59 King Pin Question
06-04-2013, 02:13 PM
#1
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
59 King Pin Question
Hi All:
On my recent purchased 59 Vette, i was troubleshooting why the car was pulling so violently to the right when braking. Thought it was the drum brakes adjusted to tight on the right side. Adjusted brakes, bleed lines, still the same.
I notice the left (not right) king pins are worn pretty bad. Would that make the car dart violently to the right on braking ?
Anyway… plan to do the king pins and I did a search and found all the great info on the forum, especially Tom Parsons great pictorial on the front end rebuild. Point noted on having to ‘ream’ on later day kits but not earlier kits.
Vendor; I have a suggestion from a member to use Zip Corvette for the parts, that he did not have to ream the spindles using their kit. I see Kanter also has them for a slight bit less $$ ($39 vs $45) and another member says did not need to ream using their kit either. Corvette America has them at almost double the price ? Is there some quality issue going on here ? Or same thimng just dbl the cost ?
Removal / Install Procedure; I have no manual and getting one in time for the upcoming weekend (when I plan to do the job) does not seem likely. Is this do-able just through observation / looking at how it comes apart ? Or is there some procedure that I really really should have the manual to proceed ? I do have a chassis manual to various other old cars I have (such as my 38 Ply that uses king pins) as a general ref (that is a leaf axle theough, not coils). I am guessing it is pretty close in terms of procedure.
Some key pointers / procedure steps might let me tackle it w/o a chevy chassis manual in hand if you have any steps you can share (in addition to vendor question noted)
Thanks All !!!!
Jim
Boston Area
On my recent purchased 59 Vette, i was troubleshooting why the car was pulling so violently to the right when braking. Thought it was the drum brakes adjusted to tight on the right side. Adjusted brakes, bleed lines, still the same.
I notice the left (not right) king pins are worn pretty bad. Would that make the car dart violently to the right on braking ?
Anyway… plan to do the king pins and I did a search and found all the great info on the forum, especially Tom Parsons great pictorial on the front end rebuild. Point noted on having to ‘ream’ on later day kits but not earlier kits.
Vendor; I have a suggestion from a member to use Zip Corvette for the parts, that he did not have to ream the spindles using their kit. I see Kanter also has them for a slight bit less $$ ($39 vs $45) and another member says did not need to ream using their kit either. Corvette America has them at almost double the price ? Is there some quality issue going on here ? Or same thimng just dbl the cost ?
Removal / Install Procedure; I have no manual and getting one in time for the upcoming weekend (when I plan to do the job) does not seem likely. Is this do-able just through observation / looking at how it comes apart ? Or is there some procedure that I really really should have the manual to proceed ? I do have a chassis manual to various other old cars I have (such as my 38 Ply that uses king pins) as a general ref (that is a leaf axle theough, not coils). I am guessing it is pretty close in terms of procedure.
Some key pointers / procedure steps might let me tackle it w/o a chevy chassis manual in hand if you have any steps you can share (in addition to vendor question noted)
Thanks All !!!!
Jim
Boston Area
Last edited by 65GTO; 06-04-2013 at 02:28 PM.
06-04-2013, 02:32 PM
#2
Le Mans Master
Member Since: May 2000
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada NS
Posts: 5,932
Received 107 Likes
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51 Posts
Hi All:
On my recent purchased 59 Vette, i was troubleshooting why the car was pulling so violently to the right when braking. Thought it was the drum brakes adjusted to tight on the right side. Adjusted brakes, bleed lines, still the same.
I notice the left (not right) king pins are worn pretty bad. Would that make the car dart violently to the right on braking ?
Anyway… plan to do the king pins and I did a search and found all the great info on the forum, especially Tom Parsons great pictorial on the front end rebuild. Point noted on having to ‘ream’ on later day kits but not earlier kits.
Vendor; I have a suggestion from a member to use Zip Corvette for the parts, that he did not have to ream the spindles using their kit. I see Kanter also has them for a slight bit less $$ ($39 vs $45) and another member says did not need to ream using their kit either. Corvette America has them at almost double the price ? Is there some quality issue going on here ? Or same thimng just dbl the cost ?
Removal / Install Procedure; I have no manual and getting one in time for the upcoming weekend (when I plan to do the job) does not seem likely. Is this do-able just through observation / looking at how it comes apart ? Or is there some procedure that I really really should have the manual to proceed ? I do have a chassis manual to various other old cars I have (such as my 38 Ply that uses king pins) as a general ref (that is a leaf axle theough, not coils). I am guessing it is pretty close in terms of procedure.
Some key pointers / procedure steps might let me tackle it w/o a chevy chassis manual in hand if you have any steps you can share (in addition to vendor question noted)
Thanks All !!!!
Jim
Boston Area
On my recent purchased 59 Vette, i was troubleshooting why the car was pulling so violently to the right when braking. Thought it was the drum brakes adjusted to tight on the right side. Adjusted brakes, bleed lines, still the same.
I notice the left (not right) king pins are worn pretty bad. Would that make the car dart violently to the right on braking ?
Anyway… plan to do the king pins and I did a search and found all the great info on the forum, especially Tom Parsons great pictorial on the front end rebuild. Point noted on having to ‘ream’ on later day kits but not earlier kits.
Vendor; I have a suggestion from a member to use Zip Corvette for the parts, that he did not have to ream the spindles using their kit. I see Kanter also has them for a slight bit less $$ ($39 vs $45) and another member says did not need to ream using their kit either. Corvette America has them at almost double the price ? Is there some quality issue going on here ? Or same thimng just dbl the cost ?
Removal / Install Procedure; I have no manual and getting one in time for the upcoming weekend (when I plan to do the job) does not seem likely. Is this do-able just through observation / looking at how it comes apart ? Or is there some procedure that I really really should have the manual to proceed ? I do have a chassis manual to various other old cars I have (such as my 38 Ply that uses king pins) as a general ref (that is a leaf axle theough, not coils). I am guessing it is pretty close in terms of procedure.
Some key pointers / procedure steps might let me tackle it w/o a chevy chassis manual in hand if you have any steps you can share (in addition to vendor question noted)
Thanks All !!!!
Jim
Boston Area
PS: Those Bruins in your Boston area are looking good!!!!
06-04-2013, 03:05 PM
#3
Race Director
Car jerking steering wheel to one side during braking is front brakes, car going one direction without real apparent steering wheel pull is rear brakes.
Unless your king pin is really worn, so that the wheel just flops around, i would say king pins is not the cause, but since you found there is a problem, i would do the right thing and replace both, then get alignment and adjust brakes.
The really right thing to do is have all the control arms checked for bushing looseness and if they are worn, get the front end rebuilt. These cars handle quite well when everything isn't all worn out.
Note that grease or oil of brake shoes can cause extreme brake grabbiness, also. Lotsa things, cracked drums, frozen slave cylinders, etc can cause problems, shoes installed backwards, wrong springs, quite a list of stuff.
Doug
Unless your king pin is really worn, so that the wheel just flops around, i would say king pins is not the cause, but since you found there is a problem, i would do the right thing and replace both, then get alignment and adjust brakes.
The really right thing to do is have all the control arms checked for bushing looseness and if they are worn, get the front end rebuilt. These cars handle quite well when everything isn't all worn out.
Note that grease or oil of brake shoes can cause extreme brake grabbiness, also. Lotsa things, cracked drums, frozen slave cylinders, etc can cause problems, shoes installed backwards, wrong springs, quite a list of stuff.
Doug
06-04-2013, 03:22 PM
#4
Race Director
Investigate a automotive machine shop, they should be able to fit the bronze bushings for the king pins with there piston pin fitting machine....the sets with nylon bushings are quick fixes and unlike the OE parts....your best bet on this job is a local parts store with a machine shop...... stay away from the 'net you need the right parts.....
06-04-2013, 03:30 PM
#5
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Thanks for the thought on the hard (very hard) pull to the right under braking. I might add.. as looking into that;
* Removed all drums to inspect brakes and wheel cyl (for leakage)
* Brakes look about 90% new. Wheel cyl had no signs of leaking. All looked pretty new in there
* Sciuff sanded the shoes and inside of drums 'just in case' some contamination was on them I was not seeing
* Adjusted brakes on all 4 wheels
* Bleed all 4 lines
Still pulls had right under braking (but oddly.. it is the left king pin that is real sloppy, not the right). Right has 'some' play.
Bruins.. yes.. wow !!!!!
* Removed all drums to inspect brakes and wheel cyl (for leakage)
* Brakes look about 90% new. Wheel cyl had no signs of leaking. All looked pretty new in there
* Sciuff sanded the shoes and inside of drums 'just in case' some contamination was on them I was not seeing
* Adjusted brakes on all 4 wheels
* Bleed all 4 lines
Still pulls had right under braking (but oddly.. it is the left king pin that is real sloppy, not the right). Right has 'some' play.
Bruins.. yes.. wow !!!!!
06-04-2013, 03:57 PM
#6
The exact same symptoms happened on my 60 and it turned out to be a wheel hose. It looked fine on the outside but the inside had collapsed.
http://www.keenparts.com/Graphics/photos/500131.jpg
http://www.keenparts.com/Graphics/photos/500131.jpg
06-04-2013, 04:01 PM
#8
Le Mans Master
What about your brake hoses???? A collapsed hose would cause that sharp brake pulling you describe. King pin installation is pretty straight forward. I used a Moog Kit that I bought several years ago and it went fine. Be prepared to heat the old king pins with a torch to get them out, they are often rusted solidly in there. You should NOT have to ream anything to get the new ones to fit. 
Pilot Dan
Pilot Dan
06-04-2013, 05:02 PM
#9
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Feb 2004
Location: Norcal CA
Posts: 6,717
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2018 C1 of Year Finalist
I recently met a person who owns a 61. He switched over the jim myers IFS and was looking to sell the front end pieces (spindles and supports). If you do have to replace the spindles I am sure he would sell the entire set. Just offering is all. I would bet your problem if it is a spindle is that the bushing is worn. I do not know how much.
In the past, I had someone press in the bushings. The shop reamed the bushings to fit the kingpins. It was over 10 years ago so I cannot remember if there was an issue or not...
In the past, I had someone press in the bushings. The shop reamed the bushings to fit the kingpins. It was over 10 years ago so I cannot remember if there was an issue or not...
06-04-2013, 10:39 PM
#10
Burning Brakes
Rember when adjustig brakes to losen the top anchor bolt that the shoes pivot on to center the shoes. When I did my king pins the spindle was oversize by .005 had to have bushes made up to suit.
06-04-2013, 11:45 PM
#11
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Thanks all for the posts so far. This is somewhat of an enigma....
I am tempted to take a vidio and put a link here to it. I mean, if one hits the brakes with hands not holding the wheel (not even especially hard braking) the steering wheel will literally 'snap' full lock to lock to the right.
* On the hoses suggestions... I am thinking that they bled fine (nice stream coming out) so I am thinking not a collapsed hose. When yours were collapsed could you still bleed the brakes where the bad hose was ?
* Wheel bearigs; As part of troubleshooting while I had all the drums off I repacked the inner and outer bearings (not that I thought that would be the culprit, but fig I'd just repack while it was all apart while inspecting everything).
* 'losen the top anchor bolt...' Humm.. let me look into that. That is not something I've done in the past when adjusting shoes. While the drums were off I disassembled and lubed up the adjusters. I could hit the shoes back and forth (was testing that they were not binding up on their movement). Is there a lock bolt on the engine side of the backing plate that locks down the tops of the shoes ? I usually tighten shoes up until there is a trace of drag. Make the drag on all four wheels about the same.
* I read on a 47 - 53 Chevy site that when one person did their king pins a pesky 'darting when braking' issue went away. My left king pin is pretty loose. I wonder if under braking that loosness allows the toe to dramatically shift on that left wheel ?
* I pulled back the rubbers on the wheel cyl, no leakage present. A thought I have is that maybe the left cyl although not leaking is not doing a full travel in the bore, making the right side brake more than the left side. I'll pull apart that left froint cyl to see what the bores look like tomorrow after work
* I'll order the king pins tomorrow (think I'll use Zip Covette) to have them by Fri. Chg the king pins (left needs it anyway) and see if that fixes the 'right darting' issue.
Last.. as an aside... New to the 59 technology (I a;lso have a 67 Vette, 65 GTO, as well as number of 30's + 40's cars + trucks), I am surprised to see that this front end is little changed (king pins, drag links, etc) from my 38 Ply Cpe ! I would have thought being a Vette and 20+ years newer it would have been a bit more contemporary on the front suspension.
I am tempted to take a vidio and put a link here to it. I mean, if one hits the brakes with hands not holding the wheel (not even especially hard braking) the steering wheel will literally 'snap' full lock to lock to the right.
* On the hoses suggestions... I am thinking that they bled fine (nice stream coming out) so I am thinking not a collapsed hose. When yours were collapsed could you still bleed the brakes where the bad hose was ?
* Wheel bearigs; As part of troubleshooting while I had all the drums off I repacked the inner and outer bearings (not that I thought that would be the culprit, but fig I'd just repack while it was all apart while inspecting everything).
* 'losen the top anchor bolt...' Humm.. let me look into that. That is not something I've done in the past when adjusting shoes. While the drums were off I disassembled and lubed up the adjusters. I could hit the shoes back and forth (was testing that they were not binding up on their movement). Is there a lock bolt on the engine side of the backing plate that locks down the tops of the shoes ? I usually tighten shoes up until there is a trace of drag. Make the drag on all four wheels about the same.
* I read on a 47 - 53 Chevy site that when one person did their king pins a pesky 'darting when braking' issue went away. My left king pin is pretty loose. I wonder if under braking that loosness allows the toe to dramatically shift on that left wheel ?
* I pulled back the rubbers on the wheel cyl, no leakage present. A thought I have is that maybe the left cyl although not leaking is not doing a full travel in the bore, making the right side brake more than the left side. I'll pull apart that left froint cyl to see what the bores look like tomorrow after work
* I'll order the king pins tomorrow (think I'll use Zip Covette) to have them by Fri. Chg the king pins (left needs it anyway) and see if that fixes the 'right darting' issue.
Last.. as an aside... New to the 59 technology (I a;lso have a 67 Vette, 65 GTO, as well as number of 30's + 40's cars + trucks), I am surprised to see that this front end is little changed (king pins, drag links, etc) from my 38 Ply Cpe ! I would have thought being a Vette and 20+ years newer it would have been a bit more contemporary on the front suspension.
Last edited by 65GTO; 06-05-2013 at 10:10 AM.
06-05-2013, 12:18 PM
#13
Race Director
The Corvette, being limited production, kept the late 1940s era suspension long after the higher volume sedans went to something more modern in 1955. Only after it was assured the car was going to survive, and be bought in sufficient numbers were cutting edge (for the time) technologies used on it.
500,000 Tempest/GTO vs 10,000 Corvettes/year...
A collapsed hose only collapses under pressure, it is because fluid is leaking from inner hose to annulus between inner and outer hose, and pressure application shuts teh hose off.
Doug
500,000 Tempest/GTO vs 10,000 Corvettes/year...
A collapsed hose only collapses under pressure, it is because fluid is leaking from inner hose to annulus between inner and outer hose, and pressure application shuts teh hose off.
Doug
06-05-2013, 12:34 PM
#14
Team Owner
Personally, some of the oddball, antiquated, persnickety technology on the old C1s is what endears them to me. Steel cables on pulleys sawing away under the dash to operate the wipers ? It doesn't get much better than that !
Anybody can work on/drive the later stuff.
Anybody can work on/drive the later stuff.
06-05-2013, 04:53 PM
#16
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Hi All:
Thanks again for the replies.. yes.. although work freq takes me from Boston to Pitt.. .Go Buins !!!
On the 'Extreem Darting to the Right Issue'... I just ordered a bunch of parts from Zip Corvette. King Pin Kit, brake hoses, wheel cylinders for front, and tie rod ends (the right-outter is def at its end of life... don't think that is the issue... bad, but not 'horrible' bad... but ordered it anyway).
I'll take a process of elimination and keep eveyone posted as a learning experiance what cured the issue. I'll start with the king pins (needs replacing anyway). See if that was the cure. Then do the left front hose, and keep trying one thing at a time.
I will take a video of the car while driving and stepping on the brakes so people can see how wildly the steering wheel snaps full lock to the right under even light to normal braking. That way in the futire if others have the same 'darting under braking' issue they can see the symptom, and I'll step by step what I did until the issue went away.
Might be some educational value in it to others on the forum.
Bummer... Zip told me yesterday 'order by tomorrow' and you will have it on Fri. What they did not tell me (Auughhh !!!!! ) was that I needed to place my parts order today before 3:00 PM. Now I will not have any of my parts until Monday... so there goes doing this over this weekend. I was mad enough I wanted to tell them 'forget it' on the order and go to a local Car Quest (but suspect they cannot get a king pin set).
Thanks again.
Thanks again for the replies.. yes.. although work freq takes me from Boston to Pitt.. .Go Buins !!!
On the 'Extreem Darting to the Right Issue'... I just ordered a bunch of parts from Zip Corvette. King Pin Kit, brake hoses, wheel cylinders for front, and tie rod ends (the right-outter is def at its end of life... don't think that is the issue... bad, but not 'horrible' bad... but ordered it anyway).
I'll take a process of elimination and keep eveyone posted as a learning experiance what cured the issue. I'll start with the king pins (needs replacing anyway). See if that was the cure. Then do the left front hose, and keep trying one thing at a time.
I will take a video of the car while driving and stepping on the brakes so people can see how wildly the steering wheel snaps full lock to the right under even light to normal braking. That way in the futire if others have the same 'darting under braking' issue they can see the symptom, and I'll step by step what I did until the issue went away.
Might be some educational value in it to others on the forum.
Bummer... Zip told me yesterday 'order by tomorrow' and you will have it on Fri. What they did not tell me (Auughhh !!!!! ) was that I needed to place my parts order today before 3:00 PM. Now I will not have any of my parts until Monday... so there goes doing this over this weekend. I was mad enough I wanted to tell them 'forget it' on the order and go to a local Car Quest (but suspect they cannot get a king pin set).
Thanks again.
Last edited by 65GTO; 06-05-2013 at 04:59 PM.
06-18-2013, 05:39 PM
#17
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Hi All – Again.. thanks for the helpful tips on the thread. Here is a belated update;
* Finally got my parts from Zip Corvette
* Bought pretty much everything from King Pins to Brake Hoses to Tie Rod ends
* I think violent pull the right on braking is related to the badly worn left king pin. Again… see all I have already done to try to remedy the symptom.
I was going to do one step at a time until the symptom went away. Hopefully that would provide some education on the forum for symptom vs remedy (after having already done the obvious checks on the brakes)
So.. been busy with an aging mom, with health issues… so the only time I have had was to try the easiest change 1st.
Collapsed Brake Line; There seems a consensus on this as a cause. Drum roll please……
Changed the left brake hose, bled brakes… re-adjusted both front brakes again for the 20th time just for good measure…. no change… still a violent pull to right on braking.
Changed the right brake hose, bled brakes…. no change… still a violent pull to right on braking.
So… replacing the front brake hoses did nothing. On the bright side… the hoses were starting (just starting) to get hard… so not a total waste of time.
Again.. time at a premium right now. Next ‘easiest chg’… I’ll rebuild the front wheel cylinders in case the left one is not extending fully and letting the right brake do more work. After that.. right outer tie rod end.. pretty worn. Last (no time right now) do the king pins.
I’ll keep everyone posted.
Note… This is all a mute point (maybe) as I am considering doing the Master Brake disc brake conversion kit. King pins and tie rods would still be an issue. So I will go through all the above before I contemplate the disc conversion.. if for no other reason than to see what fixes the darting to the right under braking.
* Finally got my parts from Zip Corvette
* Bought pretty much everything from King Pins to Brake Hoses to Tie Rod ends
* I think violent pull the right on braking is related to the badly worn left king pin. Again… see all I have already done to try to remedy the symptom.
I was going to do one step at a time until the symptom went away. Hopefully that would provide some education on the forum for symptom vs remedy (after having already done the obvious checks on the brakes)
So.. been busy with an aging mom, with health issues… so the only time I have had was to try the easiest change 1st.
Collapsed Brake Line; There seems a consensus on this as a cause. Drum roll please……
Changed the left brake hose, bled brakes… re-adjusted both front brakes again for the 20th time just for good measure…. no change… still a violent pull to right on braking.
Changed the right brake hose, bled brakes…. no change… still a violent pull to right on braking.
So… replacing the front brake hoses did nothing. On the bright side… the hoses were starting (just starting) to get hard… so not a total waste of time.
Again.. time at a premium right now. Next ‘easiest chg’… I’ll rebuild the front wheel cylinders in case the left one is not extending fully and letting the right brake do more work. After that.. right outer tie rod end.. pretty worn. Last (no time right now) do the king pins.
I’ll keep everyone posted.
Note… This is all a mute point (maybe) as I am considering doing the Master Brake disc brake conversion kit. King pins and tie rods would still be an issue. So I will go through all the above before I contemplate the disc conversion.. if for no other reason than to see what fixes the darting to the right under braking.
06-18-2013, 07:10 PM
#18
Racer
Could it be that the left wheel cylinder is frozen?
A quick test would be to jack up the left wheel, have someone push the brake pedal and see if the wheel will still turn.
Just a thought.
Rod
A quick test would be to jack up the left wheel, have someone push the brake pedal and see if the wheel will still turn.
Just a thought.
Rod
06-18-2013, 11:23 PM
#19
Safety Car
Are both shoes in each wheel pulling evenly?
Are both front drums true? Try changing them from side to side for fun.
Paul
06-20-2013, 12:01 AM
#20
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Hi All Again...
To answert the most recent questions; as part of basic trouble shooting (amoung other things already noted in thread);
* I pulled back the dust caps on the wheel cyl to see if there were any leaks. Nope... completely dry.
* Did have my gal step on the brakes to see if the left wheel was braking. It was. Harder that I could turn the wheel. Does not necessarily mean it was braking as hard as the right side, but it was braking. So the left wheel cyl is working. One theory was that although working, binding uo at the end of travel. Long shot... but not difficult to do a quick rebuild of the wheel cyl while in the car. See if it makes any diff.
I like the idea od swapping the brake drums across the sides. I will give that a try. The left is slightly out of round compared to the right side. On addjusting the brakes, I need to leave the left a smidge ( I mean a small smidge) looser than the right side to compensate for having too much drag when the out roundness drags on the shoes at that high spot on the rotation.
But yeah.. swapping drums... good next step. King pins (which I think is the gremlin) will have to wait to I have more time.
Thanks !
Jim
To answert the most recent questions; as part of basic trouble shooting (amoung other things already noted in thread);
* I pulled back the dust caps on the wheel cyl to see if there were any leaks. Nope... completely dry.
* Did have my gal step on the brakes to see if the left wheel was braking. It was. Harder that I could turn the wheel. Does not necessarily mean it was braking as hard as the right side, but it was braking. So the left wheel cyl is working. One theory was that although working, binding uo at the end of travel. Long shot... but not difficult to do a quick rebuild of the wheel cyl while in the car. See if it makes any diff.
I like the idea od swapping the brake drums across the sides. I will give that a try. The left is slightly out of round compared to the right side. On addjusting the brakes, I need to leave the left a smidge ( I mean a small smidge) looser than the right side to compensate for having too much drag when the out roundness drags on the shoes at that high spot on the rotation.
But yeah.. swapping drums... good next step. King pins (which I think is the gremlin) will have to wait to I have more time.
Thanks !
Jim