Question about my 66 NOM
04-29-2012, 12:59 PM
#21
Team Owner
Member Since: Oct 2000
Location: Washington Michigan
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Check this out, I can shed some light on this for you. The VIN on the frame is only a partial number. It is the last letter (for convertible or coupe) and the 6 numbers (the serial number) of your car but it is NOT the VIN in it's entirety, just the back half. Having said that, it means there is no way to say if it came from a stolen car or not. Completely impossible! To do what they did, they would have to be able to say that frame is out of a C2 which would narrown it to 63-67. Without the entire VIN, they could never definitively say it was a certain year or they would have to run each and every year.
The VIN derivative stamped on the frame isn't the primary legal identifier for the car anyway - the primary identifier is the manufacturer's VIN plate riveted ('65-'67) or welded ('63-'64) to the crossbrace below the glove box. Frame changes on 50-year-old cars are pretty common due to corrosion.
04-29-2012, 01:29 PM
#22
Instructor
Thread Starter
Nope. That's partially true for '63-'64, where the VIN derivative on the frame was just "S" (for St. Louis) followed by the last six digits of the car's VIN, but it changed in '65, when the model year digit was added prior to the "S" and the last six digits of the VIN. As a result, from '65-'67, the VIN derivative on the frame can be easily tied to one specific car within a model year. Even 63's and 64's can be tied to a model year, as there were significant differences in the frame between '63 and '64; law enforcement probably wouldn't know that, as all they know from what was supplied to them by GM and the FBI is where the VIN derivative is stamped and its format.
The VIN derivative stamped on the frame isn't the primary legal identifier for the car anyway - the primary identifier is the manufacturer's VIN plate riveted ('65-'67) or welded ('63-'64) to the crossbrace below the glove box. Frame changes on 50-year-old cars are pretty common due to corrosion.
The VIN derivative stamped on the frame isn't the primary legal identifier for the car anyway - the primary identifier is the manufacturer's VIN plate riveted ('65-'67) or welded ('63-'64) to the crossbrace below the glove box. Frame changes on 50-year-old cars are pretty common due to corrosion.
04-29-2012, 01:29 PM
#23
Instructor
That's interesting information about the later years. Mine is 64 so I assumed it was same on all five years.
Even so, from a law enforcement perspective, if the entire VIN is not stamped out in full, it means nothing. I agree that added knowledge of the variations from year to year can help an expert ID determine the year and other factors. But legally, to enter a serial number or VIN into a database, it must be complete. You are not allowed to subjectively add missing digits based on your knowledge of something. I.E. - If I enter a stolen Smith and Wesson handgun into a database and the victim only has a partial serial number, It is inappropriate for me to add extra digits into the system because the victim tells me it is stainless steel (which would have a different prefix). When it comes to databases, you either have the entire number or you do not. If you are missing any digits, the entry cannot be made nor can a search be done. Such a search would mean little and in court, would really mean nothing.
In some states (such as California), the true VIN is actually the frame and not the body. There is grey in everything which is exactly the point I am trying to make. The fact that a different CHP officer did my VIN verification after a different one would not shows there is room for debate. Probably why there are so many lawyers in this state. They all go to the same schools and read the same books yet they debate over the meaning. If they all saw things exactly the same, they would become unneccessary.
Even so, from a law enforcement perspective, if the entire VIN is not stamped out in full, it means nothing. I agree that added knowledge of the variations from year to year can help an expert ID determine the year and other factors. But legally, to enter a serial number or VIN into a database, it must be complete. You are not allowed to subjectively add missing digits based on your knowledge of something. I.E. - If I enter a stolen Smith and Wesson handgun into a database and the victim only has a partial serial number, It is inappropriate for me to add extra digits into the system because the victim tells me it is stainless steel (which would have a different prefix). When it comes to databases, you either have the entire number or you do not. If you are missing any digits, the entry cannot be made nor can a search be done. Such a search would mean little and in court, would really mean nothing.
In some states (such as California), the true VIN is actually the frame and not the body. There is grey in everything which is exactly the point I am trying to make. The fact that a different CHP officer did my VIN verification after a different one would not shows there is room for debate. Probably why there are so many lawyers in this state. They all go to the same schools and read the same books yet they debate over the meaning. If they all saw things exactly the same, they would become unneccessary.
04-29-2012, 01:34 PM
#24
Instructor
Well having title of the salvage frame would certainly be nice. But how many cars come without title and still manage to get new paperwork from the DMV. I think his comment is an oversimplification. What he should have said is, "To be certain you will not have problems down the road, it is best to have the title to the frame as well as the body." Keep in mind, the DMV is really nothing more than a government money collector. They really don't care as long as there are no obvious falsehoods and they are colloecting money.
04-29-2012, 07:12 PM
#25
Melting Slicks
Interesting bunch of posts....
Recently, my club and I did a front end rebuild and I found out that my 64 has a frame from a 63 from in front of the rear wheels and the headlight buckets are fiberglass (63 only). It may be the closest that I will ever come to getting a split window.
Recently, my club and I did a front end rebuild and I found out that my 64 has a frame from a 63 from in front of the rear wheels and the headlight buckets are fiberglass (63 only). It may be the closest that I will ever come to getting a split window.
04-30-2012, 01:27 AM
#26
Instructor
Thread Starter
Just currious. Why and how did they check the vin on the fame? Was the body off the frame when the police raided the shop? I have seen cases where the bird cage rail was cut along the frame rail under the door to check the vin. I tried to check the frame vin above the shock tower on my 65 with mirrors and had no luck. I hope they didn't cut up your birdcage.
04-30-2012, 04:06 PM
#27
Burning Brakes
The more difficult question to answer is: How much cheaper does the state issued VIN car have to be before a particular buyer will choose that car over the original VIN car?
04-30-2012, 06:26 PM
#28
Instructor
I suppose the difference in price would be a direct reflection of how valuable the car could be if it were unaltered. The highly collectable 63 fuelie coupe which is investment grade could be hit hard. A less desirable "driver" car such as mine without original engine and other stuff is already relatively low in price anyway so how much of a hit could it really suffer at this point?
It's nearly impossible to find a quality "driver" for less than 25K in my area. 30-35 is more like it. By driver, I mean a car that looks nice at 10 feet, gets some compliments here and there, and one you're not afraid to drive around. I am not too concerned about my frame issue now and just want to finish the car and have fun with it. If I ever sell it, I will try and sell it to someone like myself for a "fair" price.
It's nearly impossible to find a quality "driver" for less than 25K in my area. 30-35 is more like it. By driver, I mean a car that looks nice at 10 feet, gets some compliments here and there, and one you're not afraid to drive around. I am not too concerned about my frame issue now and just want to finish the car and have fun with it. If I ever sell it, I will try and sell it to someone like myself for a "fair" price.
05-26-2012, 11:48 PM
#29
Le Mans Master
I’m new to this site and I wanted to ask some advice from all the experts on what to do with my car. It’s a 66 roadster NOM that I bought from a car dealer back in 2000. I love the car and have had lots of years of enjoyment from it. The rub is I make a mistake when I bought it and the problem stayed hidden until I had owned it for about 5 years. This is a pretty crazy story so sorry if it’s kinda long. In 2005 I took the car to a shop to have some work done. After a few months of it being there the guy calls me and says he has some bad news. The police just left his shop and took my car with them because they said it was stolen. Turns out the real story is they were coming to his shop to look for a different car they suspected he had stolen. Just to clarify I’m a straight up guy and I bought the car from a reputable car dealer. The hidden problem that popped up when the police raided this guys shop was the frame VIN on my car was reported stolen in the late 60’s in CA and it didn’t match the VIN’s under the dash. Some of you can already figure out what happened. My car was likely wrecked along the way and somebody knowing or unknowingly bought a frame for it from a vehicle that was stolen 40 years ago. The police held my car 6 months while they looked for the owner of the car. Or in this case the owner of the frame. They understood I paid for the car legitimately and was just a victim but their position was the frame VIN took precedence over anything else. After their search for the “frame” owner turned up empty they finally gave my car back to me. Then I had to have the car state patrol inspected. At that point they terminated my title and removed the VIN tags on the car and put a WA state VIN tag on it with the VIN from the frame. At that point I was only allowed a registration and could only apply for a title after three years in case the car (frame) owner surfaced. That was 6 years ago. Believe it or not I haven’t gone back to the DMV to get a title, but I will soon. I’ve just been super busy and had no intention to sell the car. My question to the experts. What do I have here? I would expect this dings the value some. But does it? Is it realistically worth any less than a typical NOM car? When I bought the car it’s all I could afford and I knew it was a NOM. The car is a strong condition 2.5 to 3 and presents well. Anyway be curious to hear some feedback. Thanks for reading.
If it were me, I'd get a lawyer. I wouldn't beg with a cop, plead, try to bargain, nothing. Of course, that was 7 years ago for you so it is probably far too late to do anything. I'd still talk to a lawyer.
Back in 2005, I would advice the cop that I plan to turn the matter over to my attorney, and that if he touches the VIN plate on that car and damages/removes it, I would be pressing federal charges for VIN tampering. I would get his badge number and full name. The VIN is federal.
Like John says, it is the VIN that determines the vehicle by federal law, regardless of what some local cop wants to say.
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The VIN derivative stamped on the frame isn't the primary legal identifier for the car anyway - the primary identifier is the manufacturer's VIN plate riveted ('65-'67) or welded ('63-'64) to the crossbrace below the glove box. Frame changes on 50-year-old cars are pretty common due to corrosion.
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The VIN derivative stamped on the frame isn't the primary legal identifier for the car anyway - the primary identifier is the manufacturer's VIN plate riveted ('65-'67) or welded ('63-'64) to the crossbrace below the glove box. Frame changes on 50-year-old cars are pretty common due to corrosion.
Changing a frame, while not common on most cars, is something anticipated by the manufacturer and is something that is very common on 50 year old classic cars that lived in the rust belt.
Tell the cop to point to the law, by statute, that prevents you from changing a part on a car. The frame is just a part.
05-27-2012, 01:15 AM
#30
Instructor
Thread Starter
Hindsight always being 20/20 the outcome could have been different. Guess I’ll never know. At the time based on the information I had and the resourses available I did the best I could. I did retain an attorney and tried to get the dealer that sold the car to me to accept some responsibility. There is a law in the state of ID that’s goes something to the effect of unless you can prove that a car dealer knew in advance that the car they sold you had questionable history you can’t hold them liable. My attorney told me the ID law was very dealer centric whereas some states have a more consumer friendly version putting the burden back on the dealer. It never occurred to me at the time that I potentially had a case against the police and the WA state Patrol. For the expensive to fight it still not sure it would have been worth it. Also, the VIN tag didnt have the proper rosette pop rivets. At some point in the cars life the VIN tag was off. Why? Who knows. Could have been legit and whom ever re-attached it didnt care what pop rivets they used. Or maybe there was VIN tag altering at some point.
Last edited by Powderboy; 05-27-2012 at 01:26 AM.
05-28-2012, 02:15 AM
#31
Le Mans Master
I just read this thread and it has me thinking, I have purchased two C3 frames because my numbers matching C2 is rusted to a point of needing major frame repair.
The C2 kickups are badly rusted and I plan to use most of the C3 frame parts to fix it. Should I remove the original metal with the C2 frame number stamp and weld it back into the same spot in the new sections I use in my C2 keeper frame or is this considered illegal. I don't see how it would be any more illegal than using Paragon frame parts to repair the same area.
The C2 kickups are badly rusted and I plan to use most of the C3 frame parts to fix it. Should I remove the original metal with the C2 frame number stamp and weld it back into the same spot in the new sections I use in my C2 keeper frame or is this considered illegal. I don't see how it would be any more illegal than using Paragon frame parts to repair the same area.
05-28-2012, 09:40 AM
#32
Instructor
I would cut the number out and move it to the new rail just to avoid issues down the road. It is not difficult for a pro to do. Plus, if you ever did sell the car down the road (or pass it on to someone), it alleviates any potential issues there as well.
I would have done that on mine but the number was the wrong one to start with. Instead, I removed it completely since they sell replacement frame rails and whole frames. And it is not unusual to replace frames and frame sections on these expensive classics.
As far as one of the prior posts, way too late now to do anything. Attorney would have been good idea back then but water under the bridge now. Threats would have not helped the issue at all. Honest people don't resort to threats, only people who have done something wrong. As an investigator myself, when I hear threats, it is a flag that I am on the right track and need to keep digging.
It's all working out now, enjoy the car. Now you have an interesting story to go with it.
I would have done that on mine but the number was the wrong one to start with. Instead, I removed it completely since they sell replacement frame rails and whole frames. And it is not unusual to replace frames and frame sections on these expensive classics.
As far as one of the prior posts, way too late now to do anything. Attorney would have been good idea back then but water under the bridge now. Threats would have not helped the issue at all. Honest people don't resort to threats, only people who have done something wrong. As an investigator myself, when I hear threats, it is a flag that I am on the right track and need to keep digging.
It's all working out now, enjoy the car. Now you have an interesting story to go with it.
