon. A mixture of 10% of ethanol with gasoline would make the BTU’s much less efficient than just using 100% gasoline....

rustylugnuts

Mike Ward

Yes, you're right- the 100 I quoted is AKI (anti-knock index) to give the number comparable to today's pump gas which is 87-93 AKI.

Mike Ward

Yes, that's common knowledge that's been discussed many times before. You just found out?

I'm not sure I'd take everything to heart on that website. Here's a quote:

"For some unknown to me reason, possibly the different octanes (different burn rates) of gasoline and ethanol; the end result is less than the empirical formula would predict. That is, the use of E-10 basically cuts fuel mileage by about 10 percent rather than the 4 percent that would be predicted by the empirical formula."

Two fundamental errors:

1) octane rating has nothing to do with 'burn rate' it's purely a measure of resistance to spontaneous combustion.

2) octane rating has nothing to do with BTU content or potential mileage of a given fuel.

I know a guy that works on fuel injection units that doesn't have a clue either. Maybe they should team up?

MikeM

I would think a better phrase would be somewhat less efficient or maybe 2-4% less efficient.

rustylugnuts

I don't see any errors, I totally agree with (1) & (2).

rustylugnuts

GCD1962

A lot gas in N.E. & Northeast is from Europe, made from Brent crude which is one reason gas is still so high here ($4.25 gallon regular is common in CT areas)

jerrymcb

The federal government has a 50 cents per gallon subsidy on ethanol. 10 percent in a gallon of gas is 5 cents per gallon.