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Old 04-26-2014, 10:05 AM   #1
Mike Terry
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Default Here is a kick in the pants

How many of you who want your C1 or C2 Corvette want your car to be as close as it can be to the day it was born? In other wards NCRS Top Flight and or Bloomington Gold quality? Well that may not happen. How many of you know that now that the new edition of the NCRS Judging Manual is out and has changes in it that may or may not be true about your car and the reason that it may not get top flight award is because some NCRS Judge makes a part that will fir on your car and that Judge also Judges that year of car that he makes a part or parts for. Do you see where this is going?? Let me make it ease if you do or did not buy a part for your car or have on your car the part that has been changed in the new NCRS Judging built by a NCRS Judge who Judges that year of car you will have points deducted and you may not get Top Flight. Who is to really say (unless you have that year of car that has NEVER had anything done to it or has been put away and never touch what is truly correct or not?? Also so now that they have judged X amount of cars in the past that has not had that part on it (only because some NCRS Judge didn't make that part until now) will those cars now loose there Top Flight status? Should they loose there Top Flight status because they do not have on that part and you have to have it? Sounds to me like the NCRS Judging manuals may not be 100 percent correct because the NCRS Judges want to make money off the parts they sell for cars they judge . If you do not think what I have just told you is true look at your old NCRS Judging Manual and compare it to the New NCRS Judging Manual and look at what all is different and then look and see if the changed part in the New NCRS Manual is being reproduced by a NCRS Judge who just may be judging that year of car? This in not true in every case or change but it is true in several changes. So all of you who have had you cars judged in the past as NCRS Top Flight Cars should turn in your Top Flight and have your judged again. Or how about the guy who has his car judged at one NCRS Event and may get a 96.5 and make all the changes to his car that they took points off for and then take his car back to be judged again and only get a 94.0 and he corrected all the items on his car that he had lost points for and he now gets a lower score and a second NCRS Judging meet . Sounds like a big $$$$ making game to me for some people . I am sure that I will be slammed for this post by NCRS people who think that having an NCRS Top Flight car is the only way to go, but do they drive them or are they putting all this money into a car that is almost never started or driven more then around the block and maybe up onto a trailer. That is FUN
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Old 04-26-2014, 10:18 AM   #2
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I think that accusations that can neither be substantiated nor denied because they are nebulous do neither the hobby nor the accuser any good.
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Old 04-26-2014, 10:26 AM   #3
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I guess I went down the right road in '75 or '76 and stopped showing my '67 when the class winner (NON NCRS show) rolled his car out of a trailer (each to their own). Of course, at that time I could not have imagined the detailed development of NCRS and NCCC (I know they are different) judging standards, but I could see a small indicator of the limitations too come if you wanted to drive your Vette as intended. I drive the miles and get the smiles! Dennis
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Old 04-26-2014, 10:31 AM   #4
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Yea, specifics.............................
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Old 04-26-2014, 10:32 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Terry View Post
How many of you who want your C1 or C2 Corvette want your car to be as close as it can be to the day it was born?
I sure as heck don't! 25 years ago I made the horrible mistake of selling my 65 convertible, which was a BB conversion for sure (it was made too early in the model year to have been a real 396 car), with correct BB radiator support, radiator, fan shroud, 66/67 battery tray and a mongrel 427 (a 454 pickup block, small port heads with an L72 cam) that ran like scalded dog. It got smacked in the front end once and had a one-piece Eclker's hand-laid front clip. Not worth much more than a rough driver these days, but if I still had it today, there would be a Merlin 509 under the hood and a Tremec 5 speed behind it for sure. Sure everything was "wrong" on that car, but EVERYTHING worked properly, even the vent window cranks (I bought new regulators for it from GM for only $25 each back in the 80s) and the trip odometer reset. I upgraded the suspension; it drove almost like a modern car even with 205/75/15 radials.

Now I have a damned museum piece because I got led around by the hand by a really good restorer when I brought the car in to have the major body flaws fixed and the interior freshened. I hate it. It's slow, and God forbid dirt might get on the frame if I drive it in a dusty road, let alone a chip in the paint.

If you're out there, current owner of my once favorite car, I want it back! 194675S107712.

Anyway, if I really wanted my car to be correct, I'd just pay John Z and Mike M for their time to tell me what was REALLY most likely to be on the car when it was new. Those two combined are better than ANY NCRS judging manual and it's not worth having Top Flight or Bloomington Gold to contradict what those guys know from personal experience if originality and correctness are your goals.
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Old 04-26-2014, 10:51 AM   #6
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If you have a 'Top Flight' you can keep it...NCRS"ocare"
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Old 04-26-2014, 11:07 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Terry View Post
How many of you who want your C1 or C2 Corvette want your car to be as close as it can be to the day it was born? In other wards NCRS Top Flight and or Bloomington Gold quality? Well that may not happen. How many of you know that now that the new edition of the NCRS Judging Manual is out and has changes in it that may or may not be true about your car and the reason that it may not get top flight award is because some NCRS Judge makes a part that will fir on your car and that Judge also Judges that year of car that he makes a part or parts for. Do you see where this is going?? Let me make it ease if you do or did not buy a part for your car or have on your car the part that has been changed in the new NCRS Judging built by a NCRS Judge who Judges that year of car you will have points deducted and you may not get Top Flight. Who is to really say (unless you have that year of car that has NEVER had anything done to it or has been put away and never touch what is truly correct or not?? Also so now that they have judged X amount of cars in the past that has not had that part on it (only because some NCRS Judge didn't make that part until now) will those cars now loose there Top Flight status? Should they loose there Top Flight status because they do not have on that part and you have to have it? Sounds to me like the NCRS Judging manuals may not be 100 percent correct because the NCRS Judges want to make money off the parts they sell for cars they judge . If you do not think what I have just told you is true look at your old NCRS Judging Manual and compare it to the New NCRS Judging Manual and look at what all is different and then look and see if the changed part in the New NCRS Manual is being reproduced by a NCRS Judge who just may be judging that year of car? This in not true in every case or change but it is true in several changes. So all of you who have had you cars judged in the past as NCRS Top Flight Cars should turn in your Top Flight and have your judged again. Or how about the guy who has his car judged at one NCRS Event and may get a 96.5 and make all the changes to his car that they took points off for and then take his car back to be judged again and only get a 94.0 and he corrected all the items on his car that he had lost points for and he now gets a lower score and a second NCRS Judging meet . Sounds like a big $$$$ making game to me for some people . I am sure that I will be slammed for this post by NCRS people who think that having an NCRS Top Flight car is the only way to go, but do they drive them or are they putting all this money into a car that is almost never started or driven more then around the block and maybe up onto a trailer. That is FUN
This is passive aggressive BS. If you have facts, post them.

Regarding ncrs, I haven't liked the group for years and your story is at minimum plausible. They think they know it all and have 'concrete facts' but they are all inferred. Judging is at least part political ( as it is at most car shows with judging).
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Old 04-26-2014, 11:48 AM   #8
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Everyone has their own thoughts, concerns, and direction they would like to take with their cars. I have a 65 that is being restored to top flight and a 63 intended to restomod. The restomod will be driven the 65 may not be.

I think everyone reading this thread would appreciate specifics rather than a general rambling expressing discontent.
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Old 04-26-2014, 11:58 AM   #9
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If you have a 'Top Flight' you can keep it...NCRS"ocare"
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Old 04-26-2014, 12:29 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Avispa View Post
I sure as heck don't! 25 years ago I made the horrible mistake of selling my 65 convertible, which was a BB conversion for sure...Now I have a damned museum piece because I got led around by the hand by a really good restorer when I brought the car in to have the major body flaws fixed
I bought my real 65 396 car fully restored with almost no miles, as new condition. Paid a sinful amount for it too. I'm 53. My dad died at 65. I figure if I live any longer than he did, it's a bonus. So I drive the sh%4t out of it. I have the cracks around the hood bulge to prove it.

I'm not saving it so the next guy gets a great deal. I'm using it. Save your health, not your car. use it. Every day. And screw the self proclaimed experts.

Dan
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Old 04-26-2014, 02:35 PM   #11
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Having owned my 67 Coupe since 1972 I can add. I enjoyed the car so much more when the dollar value was not an issue. As for the Judging issues, I've seen more than one owner approach Judging as a Challenge to be concurred. Afterward the car is driven often for the shear Joy of it. Nothing wrong with this in my mind. Al W.
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Old 04-26-2014, 02:46 PM   #12
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I love driving my car and going to cruise in's. A lot of things on my car aren't original and I could care less and the general public doesn't know the difference anyway. I do try to stay original to a point, but if I used a Phillips head screw instead of a slot, I mean, come on...
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Old 04-26-2014, 03:54 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Terry View Post
How many of you know that now that the new edition of the NCRS Judging Manual is out and has changes in it that may or may not be true about your car and the reason that it may not get top flight award is because some NCRS Judge makes a part that will fir on your car and that Judge also Judges that year of car that he makes a part or parts for. Do you see where this is going?? Let me make it ease if you do or did not buy a part for your car or have on your car the part that has been changed in the new NCRS Judging built by a NCRS Judge who Judges that year of car you will have points deducted and you may not get Top Flight.
Unsubstantiated and absurd claims don't carry any credibility.
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Old 04-26-2014, 04:39 PM   #14
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Paragraphs sure would make that more readable. I gave up after the first few sentences.
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Old 04-26-2014, 04:51 PM   #15
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Unsubstantiated and absurd claims don't carry any credibility.
just one example. Look at the 1953 Corvette judging manual at the gas filters in the past years manuals. Now look at the NEW Manual that is out at the same thing. The difference is 2 little prong like wires or what ever they are on the gas filter that is in side the glass filter bowl. From the time NCRS started the gas filter without the 2 prongs on the bottom side were correct and passed NCRS inspection. Now they show if your filter does not have these prongs that are on the NEW JUDGING MANUAL that you will have points deducted. So does that mean that all 53 Corvettes that were judged before the new book came out should loose more points. I am not sure but I was told that a NCRS Judge is making the so called correct filter. If it is correct now why have they passed all the 53 Corvettes in the past without the filter with the prongs on it?? I am sure there are a bunch more items or why else would they be making and changing the judging manuals?? So if they have changed say 5 things per model year, does that means all the cars judged in the past are not Top Flight Cars?? Maybe they should all come back in to be re-judged each time they put out a new manual or do they just put out new manuals to get more money for the new book and there is nothing changed in them and if that is the case they should tell the people before they buy a new book that the old books are just the same as the new books and nothing has changed?? Just check the old manuals to the new ones and see if there are any changes and who said the new change is correct? If the new change is correct then all the cars judged under the old manuals were judged wrong and may not be Top Flight Cars? I have seen several Pennant Blue 1954 Corvettes with Top Flights and I do not remember any of them being the same color Blue as any of the other cars. They are almost all different colors blue and the same for the Polo White cars, I have seen several Top Flight Polo White cars and a lot of them are different shades of white, how can that be??

Last edited by Mike Terry; 04-26-2014 at 05:06 PM.
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Old 04-26-2014, 04:57 PM   #16
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Thank God I have a 64 and just have fun .
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Old 04-26-2014, 04:59 PM   #17
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My comments are just that; comments. I have a friend who had a 65 396 convertible car. The car was nice when he purchased it but he went through the process to make it "correct" for NCRS judging and achieved two, count them two, top flight awards within three years. Then he tried for the Duntov award and was disappointed twice; with each disappointment being different. One time he was told the vent windows were not tight enough, being that at half open they had too much play when manually moved. He changed regulators and on a second attempt for Duntov award he was told that the Milano Maroon color, which had top flighted twice, was not correct.

He conceded that the process was flawed in that there was no standard but simply a personal interpretation as to what constitutes "correct".

Now to the important part. It doesn't matter what year Corvette you have. Build it the way you want and enjoy it as often as you can. Life is short. Make the most of it. You will never please or satisfy everyone. As a Corvette owner make sure YOU are happy with your Covette and enjoy your Corvette experience.
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Old 04-26-2014, 06:35 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by BADBIRDCAGE View Post
My comments are just that; comments. I have a friend who had a 65 396 convertible car. The car was nice when he purchased it but he went through the process to make it "correct" for NCRS judging and achieved two, count them two, top flight awards within three years. Then he tried for the Duntov award and was disappointed twice; with each disappointment being different. One time he was told the vent windows were not tight enough, being that at half open they had too much play when manually moved. He changed regulators and on a second attempt for Duntov award he was told that the Milano Maroon color, which had top flighted twice, was not correct.

He conceded that the process was flawed in that there was no standard but simply a personal interpretation as to what constitutes "correct".

Now to the important part. It doesn't matter what year Corvette you have. Build it the way you want and enjoy it as often as you can. Life is short. Make the most of it. You will never please or satisfy everyone. As a Corvette owner make sure YOU are happy with your Covette and enjoy your Corvette experience.
The above post is what I guess I am trying to say. I don't think any Judges knows for sure what is 100 per cent correct and what is not. You can read from the post above about different judges not agreeing on color. If they can bot agree on color how can they know or all agree on something a lot smaller like a gas filter or a wiper blade or even the stamping of a letter or number on a bolt head. It is a Corvette, weather it is all original or just a driver or a resto-mod. It is all in what you are happy with and should not push your ideas of what is or in not correct on a car when Judges can not even agree. Thank you bad birdcage for posting what you did.
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Old 04-26-2014, 06:58 PM   #19
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Lesson learned, enough money can corrupt anyone!
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Old 04-26-2014, 08:35 PM   #20
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Mike, if I were you, I wouldn't join the NCRS. lol
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