checkmate

So my 54 was registered in Michigan from 1961 till current.
The VIN does not match the VIN just inside the drivers door, the vin on the title doesn't even match the sequence for 54's. However the vin tag on the car looks untouched, accurate, in sequence and from internet searches my car doesn't show up anywhere.

I'm told the reason for this vin change was in michigan cars 1955 and older that had engine swaps needed the serial # from the engine to be listed as the VIN of the car on the title.

Virginia DMV has called MI DMV and confirmed this, however they are being less than helpful to me in getting the correct vin on the title. They what me to register this as a reconstructed car/salvage.

Any advice? Anyone had to deal with this? What was the resolution?

Thanks,

Frankie the Fink

Wow - that's a sticky one. I dealt with the DMV up there in VA for many decades and a few years as a used car dealer and they can be real "bureaucrats" and pretty inflexible.

I'm actually surprised they went the extra mile and called the MI DMV.

It was years ago but every time I had to fight some titling/registration issue that was out of the norm with those folks I wound up driving to Richmond (the DMV used to be on Broad St - don't know if it still is) and dealing with it in person with upper management there. Sometimes I got my way; sometimes I didn't.

Once in a great while I got lucky by going straight to a State Trooper I knew and laying out my issue with him and if I could win him over; then the DMV fell right in line with his advice -- that might be worth a shot.

That's the only advice I can provide I'm afraid. Given that the MI DMV established a new VIN (and a precedent) I think your chances of getting that turned around are pretty low, frankly...but good luck.

Roger Walling

Perhaps the MI DMV will re title it with the correct #?

A judge may be able to order this?

AZDoug

IN AZ, I would just make the title disappear, show a bill of sale with the cars actual VIN on it, say the title was MIA, I found the car in a farmers barn,and it has been there for 30 years and get a bonded title, and the bond goes away after i believe, 3 years.

YMMV may vary in VA.

Doug

AZDoug

PS: be prepared for doubts by DMV that the VIN is authentic since it is attached with screws.

Follows is a story about screw attached VIN tags

Doug

A long story about moved/missing VIN tags.

I bought my car in Helena, MT in 1974, it was wrecked in Blackfoot, ID in 1969,and sat in a junkyard in Helena in the intervening years.

During negotiations to buy the car, I noticed the VIN tag was on the door frame, attached with sheet metal screws . I asked the guy who I was buying it from if he thought the car was stolen (I knew the guy, it wasn't like he just rolled into town with 'Vettes for sale cheep). He said he didn't think so, but that steering column had been changed.

No problem, I bought the car, spent 6 months scraping up the money to buy a used engine and transmission for it and got it sort of running. I submitted the old Idaho title to MT DMV, and got registration and plates in 1974. Over the next 5 years, I restored the car to respectable appearance.

Fast forward to CA in 1980. When I went to register it there, I found out they wanted to retrofit it with smog devices, so I said to hell with that and just drove the car on expired MT license plates for 11 years until I found out they had they rescinded the smog retrofit rule.

Knowing that I was now safe from smog devices, I went to the Fullerton, CA DMV to register the car in 1991. Going to a CA DMV office is not for the faint of heart, just getting past the gauntlet of Hari-Krishnas milling outside the doors soliciting donations takes the agility of a quarterback, or the brawn of a fullback, coupled with the diplomacy of George Steinbrenner.

After my turn of 40 minutes of waiting in boredom, I get to the counter, and present my Montana title and registration. She looks at it and asks why the registration has been expired for 11 years. I told her the car was in storage in Montana all that time. OK, no problems there, then says she has to inspect the car, and to bring in around front, which I did.

DMV Lady comes out, looks at the car (At that time is was a 97% Concourse show car, in the modified class, in other words, it was spotless inside and out, with 25 coats of nitrocellulose lacquer candy black cherry paint on the body;( I have literally have had several nubile young gals come up to me and ask if they could lick it. Unfortunately they were referring to the paint. ), she looks at the VIN tag and says "wait right here, don't leave" and runs inside. About 30 seconds later three big guys came running out, one with a wire brush in his hand and says: "You, outta the car, NOW, go stand against the wall".

Not quite knowing what was up, I get out and ask them what was wrong?

Sir, this car is probably stolen, the VIN tag has been removed and replaced, go stand against the wall, NOW (two big burly goons had now positioned themselves on either side of me, I think the Hillside Strangler got more assumption of innocence than I was getting at the time). Me: No, the steering column where the VIN tag usually resides has been replaced, so the tag was moved to the door jamb, the state of Montana didn't have a problem with the tag being moved.

So, one guy goes around the front of the car, fumbling under the grill for the hood latch. After watching him look for a latch in the grill area, and even crawl underneath the front of the car trying to figure out how to open the hood, he finally said to me:

"Open the hood, we will check the engine numbers"

So, I open the hood, and guy with the wire brush is all set to brush off inches of expected crud (you could see the gleam in his eye, and he literally was all ready leaning forward over the fender with wire brush in hand as the hood was being opened, ready to corral a dangerous criminal by proving the engine SN didn't match the body VIN), and after the shock of the rear opening hood wears off, he moves to the side of the car and sees a absolutely spotless Concourse engine, and his mouth drops open and he kind of looks back and forth at true spotlessness, with chrome, new paint, neatly arranged plug wires etc.. I then tell him that the engine number is supposed to be right there on the right front side of the block, but it is only a block code, they didn't serialize engines back then, plus I installed a new factory L79 crate engine back in 1976.

Well, now they then go inside, while demanding I still stay at the wall, all but spread eagle, while they go inside and confer, making comments about secret VIN code locations to them selves.

After about 10 minutes they come out, release me from my virtual prison at the wall, and they then tell me they can't register the car until they verify the ID, and that I need to call the CHP for that.

So, next day call the CHP and set up an appointment to go to their division in Orange, CA that does this stuff, and drive down there, and an officer whose name I can’t recall, so I will call him officer Smith, comes out and tells me to drive the car into a bay in the Chippie compound and then go wait in the front office.

I ask why is that?

Officer Smith replies: There are secret places where there are VIN codes on vehicles that we don't want known by the public.

I say, Oh, yeah, the one on this car is located on top of the frame, directly under the drivers seat. His jaw kind of dropped open. So much for their secret. Anyway, he made me go up front so they could confiscate the car if the numbers didn't match.

About 10 minutes later Officer Smith comes up front and tells me he can't read the number and that I was going to have to cut the floor pan out and bring the car back so they could read it.

I Said I ain't cutting the floor pan out. He says then you can't register it in CA until we verify the number; I say, but I am supposed to register it here, I am a Californian resident now; we went back and forth a few times, finally he says register it again in Montana.. I ask isn't that illegal since I now live in CA, he hems and haws and says yes, but, etc, etc.

I then ask him if I can raise the number to be visible, at my house, can he come out and look at it?

Officer Smith says yes he will come out to verify the serial number and gives me his card.

Driving straight home, I jack the car up get out some soapy water water, a scraper and wire brush and clean the top of the frame beneath the drivers seat. I get out a mirror and flash light out and BINGO, you can see the SN, and it matches the title (I was getting kinda worried about then, I wasn't sure if I was going to have to go on the lamb, sort of a Lost Dutchman existence, traveling from state to state, but never being able to register my car).

I promptly called up Officer Smith in case the serial number wanted to migrate or something in the next few hours and tell him I found it, and he comes out pronto in his black and white CHP Mustang, opens the trunk, pulls out and puts on his coveralls, crawls under there, and looks and says, "I can't see the whole number, but I can see the 9141 of the last digits and that is good enough for me".

So I ask him what now?

Officer Smith says bring the car on back and they will assign a new serial number and place a new CA VIN tag (In a real obnoxious place) on the car.

I ask: can't I use my old SN, and place your CA tag right below the Chev tag on the front of the doorjamb? Officer Smith says no, we have to place it where CA says it should be.


Knowing a California assigned VIN would be the Kiss of Death for the car, relegating it to a collectibility status somewhere between Dune Buggy, and Low Rider, I had to think of something.

OK, I had an idea; I went in and wrote a letter to his supervisor telling the supervisor how Officer Smith went out of his way, coming all the way out to my house to help me solve this insurmountable problem, when nobody else would, and how he was a credit to the CHP, etc, etc. I laid it on pretty thick; and took about 2 whole single spaced type written pages to lay it on thick. This letter was so good, that had I copied it to the appropriate people, Officer Smith would have been sleeping in the Lincoln Bedroom, been Knighted by the Queen, and considered for Beatification by the Pope.

The next week, I go down to the Orange, CA CHP station to get my CA tag VIN Cert applied to the car, and Officer Smith, comes out kind of grinning,( obviously his supervisor had shown him the letter I had written and placed it in his file), and says, here, we got your old serial number put on the CA VIN tag, where did you want it installed? OK, under the old one is fine, would you like to install it? Here is the drill and punch.

I declined to install it myself, let him put the tag on, right under the old one, where I pointed out that was where I wanted it..

Then I had to go back to DMV with the certification of VIN.

Going back the second time to that den on incompetence, sullenness and hostility was enough to make me want to find a bridge to jump off of, that seemed less painful. Surly employees, screaming litters of kids be herded by moms that spoke foreign languages, Hari Krishnas (called ISCON now), begging donations at the door; I felt like I was in the bar from Starwars, and wondered why the place couldn’t instead be full of single 20-something babes, waiting for 40 minutes like I was to get their car registered.

Now my number is called and I finally get to the registration counter and the lady asks how much I paid for the car? I said $500, here is the bill of sale. I produce the bill of sale, dated March 16, 1974, written in crayola on a 3" by 5" scrap of paper ( it was all we could find at the time, what can I say).

She looks at it and says, "this car is worth a lot more than that, how much is it worth? I say: I paid $500 for it, there is the bill of sale.

We went back and forth a while, and then she tells me I have to get it appraised before I can register it. I say: I ain't paying for it to be appraised, if you want it appraised, you can hire an appraiser and have him come to my house and appraise it".

I get a dirty look and she gets a supervisor and they start looking through blue books and valuation guides and then get more and more desperate, and are furiously throwing new and old Kelly Blue Books around trying to find a 1961 Corvette in them that just isn't listed, to prove the car is worth lots more so the grand State of California can extort me for more money (This was before the KBB old car guide) , and finally the supervisor asks me how much the car is worth? I tell him: I paid $500 for it, there is the bill of sale, if it has gone up or down, since then, I have no idea, all I know is I paid $500 for it. (Car was appraised shortly after for $35K).

He shakes his head in disgust and tells the gal to put down $500 as the value.

So, my registration in CA was $18 a year, instead of the $1000 a year they were hoping to get.

All over two sheetmetal screws holding the VIN tag on.

bastards. :-)

Post script: After I registered my Corvette in Arizona after my escape from California and permanent move here , the California DMV sent me a letter, to my Arizona address, demanding I reregister the car in California or they were going to seize the vehicle. My written reply was: “Bite Me”. Haven’t heard a thing from them since.

PS: maybe sometime I will relate the story on how the State of Ca, refunded me the sales tax on a Ferrari I bought....

ricks327

Great post! When and if you sell the car, I hope the new owner isn't from Calif and wants to take it back home.
Rick

93RubyRedCoupe

;( I have literally have had several nubile young gals come up to me and ask if they could lick it. Unfortunately they were referring to the paint. ),
Now that's good humor.....

jim lockwood

Great story, Doug. I've read it previously, but it's still a good read.

Jim

biggd

The RMV in Ma is just as bad as Ca. They want to extort as much money out of you as possible. I bought my 67 coupe project for 20K. I went right down to the RMV with my certified bill of sale but the car had been off the road for over 20 years so it was never title. They told me I had to have a copy of a previous registration. The owner lived in NH so he went to the NH RMV and registered the car and gave me a registration. That was good enough for the Ma RMV. Now when I go back to register and title the car they look up the value and want me to pay sales tax on $52000. I brought pictures with me to show the condition of the car but the women at the counter could care less. Pay this or take your complaint to the Ma Department of Revenue she says.
I put up a stink and say I'm not leaving here until I talk to a supervisor. So she makes me wait, and wait, and wait some more. After about an hour she calls me to the counter and says we will accept your bill of sale. I forgot to mention, between these two visits to the RMV the legislators raised the sales tax from 5% to 6.25%.

jimh_1962

First off topic... Hey Jim, I bought the Reibes calendar just because the January.

A friend of mine who restored my car took another customer's car down to the local CHP office on a flat bed trailer to get the vin verification completed. The trailer had high fenders over the wheels causing the doors not open all of the way. A big CHP officer, Girth, came out and tried to get inside of the car to inspect the vin on this midyear coupe. After several tries, he finally looked at my friend and said "Can you get in there and read me what the VIN says?". My friend, was shocked since he could have told him anything.

It took me two go times to get DMV to sign off on my car. Luckily, I worked with a really nice older woman instead of a young person at the DMV office. She was told over the phone that was going take three weeks for the Sacto office to get back to her with the information she needed. Really, it took more than five months since CA DMV lost the paperwork.

Thank goodness, she kept the original documents in her own filing cabinet plus, I had kept copies of everything. I know the paperwork brought back some good memories for her since the bill of sales went back to 1973. The paperwork was riddled with blue crayons marks and initials. She told me about what she used to do back in the day and most of it was so that their marks could go onto microfiche and carbon copies.

Tampa Jerry

Doug; Love the story. Next time, register the car in Florida. They will wash any title. In fact, I think you could put a VIN on a jackass and and get it registered. Jerry

mark6669

I had a similar problem with a 54 in Florida last year the car was titled to the used 59 engine that was installed some time in its lifetime. I put a correct 54 engine in the car and the title did not match any numbers on the car (discovered when registering for NCRS judging) The owner got Florida DMV to fix the title. It helped that he had owned the car for over 30 years.
Mark

myred63

I bought my car in Chicago. I had the vin correct on all the paper work from dealer.
Because they had just taken the car in on a trade for Nomad they did not have the title.
When the title came it was missing a digit . they just left off second to last number.
The car came from New Hampshire and had been tilted there with wrong number for years.
I had to have actual Vin verified by FHP ( Florida Highway Patrol)
and send that back to Chicago. They had to get correction from New Hampshire,
then get corrected IL title. It took about 4 months ..
Dealer kept sending me a temp tag every month while i sweat this out.
All turned out well, just very slow.
And as far as nubile girls wanting to lick it.
I guess it was almost 2 years ago and I had just bought a new Porsche .
I was about a week old , and I go to the store one afternoon and park in the furthest
loneliest space in parking lot.
I am just putting top up and this woman parks to the right of me.
I start think to myself , that with all the space in this lot she has to pick this one right next to
me. She signals me to roll down my window. She proceeds to ask me if I am married.
I hesitated, not much , but thought this looks like trouble.. I told Her i was married.
She promptly told me how sad, and that how she thought I was hot.
Now, I know I am not hot. I know my car was hot. I felt like asking her , ( seemed late
30's or early 40's) for a quick flash, but I did not. She then proceeded to drive off.

AZDoug

Dude,

you gotta learn to seize the day.

Back in the '80', when i was driving my 308 around (I still have it, but am not 27-30-ish anymore), I had girls follow me home from the grocery store, turn around on the street and follow me, pull (wave) me over, etc. These were nice healthy looking, pretty young CA girls, not reservation hogs.

I knew they were gold diggers, they knew they were gold diggers. You just took them to where you wanted, not anyplace they suggested unless they were neighborhood girls , and not get involved beyond that.

Edit, this was back before cell phones, so you didn't have to worry about her calling four or five guidos and telling them where she was, while she was in your driveway.

Doug

ptjsk

Hey Doug,

What a story! That's crazy!

That was back in '91. I know there's lots of law enforcement officers that are car guys as well, I can only hope things have improved since then.

I know I have dealt with Placerville (CA), DMV (for several items out of the ordinary), and they have been extremely good to deal with.

Obviously, they're constantly under stress just due to the amount of people sitting and waiting. Fortunately they now have the appointment system that you can log onto to make an appointment. I'll never understand why people continue to show up absent an appointment, unless that is it's due to unforeseen circumstances.

GCD1962

Register in another state. Get numbers straightened out, then register in VA

Frankie the Fink

I think the point of the long post above is that sucking up to the law enforcement side of the DMV process greases the skids immeasurably -- hence my advice to take a run by the VA State Trooper post near your house and see if you can find somebody sympathetic to your plight.

As to some of the other stories; no car ever got me "lucky" with a woman....it usually took lots of alcohol and a tranquilizer dart into the rump of their seeing-eye dog.

AZDoug

It was my devilishly handsome good looks and youthful demeanor that got me lucky, the car just drew attention to me of the females in other cars around me.

Doug

jim lockwood

Well, thanks! It's going to be January here for a lonnnnnnng time!



Jim

tach drive 61

This year concluded the thread of uncle's lost 53 ,took a few years and we found car.restored in Arizona.the surprise was it was a 54'now in 1959 he registerd the car as 53 Chevrolet next owner did same in Michigan.all the while the car carried it's original tag and motor.after its full restoration Arizona and its current owners registered it as 54'guess old dmvs just never really looked.