Do you ever work on modern cars, arg!
01-10-2013, 02:46 PM
#21
Drifting
Russ
01-10-2013, 05:56 PM
#22
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I will say this about working on new cars vs the old ones. Generally, you don't have to work on the new ones.
The new ones just don't require much of anything done to them. They start, run and keep running and you don't have to touch much of anything for 100,000 miles or more.
Replacement parts are outrageously expensive as is the diagnostic equipment required if something does go wrong.
Each and every automotive dictate from Uncle Sam will make this situation continually worse as time goes on to the point that low income people will not be able to afford a new car and if they have an old one and it develops a problem, they won't be able to afford to fix it and it will be scrapped! They'll walk or take public transportation (is this part of the plan?).
You ain't seen nuthin' yet!
The new ones just don't require much of anything done to them. They start, run and keep running and you don't have to touch much of anything for 100,000 miles or more.
Replacement parts are outrageously expensive as is the diagnostic equipment required if something does go wrong.
Each and every automotive dictate from Uncle Sam will make this situation continually worse as time goes on to the point that low income people will not be able to afford a new car and if they have an old one and it develops a problem, they won't be able to afford to fix it and it will be scrapped! They'll walk or take public transportation (is this part of the plan?).
You ain't seen nuthin' yet!
01-10-2013, 06:00 PM
#23
Team Owner
The flip side is that the new shops are all OBD-II zealots and parts swappers so you BETTER learn to maintain your older cars yourself. Most shops don't want to do old school anymore and turn such work away.
01-10-2013, 06:20 PM
#24
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St. Jude Donor '05
To wit, I told a friend after diagnosing bad injectors on his stock '89 coupe I could swap them
I had an 87 G20 van that was TBI but never had to touch it. Stone reliable
I had to do injectors holy smokes. I hated that convoluted TPI setup more than anything. Most poorly thought out intake EVER. It absolutely has to go back together IN ORDER exactly as it comes apart or stuff dont fit. Those bottom torx bolts are a nuisance. Did the rear china wall seal so many times as they all leak I could get it down to about 4 hrs but most times Id space it out over 2 days as my back just couldnt take it.
Then I bought a ZR1.
Ill say this...there is a REASON they pulled the whole motor rather than replaced pieces on it. Water pump..thought I was gonna hang myself before finisihing it. Made me hate owning C4s for sure just not wrench friendly cars.
01-10-2013, 07:18 PM
#25
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Dan
01-10-2013, 08:32 PM
#26
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Try replacing the starter on a Caddy Northstar V-8 - it's buried down in the "V" underneath the intake manifold; you have to tear it down to a long-block to change the starter. 
01-10-2013, 08:35 PM
#27
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any of you work on a GM 3.6 from the 90's Montes and such
01-10-2013, 08:40 PM
#28
Drifting
01-10-2013, 08:49 PM
#29
Safety Car
It just depends. What car is it, and what broke or got modified? The Corvette Doctor here in Houston harangued me for an hour about the owner of a 97 'vette who was willing to pay full freight to have the heater core replaced; had to remove the whole dashboard, intake manifold and windshield to do it - did I mention they put em on top of the computer so when they leak you wind up needing one of those, too?
Then again, upgrading the supercharger on my '03 Cobra was only a 5 1/2 hour job from wheels up (to loosen the EGR pipe) to loading the new engine program and driving off, 180 rear wheel horsepower to the better.
Yeah water pumps are $300, but to borrow from MikeM, they just don't break like they used to.
Then again, upgrading the supercharger on my '03 Cobra was only a 5 1/2 hour job from wheels up (to loosen the EGR pipe) to loading the new engine program and driving off, 180 rear wheel horsepower to the better.
Yeah water pumps are $300, but to borrow from MikeM, they just don't break like they used to.
01-10-2013, 09:05 PM
#30
Safety Car
Thread Starter
I'm pleasantly surprised to hear that I'm not the only guy out there who doesn't necessarily enjoy the complete new car experience. 
I think maybe the younger guys are just so used to it? They've never known the luxury of our comparative acres of under hood space, absolutely no clutter due to emissions controls, safety equipment or computers and all their supporting ancillaries?
Just for fun here is a pic of what my model looks like under hood with the engine cover off, maybe a tad busy in there...
Paul
I think maybe the younger guys are just so used to it? They've never known the luxury of our comparative acres of under hood space, absolutely no clutter due to emissions controls, safety equipment or computers and all their supporting ancillaries?
Just for fun here is a pic of what my model looks like under hood with the engine cover off, maybe a tad busy in there...
Paul
01-10-2013, 09:06 PM
#31
Burning Brakes
2004 avalanche 5.3L...some of the recent trials...
O2 sensor replace after check engine light, required removal of the front driveshaft to get to the sensor and plug in on the transmission.
Plug replacement, said to hell with the passenger rear, it got 7 plugs and new wires. Dont even get me started on those spring loaded heat shields on the plug boots and how the boots were baked on.
replaced transmission fluid and filter...shift linkage blocks pan removal and has to be completely removed to facilitate dropping the trans pan.
Transaxle fluid replacement...good luck finding it in the chain auto parts stores...luckily found it in an old time ma and pa shop locally.
rear end diff fluid replace, no drain plug in a 2004 (came later)...had to pull the pumpkin cover.
one hint on the O2 sensor, no normal deep well works even with the wire cut...and the specialty socket is expensive. I used a normal wrench and an old mechanic trick. I TIGHTENED it and it went "POP", then immediately loosen and it comes right out.
oh, almost forgot the best one of all. Power steering pump went bad...replacement required taking almost every item off the driver side of the engine. had to pull the pulley and install on the new core...in the process I screwed up a seal but didn't discover it until re-assembly. So I got to install another new PS pump...good news is I knew exactly how to do it the second time.
O2 sensor replace after check engine light, required removal of the front driveshaft to get to the sensor and plug in on the transmission.
Plug replacement, said to hell with the passenger rear, it got 7 plugs and new wires. Dont even get me started on those spring loaded heat shields on the plug boots and how the boots were baked on.
replaced transmission fluid and filter...shift linkage blocks pan removal and has to be completely removed to facilitate dropping the trans pan.
Transaxle fluid replacement...good luck finding it in the chain auto parts stores...luckily found it in an old time ma and pa shop locally.
rear end diff fluid replace, no drain plug in a 2004 (came later)...had to pull the pumpkin cover.
one hint on the O2 sensor, no normal deep well works even with the wire cut...and the specialty socket is expensive. I used a normal wrench and an old mechanic trick. I TIGHTENED it and it went "POP", then immediately loosen and it comes right out.
oh, almost forgot the best one of all. Power steering pump went bad...replacement required taking almost every item off the driver side of the engine. had to pull the pulley and install on the new core...in the process I screwed up a seal but didn't discover it until re-assembly. So I got to install another new PS pump...good news is I knew exactly how to do it the second time.
01-10-2013, 09:29 PM
#32
Burning Brakes
All of you are making this too difficult. You must understand one basic concept to work on new cars.
1.You do not need to have knowledge of mechanics, engineering, electricity, hydraulics, shade tree mechanics, etc.; all these are of little use.
2.One must have an advanced degree in Philosophy, specifically logic. Service manuals are just glorified decision trees. "If A and B then C, if C equals D; therefore, E needs replaced, if C does not equal D then G needs replaced...on and on and on.
3.Buy a service manual and a pencil. On the front of the service manual draw a decision ladder which has two paths: left tree path 'drink a beer' --right tree path 'open manual' . "if empty beer bottle weights less than the manual, have tow-truck take vehicle to shop"
It works every time.
1.You do not need to have knowledge of mechanics, engineering, electricity, hydraulics, shade tree mechanics, etc.; all these are of little use.
2.One must have an advanced degree in Philosophy, specifically logic. Service manuals are just glorified decision trees. "If A and B then C, if C equals D; therefore, E needs replaced, if C does not equal D then G needs replaced...on and on and on.
3.Buy a service manual and a pencil. On the front of the service manual draw a decision ladder which has two paths: left tree path 'drink a beer' --right tree path 'open manual' . "if empty beer bottle weights less than the manual, have tow-truck take vehicle to shop"
It works every time.
Last edited by devildog; 01-10-2013 at 09:31 PM.
01-10-2013, 09:32 PM
#33
Burning Brakes
I decided to save a few bucks and did the timing belt on my DD Miata. Eleven hours ! I admit I did everything two or three times to make sure it was right, but still. A friend had the water pump replaced on his Audi S4, an all day job, the complete nose has to come off the car including the front fenders ! No thanks. Bob
01-10-2013, 10:16 PM
#34
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The variable-speed electric water pump on the new BMW's is computer-controlled, and the replacement costs $2,800.00 (plus labor).
01-10-2013, 10:49 PM
#35
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Depends on the vehicle.
I "was" able to change water pumps on 63 through 80's Chevys in about 30 minutes flat (early solid axle Vettes are another matter). And spark plugs were a 15 minute deal, but of course with replacing plugs every 2K miles (70 Vette 350/350), you tend to get "good" at it.
Try replacing a water pump on a 68 Caddy, and 2 hours later.....everything on the front has to be removed.
87 Vette infectors (whoops, make that injectors) replacement means taking off the plenum & throttle body, including the runners, & AC compressor, air pump, alternator, PS pump, etc. (including the mystery AC compressor bolt). That is a full day! Or how about the infamous oil sender on C5 Vettes. Pull the intake to replace a sendor (or drill a large hole in the cowl panel - ugh!)? Then there is "anything" needing dash work on a C5 Vette, and you start by removing the center console & working forward.
I can remember back in the early 80's when Pontiac stated outright that the hoods were going to be "sealed" with only an access hatch on the hood for check fluids. Only the dealers were going to be able to service the cars. Obviously they did not do it, mainly due to the complaints from you and I.
And if you are going to work on a new vehicle, better have spent the money on the manuals, and be prepared to spend more on "special" tools......
Plasticman
I "was" able to change water pumps on 63 through 80's Chevys in about 30 minutes flat (early solid axle Vettes are another matter). And spark plugs were a 15 minute deal, but of course with replacing plugs every 2K miles (70 Vette 350/350), you tend to get "good" at it.
Try replacing a water pump on a 68 Caddy, and 2 hours later.....everything on the front has to be removed.
87 Vette infectors (whoops, make that injectors) replacement means taking off the plenum & throttle body, including the runners, & AC compressor, air pump, alternator, PS pump, etc. (including the mystery AC compressor bolt). That is a full day! Or how about the infamous oil sender on C5 Vettes. Pull the intake to replace a sendor (or drill a large hole in the cowl panel - ugh!)? Then there is "anything" needing dash work on a C5 Vette, and you start by removing the center console & working forward.
I can remember back in the early 80's when Pontiac stated outright that the hoods were going to be "sealed" with only an access hatch on the hood for check fluids. Only the dealers were going to be able to service the cars. Obviously they did not do it, mainly due to the complaints from you and I.
And if you are going to work on a new vehicle, better have spent the money on the manuals, and be prepared to spend more on "special" tools......
Plasticman
Last edited by Plasticman; 01-10-2013 at 10:53 PM.
01-11-2013, 12:48 AM
#36
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St. Jude Donor '05
Yeah water pumps are $300, but to borrow from MikeM, they just don't break like they used to.
Heater core on my Silverado is bad. After watching some youtube videos theres not a chance in hell no way. Gonna pay someone to do this one
01-11-2013, 02:07 AM
#37
Le Mans Master
Makes You Appreciate Working On an Old Chevy
All of this seems to make even the worst jobs we perceive on these old Vettes a pleasure in comparison. On the V6 motor in my old 95 Ford Probe, in order to replace the timing belt, you had to lift the motor out!!! My 04 Siverado needed all new brake lines at 69K (took 2 25ft rolls of line don't ask) with ABS module mounted under the drivers door, what a miserable job. And then there are the Toyota stories on other vehicles I work on and the darn check engine lights. Like I said, my worst day working on one of the old Vettes is usually a better day than one of the new ones. The electronics kill you on the OBD II systems when you start replacing parts, dealers have the advantage because they can plug and play for free. 
Pilot Dan
ps: Did you know that if your modern Chevy's dash lights burn out that they get to sell you an entirely new dash cluster to fix that. The bulbs are LED's that are soldered to the circuit board. So be glad at least we can replace ours in the Vettes. Paul, you hit a nerve
Pilot Danps: Did you know that if your modern Chevy's dash lights burn out that they get to sell you an entirely new dash cluster to fix that. The bulbs are LED's that are soldered to the circuit board. So be glad at least we can replace ours in the Vettes. Paul, you hit a nerve
Last edited by Pilot Dan; 01-11-2013 at 02:19 AM.
01-11-2013, 08:10 AM
#38
Instructor
Don't forget about the hybrids and electric vehicles. Ranging from 150 to 300 volts, there are plenty of warnings and caution tags on the vehicle to remind you of certain DEATH if you touch the wrong thing without first disabling the high voltage system. No more feeler guages and screwdrivers, now its class 0 isolation gloves and high voltage multimeter for repairs. At least with the isolation gloves and leather cover gloves, you hands don't get cut up and greasy.
01-11-2013, 08:17 AM
#39
Team Owner
I think its a case of young engineers fresh out of grad school giddy with the thought of designing some super-slick gadget with no thought of the poor tech that has to deal with the aftermath when trouble strikes. The goal is to trade the car in before that happens.
Having said all that I will have to agree with MikeM. How many times recently have you seen a car running down the road leaving a sooty, oily smoke screen....or pulled up beside a guy at a light whose car has a pronounced rod-knock, or heard a big backfire out an exhaust, etc.. ?
That used to be a garden-variety event with the old cars.
Having said all that I will have to agree with MikeM. How many times recently have you seen a car running down the road leaving a sooty, oily smoke screen....or pulled up beside a guy at a light whose car has a pronounced rod-knock, or heard a big backfire out an exhaust, etc.. ?
That used to be a garden-variety event with the old cars.
01-11-2013, 08:41 AM
#40
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I know the feeling. A couple years ago I changed out the blower drive pulley and sparkplugs on my supercharged Ford Lightning. It probably took me a full 6 hours to change out the plugs and my hands were like shreaded meat and my back was killing me afterwards. I had to work out so many rinky-dink socket, swivel, extension rigs to get to them changed that I thought I was back in tinker toys era. The little coil pack retaining bolts on the back cylinders were a nightmare. I finally had to tie them to my finger with thread because I knew if I dropped one I would never find it. After I finally managed to get them threaded I broke the thread. What an ordeal. 
Also changed out the intake on a newer V-6 Buick - another lovely experience.
Also changed out the intake on a newer V-6 Buick - another lovely experience.
