onedef92

We all know the Ford vs. Chevy battle is long-standing and in the early 1960's, both companies produced special GT models designed to dominate the racetrack...the Shelby Cobra Daytona and the Corvette Grand Sport.

Is it true the Grand Sport Corvette was not given the factory support necessary for success while Ford gave Carroll Shelby's Cobra effort full aid, resulting in a Le Mans victory?

What were the significants strengths/weaknesses of these coveted, legendary racers? I'm talking h.p., power-to-weight ratio, brakes, suspension geometry, the whole nine yards.

Thanks! :chevy

JohnZ

The Grand Sport was hobbled by GM's adherence to the AMA Racing Ban, which shut the Engineering program down cold after five had been built and left it to the privateers to keep the cars running. Only having five built also disqualified it from running in a Production Class in SCCA, and they had to run in the Prototype Class, right at the time when all the prototypes were switching from front-engine to mid-engine. Bad timing.

Shelby's Cobra (and GT-40) program had full Ford factory support (they ignored the AMA Racing Ban, which had been authored originally by GM), and the Cobras were much lighter than the Grand Sport to begin with, and the Cobras ran in Production classes against other front-engine cars, not in the Prototype Class. "A" and "B"-Production Corvettes were almost 700 pounds heavier than the same-class Cobras, and had no factory support.

Both cars had mediocre handling, but had incredible acceleration; the Cobras had poor aerodynamics for top speed, and the Grand Sports had a front-end lift problem that was never cured. That's why the World Championship was won by small-block Cobra Daytona Coupes, not roadsters - the European courses put a premium on top speed, and the Cobra roadsters weren't competitive in that situation.

DZAUTO

I must totally agree with every one of John's words. Period.

As some added comments. ALLLLLLLLLLLLL 5 of the original GS's are alive and well! Which is good. I envy the owners. I'd love to own one of them. BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT, have you ever observed a REAL 427 Cobra motivate down the pavement? Unbelieveably awsome. I'm a devoted Chevy person first and a GM person second. But if someone pulled up in front of my house with a genuine GS and a genuine 427 Cobra and told me I could have only one of them for free, no strings attached, --------------------------------------------------------------well, gosh, I might just take the brand X.

Maximillian

As far as power, power to weight ratio, accelleration and top-end are concerned, it's no contest. Shelby blew them away.

The Grand Sports were, I think, all 327 ci/ 360 horse (I don't believe any were ever produced with the planned 370 ci, overhead cam motors?), injected and weighed more than the goal weight which was 2000 pounds. I don't know how much more.

The Shelby 427 Cobra Daytona put out around 515 horsepower @7000 and weighed in at 2500 pounds.

63Corvette

Um.............If I could offer a small suggestion for all who want ot know the real history of the Grand Sport:
http://www.grandsportcorvette.com/

Pull up this page and then click on the "Grand Sport " Icon.

Maximillian

Interesting, I did not know that any ever got the originally planned 377 mouse.

SWCDuke

You need to buy a good book, Max.

A Grand Sport was originally released with a production L-84 to Grady Davis in the summer of '63 and was classified C-modified by SCCA. Despite being a production architecture car with a production engine it was reasonably competitive against the big-bore "modifieds" , and Dick Thompson won overall at Watkins Glen in August.

In the fall the GS was returned to the factory and Zora and his elves surrepticiously made numerous modifications to three of the Grand Sports including big fender flares, big wheels and tires, and 377 CID iron block engines with a quartet of 58 mm side draft Webers. Output was rumored to be about 450 HP at 6500, and the engine had a very broad torque curve.

At Nassau in December, the Grand Sports trounced all the Cobras. They did the same hat trick a year later including blowing off Shelby's new 427 Cobra Prototype.

The Grand Sport story continued from there until about 1966, and it is documented in numerous books, so anyone who is really interested in Grand Sport history should look at the Classic Motorbook catalog.

Duke

joe58

Its unfortunate that Chevy didn't build the 100 or so Grand Sports required to race in SCCA and the other racing organizations. The GM executives cracked down on Chevy's racing involvement in 1963 killing the Grand Sport program, the 427 Mark II Mystery motor, and the fiberglass fastback Nova. They did build over 50 1963 Z-11 427 aluminum front end Impalas to race in NHRA Super Stock and some 427 Mystery Motors showed up in Corvettes and Impalas at Daytona 63 but then the racing programs went underground. It appears Chevy had plans to take on the auto racing world in '63 and win in NHRA, NASCAR, SCCA, LeMans, Daytona, Sebring, etc. The big racing crackdowns were in 1957 and 1963 and some people believe they were due in part to Gov. crackdowns. Senate Subcommittee investigations on Antitrust and Monopoly and a U. S. Supreme Court ruling on a Justice Department case that GM violates the Clayton Antitrust Act. 1955-1957. Then in 1962 The U.S. Department of Justice, Antitrust Division, charges GM and three Chevrolet dealer trade associations in criminal and civil suits for violation of the Sherman Act. The Gov. pressure forced GM to keep a lower profile in racing.
Now the Grand Sports are relegated to looking in the mirror like Jake LaMotta in the boxing movie "Raging Bull'' and saying ``I coulda been a contender''.

396 RAT

Coming out of a turn,
Guldstrand could lift the front wheels in his Grandsport.
He told me in my patio, and I believe it.(427 as I recall)
For the record though, I would take a real Cobra.
289 FIA to be exact.......
Or better yet a GT40.
I am the minority here, Chevy-Ford 50%-50%.
Truth be told, Ford got the jump on Chevy with the little Cobra.
(The 427 Side oiler didnt hurt either)
Then it all just ended. Till the Trans-Am boom.
Boss 302 VS Z28 and the bench racing continues..................
Cant wait till Aug. The Historics this year should be spectacular!
Great debate though. Thanks to the 63 Mystery motor,
I have a 425 396 in my 65. :smash: :smash: :smash:
So all was not lost.
Something else of interest, I have a couple hundred slalom race results from 65-70. BB Vettes had the fastest times in their class.
The next class up came the Cobras. There times were always a bit quicker
and usually the fastest of the day. Some of these guys went on to be big time drivers.

Just yacking......... :lol:

One more cool item worth noting, The same 289 and 427 engines were available in cars off the showroom floor. If that was not enough, Shelby had a 4 stage engine enhancement program. Send 'em the engine and they would
work their magic. How fast do you want to go? My 65 Mustang got the Cobra- kit, (stage 1 if you will, in 65) took a stock 271 hp 289 and bumped it up to 306. Cobra small lettered intake, Holley roadrace Carb,
try- y headers, matching alum valve covers, alum pan, override bars, & limiting cables.
From their you could get cams, valves, heads, pistons, all the way to what the racers were winning with. Anyone remember the Dragon Snake? Those were the days, I missed it, too busy learning to ride a two wheeler.
{Told you I still like old fords} :D
Dont be too hard on me.......... :blueangel:


[Modified by 396 RAT, 9:06 PM 6/30/2002]