Powderboy

I’m new to this site and I wanted to ask some advice from all the experts on what to do with my car. It’s a 66 roadster NOM that I bought from a car dealer back in 2000. I love the car and have had lots of years of enjoyment from it. The rub is I make a mistake when I bought it and the problem stayed hidden until I had owned it for about 5 years. This is a pretty crazy story so sorry if it’s kinda long. In 2005 I took the car to a shop to have some work done. After a few months of it being there the guy calls me and says he has some bad news. The police just left his shop and took my car with them because they said it was stolen. Turns out the real story is they were coming to his shop to look for a different car they suspected he had stolen. Just to clarify I’m a straight up guy and I bought the car from a reputable car dealer. The hidden problem that popped up when the police raided this guys shop was the frame VIN on my car was reported stolen in the late 60’s in CA and it didn’t match the VIN’s under the dash. Some of you can already figure out what happened. My car was likely wrecked along the way and somebody knowing or unknowingly bought a frame for it from a vehicle that was stolen 40 years ago. The police held my car 6 months while they looked for the owner of the car. Or in this case the owner of the frame. They understood I paid for the car legitimately and was just a victim but their position was the frame VIN took precedence over anything else. After their search for the “frame” owner turned up empty they finally gave my car back to me. Then I had to have the car state patrol inspected. At that point they terminated my title and removed the VIN tags on the car and put a WA state VIN tag on it with the VIN from the frame. At that point I was only allowed a registration and could only apply for a title after three years in case the car (frame) owner surfaced. That was 6 years ago. Believe it or not I haven’t gone back to the DMV to get a title, but I will soon. I’ve just been super busy and had no intention to sell the car. My question to the experts. What do I have here? I would expect this dings the value some. But does it? Is it realistically worth any less than a typical NOM car? When I bought the car it’s all I could afford and I knew it was a NOM. The car is a strong condition 2.5 to 3 and presents well. Anyway be curious to hear some feedback. Thanks for reading.

65GGvert

Without knowing anything about your car, no pictures, no info on engine, trans, etc except for what you've described, and no idea of what your car is worth, I would not buy it and take over your headaches for selling the car. Two things would have to occur: it would have to be one heck of a deal, and I would plan to die owning it. Other opinions may vary, but it's too much for me to deal with.

Powderboy

Thanks for the feedback. The car isnt for sale and I wasnt looking for someone to establish present value just to be clear. Maybe the way I asked the question didnt communicate properly so sorry if it was confusing. Again, just looking for general feedback from the Corvette community if they've seen any situations like this and what generally is the result with respect to value.

dahogan

IMHO: Yes, because the number of interested people in buying the car will be substancially less.

Mike Ward

A state issued VIN might be a deal breaker for some, a 30% price hit for others, or have no effect at all depending on the buyer. If you're not selling it makes no never mind.

Powderboy

Here's another question. When you guys are buying cars do you check under dash VIN and then the frame VIN to see if they match? Where is the frame VIN on a 66 Corvette located?

jbalch

The VIN on the frame is located on top of the frame rail near the driver's side rear wheel. Take the wheel off and VIN will be near the center of the wheel opening on top of the frame.

HouTex1964Vert

I think you probably have a "bonded title." Usually, a regular title can be issued after a specified period of time. I don't know how that works with no VIN tags on your car anymore. I think you should enjoy your car for a while.....a long, long, while.

Powderboy

No bonded title. I passed on that. The time period to wait was 3 years. That time has come and gone. The car will have a legitimate title and VIN matching both the under dash tag and frame. All good there. The issue would be the stigma of a state issued VIN plate in absence of the correct Chevrolet ones with the roset pop rivets.

Geralds57

Man that sucks. No one would have ever known if the body hadn't been pulled. It hurts the value quite a bit. I know you're not selling it now, but it will be a tough sell when the time comes even if it's a real slick car. The majority of people are going to pass on it. Just drive it and enjoy it.

capevettes

Cars like this are worth what someone is willing to pay for them. It will always be less than a car with no "stories". Some people would be unwilling to buy them even at a major discount. Others may view it as an opportunity to get into a midyear reasonably. It's a tough break for you. Hopefully you can just block it out of your mind and enjoy driving it.

woodsdesign

Just currious. Why and how did they check the vin on the fame? Was the body off the frame when the police raided the shop? I have seen cases where the bird cage rail was cut along the frame rail under the door to check the vin. I tried to check the frame vin above the shock tower on my 65 with mirrors and had no luck. I hope they didn't cut up your birdcage.

shemp

{That is exactly what I was thinking. How did they see the vin on the frame. Unless you know where it is and have a mirror. I would bet most cops have no idea where the vin # is. Shemp

beekppr

Check this out, I can shed some light on this for you. The VIN on the frame is only a partial number. It is the last letter (for convertible or coupe) and the 6 numbers (the serial number) of your car but it is NOT the VIN in it's entirety, just the back half. Having said that, it means there is no way to say if it came from a stolen car or not. Completely impossible! To do what they did, they would have to be able to say that frame is out of a C2 which would narrown it to 63-67. Without the entire VIN, they could never definitively say it was a certain year or they would have to run each and every year. Since they could not narrow their search to a specific year, they would need to search all five years. But this is not fair to you because you could righteously own "S000001" from a 1965 and if they discover "S000001" from a 1966 was reported stolen, then they assume it could be the one they are looking for when it is not. There is a "000001" for each of the five years and since no one can say for certain whether each of these were coupes or roadsters, it is simply guesswork. The best they could ever say is it "might" be the stolen one they are looking for. In a civil case, you need only prove your case 51% to win and I think this more than qualifies. It's 80% without accounting for the coupe vs roadster letter variable.

So how do I know this? First of all, I am a cop. Second, I have a similar story myself. The jerk I bought my car from did not disclose anything. When I tried getting my car regisitered, it needed a VIN verification which naturally did not pass. The highway patrol guy tried this same nonsense on me claiming he would have to "run it" for all five years just to be sure. I objected stating that he was fishing and subjecting me to risk five times over and could never be certain of anything. He ran it five times anyway for each year but came up empty handed. In order to run it, he had to substitute the missing digits to create hypothetical VIN's which may have once existed. Sounds really fair huh? Based on the body VIN, turns out my car had been stolen in 1975 and recovered a day or two later. It was sold on insurance auction (wrecked I assume) and the guy I bought it from was the guy who bought it back then. Through later investigation, I found the back half of the car (body and frame) were cut off and a new one grafted on (very poorly I might add) - this is why my serial number no longer matches the body.

I refused to allow the CHP to "blue tag" my car. I found another less "**** like" CHP officer and after explaining my findings, he agreed to verify the car for me agreeing that the circumstances were unusual and certainly believable.

I recently separated the body and frame to fix everything right. The frame is now perfect and currently being powdercoated. At my request, I removed the old "offending" number off the frame so it will never become a problem again. We talked about fixing the VIN on the repaired frame but I chose to leave it bare because I do not want to be accused of being deceptive. Besides, people change frames often in these cars for used ones, modified ones from C3's, new modern tech frames, or simply replace the arm with the serial number due to rust issues. I bet there are lots of Vettes out there with wrong or no serial numbers on the frame.

I figure my car is never going to be worth much anyway because of the past damage and because the original engine, tranny, differential are gone. I am taking tons of photos and if I ever sell it (which I probably won't), the whole truth will be disclosed in great detail.

I believe the same applies in your case. It has lost lots of value but it only matters if you sell it.

Sorry for the long winded explanation but I thought it would interest you. I think the cop who seized your car far exceeded his authority. I have seized many stolen things in my time as a cop but I would never seize something that had a partial serial number because it "might" be stolen. That's about as bad as arresting "John Smith" for a warrant just because the name matches but the other descriptors such as birth date, ID number, etc. are not matching.

tuxnharley

Hmmm - I've got a friend in our club who is the original owner of a '63 convertible that he bought new in Minnesota. Everything is original/"matching numbers" EXCEPT the frame, which he replaced due to severe rust damage from the winters and salt. The VIN on the frame does not match the one in the car. He does have proof of chain of ownership back to his original bill of sale. Does that make the car worth less? I wonder how it would be treated if he ever sells it......?

Powderboy

Beekppr, Thanks very much. Your explanation fits my dilemma exactly. The detective that took my car wasn’t fair with me. During my weekly interactions begging him to return my vehicle he kept reminding me it wasn’t legitimately even my car although within hours of him taking it I produced a bill of sale and contact info from the car dealer in Boise, ID I purchased it from. I’ve also heard stories since then that this particular municipality has a reputation of keeping cars permanently under the circumstances I found myself in. Some of the locals that knew my plight were amazed at my ability to talk them down to a point of releasing my car back to me at all. Like I said in the beginning it’s a bizarre chain reaction event that ended really poorly for me. Had I never got mixed up with the guy that was working on my car this would have never happened and like you said Beekppr there’s probably nothing wrong with my car. It’s a really nice NOM and because of the front end damage it must have sustained sometime in its life has the replacement fiberglass front nose. But that’s it. I don’t believe it deserves a WA VIN tag. Anyway thanks all the words of encouragement and feedback. I love these cars. My daily driver is a Porsche 997 turbo cab. Weather permitting I always pick my Corvette to drive. I’ll get another Corvette in the coming years. My son is 28 and a super great kid. He loves the car and I think most likely I’ll surprise him one of these days and give it to him for his birthday. I paid 30k for the car. Held long enough I would guess the value will correct. I can’t seem to figure out how to post pictures on this site but when I do I’ll put some up so you can see the car.

Fraternally,

Brian

beekppr

Well if I ever buy another C2 down the road, I will be checking this just so I know what I am getting into. Me personally, if a guy had lots of documentation, photos, and clearly disclosed everything, I would not shy away from it or expect to get the car at a huge discount. It would be one extra factor to consider but certainly not a deal killer if I thought the seller was an honest person and the rest of the conditions/factors were right.

Now, if I were buying a 63 split window fuelie coupe for high dollars in collector grade condition and I was buying it more as an investment, the frame number issue could be a deal killer. I think a car such as this one would have the frame removed, the original number cut out and spliced into the replacement frame. It could be done so professionally that no one would ever know. And you could argue that you are still using the original frame (the section with the serial number) and doing repairs to it (replacing the rest of the frame with newer components surrounding the old section). In my view, it would legally be no different than the folks who tear down 99% of their old house and build modern construction around the old (a bedroom for instance) because new codes won't allow them to demolish and re-build.

Powderboy

Based on my experience any cars with replacement frames have risk. How much? Guess it depends. As you can read from my experience and others there can be a number of issues created. One of those issues is It allows subjectivity from law enforcement and in my case their overly aggressive position left me with a permanently scarred car.

beekppr

Glad that helps Powderboy. When I read your post, I could soooo feel your pain. I agree that it time, you will not lose money. And I have found that if you are completely open and honest about stuff later on, things work out just fine. Always giving full diclosure when selling cars has kept me out of lawsuits, avoided bricks through the window in the middle of the night, and allowed me to feel good about the deal afterward. If it were sold, there may be a few who will shy away but better that they do because those are the guys who sue you later because the paint on the car only lasted 20 years (or some other silly thing like that)

beekppr

I truly believe the cop who did that to you was flat wrong. I suspect his superiors or a district attorney pulled him aside and explained to him that he seized your property inappropriately. Besides, the car the stolen frame came from could have been a different year and probably a different color so how do reconcile that? The stolen vehicle report wouldn't even match the car which was being returned to the victim. No, that cop didn't know what he was doing. Trust me, I have spent years in fraud investigation and while the situation may seem odd, it doesn't hold up to further scrutiny. He had to give it back to you in the end.