TCracingCA

That would probably bore most of you, but at the introduction of the C3, they basically in these weekend slalom events relegated most of the C2's to also ran status, except for the top drivers with good setup cars. With the wider C3 tires and the extra cube inches of the jump from 327 to 350, it caused a disparity in the competition for awhile. The rules limited the tire width increases and therefore it didn't equalize until C2 and C3 cars were allowed to run the same sizes after throwing out the old rule. Also finally guys with the 327 yanked them in mass, to go to the LT-1's. Case in point many of the individuals talked about here. They were running 350's in their C2 cars, which is why it happened. Therefore that is historical in the history of our cars. So like with your car Rex, Terry jumped to the larger cubes, when the rules allowed it! So he lost the original engine! Also it was proven out constantly, that the big blocks were not suited for the slalom and continued to be known more suited for track competition. The small blocks mostly ruled these weekend events with a few exceptions like with McCosh, Wingate, etc... Their cars were built with suspension pieces and springs that allowed proper utilization of a big block. And then when the cars got flared, and the tires larger- the big blocks could put it down better, but so could the small block cars and things like lightening the cars was occurring in a major way which lead to new classes like the ASR, BSR. Thus tracking the SCCA and Solo I historically is so interesting to me.

PS even going back it was similar for the C1 cars, when the C2 appeared.

TCracingCA

Questions and Theories.

As you see Kathy's car stayed pretty much the same thru the years of competition. It was a very good car. The SCCSCC catered to the wishes of the enthusiast interested in modifications. Therefore cars got flares and engine changes. Then you had the husband/wife teams where now a female driver was jumping into a monster car with wide rubber and aftermarket goodies. Thus it speaks highly to Kathy's car handling capability and the solid nature of this car to place in a field of car that were getting radically modified. But then at a certain point, I can see that the gravitation toward the WSCC who wrote rules that would allow everyone from stock to modified a class to run in. Then just as the SCCSCC basically caused a divide, they followed suite with the integration of more classes and catered eventually to all types of cars (stock to modified), but coincidently Solo I based on SCCA influence arrived at about this time and thus, those Modified cars went there, leaving the Solo II as a place where cars like Kathy's car still had a home! And everyone knows the WSCC/NCCC eventually gravitated more toward the NCRS movement in the latter years. They had less hardcore competitive events and more fun type stuff. The hardcore then returned to the SCCA who had gained control over what was the SCCSCC and essentially the hardcore crowd of WSCC guys/gals with their control of the Solo I and Solo II


Ps if you follow Texas, Florida, Ohio etc. the same stuff was essentially happening in the NCCC and at club levels and interaction with the SCCA. It was kind of Country wide the trends for competition events and conventions and how cars were modified or classed. The WSCC had to integrate initially the SCCSCC/NCSCC type guys because a core of the Clubs that joined had these members. So all of this influenced the major organization that were the WSCC and the NCCC.


PS Matt- you can see why I fight you for literature! It isn't just a Cloyde thing, it is more of my interest in the history overall. But since you have all of this literature now, I had better be nice to you!

But Matt, I found a San Diego WSCC Convention poster from Bill Cook's actual garage. It is kind of really in bad condition, but I have a photo paper copy of it for trade for copies of something. I don't really need the orginals of anything, even though I would like to have that for my former Owner, but I know the value of original!

TCracingCA

Thank you, this is a far better picture than what I was able to copy. Much appreciated.

mattnSD

Derek,
Between the kids and work, I can barely keep my head above water. Honestly, your email last night got me back "into the game" for the moment. Thank you for thinking of me. Between the newsletters, racing results, trophies, Kathy's memory, and Rex's thread here...I eventually want to put all the pieces together like you are doing. As Ive mentioned before, Im happy to have you or anyone else come by and have a beer with me one Sat or Sun and go through it! The fun thing about this stuff is that it keeps popping up and keeps providing a fun experience for me with the car. Sadly, its hard to imagine owning another car that will give me the joy of Kathy's. Just like you and Cloyde's...and Rex with Terry's, etc. Just understand...if I dont get back to anyone on here for awhile...its because life is getting in the way! (In fact....I think I just heard the baby waking up from her nap!...will check back-in tonight)

Dr L-88

Thanks Matt for those two pics of Dianne. Anything and everything relevant to my car is always much appreciated and I'm sure you and Derek feel the same.

Thanks

Rex

TCracingCA

I just like California car history as you guys can tell. Actually my car history projects go far beyond just Corvette and California! I hate to not finish things, but it happens. I had reason myself to pull things out again, for Erik (Cobra visitor), then some stuff happened. Then I started on it again, to have other things happen and it was cluttering up my desk, so I grabbed some of it and started on it again after I found the last piece for Rex, then got busy on other things again, got rid of my 5th car that was b;ocking my garage, switched around some of the garages and where I have stuff parked, installed a new security system. And took a road trip which included the Big Bore Bash at Willow Springs and a date with a piece of fish at a restaurant up in Morro Bay! I am working right now on assembly of a heavy duty shelf unit for the garage to get crap off of the top of it my good car, so I can work on it. Just took a drink break and suddenly felt sick! I am more gearing toward the history of the era and less on the results, because those are near impossible to find! What I find is maybe the top winner or the first few places, but not the entire results. The same goes for the racing stuff SCCA Regionals/Nationals that I work on! Therefore I concentrate on who entered the race or grids, because the results just aren't around. Also on who the competitors where and what car were they driving. When I do get time for stuff like this, it is more in the style of a research looking for crucial stories about the politics and such. I crunch together notes and dates and places which would bore most. It just isn't a process where I pick something up and just read it. Eventually I will extrapoliate every names or event or whatever from every piece of literature that I handle, converting them to raw notes like with some of the season event listings that I shared. It bothers me having holes in the data. I actually enjoy crunching data. Thus one day on like the raw listings, I will fill in those blanks where I am missing a venue or date or Organizing club and such. In the mean time, if I see something on our people, I can share it.

PS I didn't think anyone was ignoring me, I never let that happen! I stay active enough on lunch breaks, water breaks or during bad television to post something or other. I am fine! My guy wasn't as big time as so many of the other competitors. Even my Father I discovered was more limitedly involved with all of this than what I thought. He was going to meetings with the very first GRA group formed. Then he moved to Hacienda Heights and stopped attending, then the head of GRA moved out to Riverside and he lost participation during that time. Then it wasn't until one of my Brothers got involved that they dusted off that family car and took it back out sporatically. Rejoined GRA, competed in SCCA Solo II again as some video I posted that my Brother had digital and then they stopped again around 1993 when they were at odds. I figured out that we went to the Lone Pine thing in the 1970's once! And figured out a few events that he did compete in back in the 60's/70's but he would drive it thru the cones more for fun usually knocking them over or to show off doing burnouts or power slides (not a course racer!) and then park and just hang out. He did quite a number of the Corvette drags, but obviously liked to red light alot! I found film taken by my mother of him running down Lions Drag Strip in his 1964 Coupe. So I have a pretty clear picture of what the family cars have actually done.

I do stay disappointed in that this stuff is getting shared by enthusiast that are finding stuff or acquiring stuff that weren't involved directly and not the guys that were there (with a few exceptions like Kathy and the stuff Brian got from his Father)! But then I see a generous gift of someone handing over relevent literature and that is neat to see.

TCracingCA

In 1965, it was 55 clubs with a total of 600 cars that had competed, it was on the decline some and consisted in 1969 of 40 plus Clubs of all competition minded folks!

The Alpha Owners
Astrovettes
Brushrunners
CASCC
Cavalier Corvettes Limited
CLICK
Clippinger (CVCC)
The Cobra Owners
Corvettes Limited
Corvettes of SoCal
Corvette Super Sports (I was a member along time ago!)
Corvettes Unlimited
Datsun Owners Club
El Conejo Sports Car Club
Foothill Foreign Car Club
Galpin Ford Mustang Club
Guldstrand Racing Association (GRA)
Les Chevaux Mechaniques
Long Beach MG
Lotus West
Marina del rey Corvettes
Mavericks
etc....

and I am tired of typing, but it was quite the Organization and corvette club heavy, so you can see how that would conflict with the WSCC. , SCCSCC by 1976 had about 23 Clubs as the organizing member outfits, but welcomed non-club participants at these events where at the peak the fields were full and they reserved slots for the club members first and if their was room to accept additional entrants, then they would do so if the venue could support it.

Ps I might get out like the Blue Bars Magazine collection and share similar hot cars from similar levels of Corvettes competing nationally. When like the WSCC met, it just wasn't California cars at the top. One year the NCCC/WSCC had a joint Convention and I really wish I could look at the Slalom results from that Event.

TCracingCA

Some of the CSC guys that were into Drag Racing actually crewed on the Gene Conway Corvette Funny Car "Sticks Unlimited car" (blown small block running 7's at like 191mph! At the 3rd Annual corvette Drags they had 8 funny cars do an exhibition match off. This is how they met and became part of his pit crew. At the 4th, they didn't do the Funny cars and also just did Corvettes only (no camaros or Corvairs like in the first three years as field fillers.



Also Diane was only one of two to step up and compete from her club at the 2nd Annual All Corvette Drags. I now am not sure if Terry did. He might have been car less for some time after the divorce. He did the Daytona NCCC with Dave King, he went to the New Year Party with Dave and his new wife which wasn't an event on New Years! He was not listed in the club event standings thru most of the 1970 year. I am going to go back thru the thread on Terry to refresh my memory. It looks like he popped up fully involved in the early 1971 year, and prior was hanging out/living with Dave King.

TCracingCA

I have met him, I think when I hung out a couple of times with the Corvette Super Sports club back in the 1980's. He had one of either the Sebring or Lemans C1 racers that he had found and sold (I could look up which car that was!). I have the For sale ad on that car! He lived close by where my Family lived, Tom living in La habra. I will post up a picture of him from back in the day once I find one. He has been around the hobby for a long time also!

TCracingCA

He was one of the guys that took the pictures and kept the records for the club. cool that he shared this stuff. Here is an interview about him being one of the prominent club members.

jimgessner

Here are few photos of the car today.




THE CAR HAS A ''QUICK FILL'' GAS CAP, vs the ugly standard OEM Original.
IT IS AMAZING THE PAINT HAS LASTED ALL THESE YEARS. THE CAR TODAY HAS BEEN SHOWN AT BIG EASTERN INDOOR CAR EVENTS AND IS ALWAYS A STAR OF THE SHOW.




ALL THE RACE RECORDS AND ORIGINAL RACE PHOTOS OF THE CAR ARE STILL WITH ALL THE PAPERWORK.

1962 to 66 history is missing. Tom Mazzola 66-69 2nd owner, then went to Tuscon, AZ. Good friend Ed Stone also raced the car with Tom. Ed saved the scrape book of photos and history. Car appears in Corvette News, Vol #12- 1, Oct-Nov 68, page 14 bottom left with Tom in the driver seat. (ABOVE PHOTO)

Bob & Virgina Michaels 69-71

Frank Birch 71-73

Gene Layne 73-03

Steve Schwab 03-06

John Justo 06- present.

We think, but can not confirm that Don Steves Chevrolet, LaHabra, CA originally sold the car.

456 gear in the car……but originally 4:11.
6 inch service replacement wheels. Brakes and suspension RPO 687 Heavy duty and are 100% original including dust shields.
Paint is original with added black stripes and accents from the original owner or Tom. Roll bar added by original owner.

Car was raced in California since new. Records indicate SCCA and SCC-SCC Auto Cross events from 1962 thru 1973.
65200 original miles


DOES ANYONE KNOW WHERE TOM IS? WE WOULD LOVE TO FIND HIM AND HAVE HIM GET REUNITED WITH THE CAR.

TCracingCA

I love my fellow Whittier Boulevard cars. I can check easily if it was raced in the slaloms from new! I am pretty sure it was an acquired threw Don Steves Chevrolet cars which would have drawn my attention to a C1 which is usually not my area of interest, even though they are cool. In that picture, I am sure that is the original dealership frame, so when I get home-- I can look to see whether the picture is clearer and I can read who it is. Also the guy bought all of the modifications and I personally think the Heavy duty stuff was added as Don Steves Chevrolet did that often. He was connected up and brought in all of that stuff for the racers, but then his dealership thru my acquaintenance with him, did get his fair share of the hot models especially after and during the Davey MacDonald era of Sponsorship! I assume someone has something that this was an RPO 687. I can probably see if that comes up, because I know I have seen other stuff very early on this car in print. That picture is the car parked in La Habra, in front of his house. I have his addresses! I will have to back track his Club involvement. The Corvette Super Sports guys were more track racing enthusiast and didn't do the slaloms like most of the other clubs. A lot of the members were the racers- like Davey MacDonald, even Bob Bondurant and Dick Guldstrand for a short while. Thus he ended up with one of the other clubs, but living in La Habra still had association with Corvette Super Sports and other clubs especially with his stint working with the WSCC. All of these guys knew each other, from the other clubs.

Also just from the style of paint job touches, and based on some of the modifications on this car, I am pretty sure I know which paint shop did those and what shop worked on it, for more major things.

But I am really pleased to see another actual Whittier Boulevard cruising car still being loved!!!!!

PS the restructure of the Corvette Race Car Registry locked me out from viewing, unless I pay. I am not much of an organization joining person normally. So oh well! But as you can see, I have more than done my part in sharing generally!

TCracingCA

PS the WSCC kind of stabilized about the latter part of 1973 and was solid as an Organization by 1974. 1970-1972 were the rocky years! The NCCA was the first known Organized Corvette Club in the entire Country. Them and Camino Corvettes also from up north in California also was a major force winning during these periods over half of the available trophies in all WSCC competitions whether (Slalom, Rallye or Concourse). The rules basically for a lot of the organizations from SCCSCC vice NCSCC and WSCC and IMSA, And SCCA etc. were pretty much ironed out around the 1972 season is what is appearing to have happened. The WSCC started the multi classes of A, B, C system and other classes. Whereas the SCCSCC kind of was stuck in a two class system- either stock or modified. It took them awhile to accept a class that was stock based, but maybe with aftermarket rims and other basic modifications. They used to require those cars to run with the big boys.

For Matt, I also was studying some of the WSCC results and I don't think Kathy was big on attending those Pre-Convention events because most of those dates conflicted with the SCCSCC Competition. Thus didn't find anything on her going to Bakersfield, Riverside and one other Pre Convention, but I don't have my notes here at work. But then she definitely did the 1969 San Diego, and then the 1970 Vancouver, I don't think she did San Jose. I didn't see that she went to the first one in Denver, but naturally still checking things! The Riverside Pre-Convention started the drama, and the joint NCCC/WSCC planned for St. Louis 1972 was the powder keg that blew up everyones opinions and caused the feud. Plus the major players in the various Clubs were generating Rules changes and Carver and the other guy were well liked, but not when it came to accepting revisions to the Competition classes and rules. It was like a Dictatorship is what some of the Clubs thought. But then the history is even more interesting in that NCSCC seemed to out match the Southern California Clubs of the SCCSCC, so they were in wars (more respectful to each other) over tires, and modifications etc.. themselves. I actually would place the Northern California guys at the tops of the Competition Slalom built cars, but actually would put guys out of Texas second. I am finding Texas cars really interesting during all of these early years where these various groups were trying to find themselves!

jimgessner

I like your history about WSCC and NCCC. The SCCA and CAL CLUB had similar problems in 1960-61. It got so bad, Bondurant stopped racing for 9 months.

BILL THOMAS and DAVE MACDONALD both worked for Don Steves. Much of that history is on Dave's website

www.davemacdonald.net/

TCracingCA

Jim just think what I could scrape up as far as more dirt if I had more literature!

Yes his wife and family valued all of his accomplishment and kept every picture of him. He really rocketed to the top and was Celebrity based on how he connected to people and even his competitors spoke highly of him and his talent. A similar example would be like how AJ Foyt was never complimentary about any other driver, but then suddenly he felt the need to openly compliment the driving skills of two drivers that I know of, which were Jimmy Clark and Dan Gurney, oh ya Parneli Jones also, but that compliment didn't come across that way and i think it had a bunch of adjectives. Therefore a similar thing was happening with MacDonald's ability, being described as being at a different level by the other talent on course. PS he grew up driving within a few miles of my place, so I love the history on that site and they keep adding to it.

As for the initial formation of the WSCC, they started out great in 1966 after a number of phopas related to Denver. Everyone saw the instant good idea of such an organization and the club count grew. Politics can get into good things and good intentions. But the key to the success of the Organization was the enthusiasm and hospitality demonstrated by each of the hosting Clubs! And the members that traveled from other regions were left with great impressions and role model hosting that was carried back to their locals.

PS I have known Mr. Bondurant since 1980, completing his SCCA/IMSA level licensing Course.



PS yes, Cal Club (CSCC) should have ditched SCCA long ago!

TCracingCA

Which was while working with the San Diego Automotive Museum back in the very early 1990's, were I was constantly driving my bucket list! I in the last few days actually had a chance to go onto Websites for WSCC, NCCA, Corvette SuperSports and a number of other clubs and their histories on their own organizations sucks! I honestly don't believe any of them did their own organizations proud, with what they have in the way of histories posted up!!!!! Therefore I am sure this type of history gets broken or lost by members over the years that just aren't interested in anything other than the modern happenings. What did you Club Officers do when you inherited the reins? What! just found a bunch of dusty stuff on a shelf and to make room, chucked it all in the trash? But then I bet there are some long term members that have stuff, but surprised by the lack of historical content that might possibly be out their in the hands of guys that might have it, that participated or that were members of these clubs back in the day! Funny how some people love history, and others just have no interest in it.

Well related to the WSCC saga! I found how it was fixed in 1973 by the current acting President. He and the other Officers (got to respect them and how they pulled it off) put it to the Clubs with a rules revision and amendments etc.. but doing so with intelligence to not schedule on weekends that conflicted with the general clubs other interests or Marque events planned. They made it mandatory for attendance and voting, and put down a bunch of guidelines geared at the Clubs status within the WSCC, taking a real stance. In other words, they took charge and took no prisoners, and it actually was respected and it helped strengthen the Organization allowing it to grow. I can put that up sometime in the next few days, if anyone is interested.

PS Rex, I found where Dianne was put in charge of the chug-a-lug competition at the 1974 Convention and have a picture of her with a pitcher. The more I come across related to her, she was cool (Drag racer, Slalom Competitor, Corvette Owner, Chug-A-Lug competitor!). I remember being at the 1974 WSCC Convention with my Father and a friend of the family and it popped into my head suddenly the other day, that the Slalom Course for that event was actually layed out in that parking lot, in the shape of the actual Riverside Raceway course!

I was trying to remember what all Car Races and events I attended and started a list of those growing up!!! I don't remember them all, but we went to the Can Am cars at the Times GP, the F-5000s, etc. in 1967 (the car colors stood out), 1969 (the high wing movement stood out), 1970 (that vacuum car), 1971 (Bruce McLaren not being there), 1972 (the blue slabbed sided McLarens, and the heavy sponsorship of RC and the others), 1973 (naturally Donohues 917/30 way out in front and how he skid the back tires about the same amount lap after lap), 1975 (the snorkels on the F-5000s), 1976 (more snorkels!) etc..etc.. And I was doing the same for other venues like Ontario Motor Speedway- like the vivid memory at the Camel GT where Greenwood on the opening lap is leading all of the Porsche Carreras out onto the banking! Cool memories!

Dr L-88

Thanks Derek !!! I'm in contact with Dianne and she really enjoys seeing old pics of her and the car. Can you email any new finds to me so I can add to my data book on the car and Terry?

As always.........................THANKS VERY much.

TCracingCA

But you had better ask her if she wants the beer chug picture put on the forum first? Also there is one that looks like Terry outside of the car and her inside, like they are handling the final paperwork, but I am not good with faces. If I didn't look in the mirror daily, I probably would forget who I am! I also go thru mode were I find some stuff, but run out of time to post, because I am looking for stuff to post. And then I have the opposite problem where I might have time to post a few new finds, but no time to find anything more!

I was hunting down the Whittier cruiser C1, to figure out what it actually was, they know it's a RPO687, but don't know what dealership originally???? That is one of those head scratchers for me!!!!! But I knowing it is a neighborhood cruiser, do hope truly that it is special. I just don't know how all of these former WSCC/NCCC Presidents that owned it can make that big leap over the mystery canyon!!!!!! Maybe they were doing Corvette identity séances at those Conventions in the back rooms, instead of just having belly dancers at like the 1974 Convention!

Ok I just looked up what mecum Auctions had on the red car! Ok, I get it! But way before most of these top Corvette guys were Corvette guys, Tom sold one of the actual Sebring Racers! That was a different car than the red car! Therefore i better stop there, so i don't end up in a conversion like with the 1967 L-88 cars!

Dr L-88

Well I wouldn't want to jeopardize my friendship with her by posting a "compromising" photo. Can you email it to me first for me to review?

TCracingCA

I have asked each and everyone of them for the sake of the participants in this thread, if they had any memories of your people Rex, or of Matt's gal, etc.. I have talked to a few of the Cavalier guys, early on tried to engage Guldstrand in a conversation about it, but I don't think that was his thing being more of a racer. I have run across an NCCA guy and a Associates LTD guy and a few others. I haven't tried to run down like Wingate, because to date three people have said they were either talking to him or might get some records. I haven't per se tried to get in touch with other Clippinger people, because others on here seemed to have associations and such, and the same with the Socal guys, and Limited and some of the other groups. My family had a falling out with the GRA over their politics in what is a fun sport, so I am not going there, but most of those guys don't know me, but my Brother still unfortunately rips on them. So I would assume that the same is happening with you guys! My approach usually in a conversation is that a number of us have been working on histories related to the old slalom days and have posted up and shared stuff on the Corvette forum, do you remember anything about Angell, Hildebrands, Betchner/Lee, the Hedekins, Hearns, Wilson, and other names associate with cars that have popped up on this thread. I would say it would suck, if anyone was just solely interested in just their individual former Owner and forgets to ask about some of the other participants in the thread that have shared. That is how I have gotten a few pieces of information for others or a few of the records, or finds that I have posted and a few that were given to a few people or how I have gotten some of the narrative on the ins and outs of what was happening, the evolution, or structure. Two weeks ago, I visited the Aero Museum at the Santa Maria Airport where the Golden State Grand Prix's were held hosting the invitationals for more than 10 years for this slalom stuff and left my name/phone number like I have done a number of times like at Cal Club, The Riverside Raceway Museum and other places, hoping to get more leads!

My present project is basically unchanged related to this, is first and foremost the completion of the list of events as the basis for everything. If we don't know the events, where, when, what club sponsored-- then it would be impossible to potentially recreate any individuals scope of participation. If I could ask for anything, it would be more of the overall results year to year (placements at the end of the season by the various competitors, because I have enough rule books that I can approximate the number of events and placements from working the math on the points systems awarded. Now that in itself is very complicated, because SCCSCC held only yea many events each year and those are the only points that we are seeing on their specific overall list of placings, but don't discount that many Slaloms held were Club ran and non-SCCSCC! There were open slaloms, time trials, and other stuff that did not accrue SCCSCC standings or points. And then some competitors had falling out, or were from clubs that weren't member SCCSCC, so they might not have been accredited with points that they rightfully should have gotten getting into an SCCSCC event. At some the Organizers would place such people, at the event and I have seen some identified with no club. Even Cormany and Sloma showed up at an event or two (found a record with them listed finally- no club) and ran in the early 1970 year. I was disappointed that a SCCA Regional Track car didn't do better, but these guys were not the every weekend autocrossers that had honed their skills! The last time I did that discipline without a warm up, it had been awhile and I came into everything too hot for the slick oiled up surface, and tended to plow the tires for the first couple of turns.

So far to date, I have not heard anything about this Angell guy from an actual competitior. Whether he was a good guy, fun to be around, what were his aspirations in competing etc.. Kind of frustrating assuming the same courtesy will be shown back. I walked around an entire Corvette Super Sport Club show and actual couldn't find anyone that was willing to talk- that had any real information to share on this topic of local competition, but some of them remembered that it was popular. Some of the names sounded familiar, but nothing substantial remembered, but then this wasn't one of the clubs heavily involved, but they were WSCC.

I showed the chug-a-lot picture to a couple of females and they thought it was cool, when I told them some of the history. So that picture is cool and I will get it up, but they definitely thought the two people exchanging paperwork, were not Terry or Dianne from comparison to another picture. So she is safe on that one, not her sitting in the car with papers (plus I determined that picture was 1974 and not earlier)! The thread is do you remember my car, so trust me I have asked quite a number of people into Corvettes like I said above about this stuff, especially for you Rex. From those, and I am not going to beat down someone willing to share something or another, or that vaguely remembers maybe something, but I am starting to think that was her car and not Terry's! He might have been driving it and enjoying it, but I think she bought it! And I am starting to think that he took stuff back off of it (that he had put into it or onto it, when they were together- which makes perfect sense and would have been fair for him to have his stuff back), since it seems to have been her car!