Ok lets get controversial!
06-19-2014, 01:36 PM
#41
Race Director
Member Since: Jun 2006
Location: Inverness FL
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St. Jude Donor '07
Who here C1/C2 crowd could place a higher value (sentimental or monetarily) on a well built and engineered car, than for a NCRS Top Flight car in consideration of the nice Resto-Mods, the Custom Show Cars, some of the very clean Drag or Road Racing cars that make the rounds with many of our fellow forum members.
Bill
i'd change the tailpipes...
06-19-2014, 02:02 PM
#43
Le Mans Master
I'm on the fence about it. I shake my head at the **** retentive factory overspray and correct tags crowd, but I would hate to see a nice original car get ripped apart for big gaudy chrome wheels and flares.
My preference is to keep it looking period correct with some modern safety, reliability and performance modifications under the skin.
My preference is to keep it looking period correct with some modern safety, reliability and performance modifications under the skin.
06-19-2014, 02:20 PM
#44
Burning Brakes
We agree. I was at Quail last year with my car and loved it and then drove it to the race, fun.
Re Indy, I'm afraid your car was one of the few examples of how vintage Corvette racing at Indy should have been.
I guess you'd call a Corvette that has a Donavan 540 cubic inch aluminum block and aluminum heads made in Texas that had ports so big you could reach into them with your hand and a 5 speed dog transmission a "resto Mod" You certainly couldn't call it a vintage race car.
Re Indy, I'm afraid your car was one of the few examples of how vintage Corvette racing at Indy should have been.
I guess you'd call a Corvette that has a Donavan 540 cubic inch aluminum block and aluminum heads made in Texas that had ports so big you could reach into them with your hand and a 5 speed dog transmission a "resto Mod" You certainly couldn't call it a vintage race car.
I believe "Corvettes are for driving." So for me, my answer obvious. No restomod will ever be invited to Monterey (or Indy), but my car also gets invited to The Quail, Amelia Island and other high end auto shows, so I have the best of both worlds
Jerry, sorry I missed you at Indy.
Jerry, sorry I missed you at Indy.
06-19-2014, 07:21 PM
#45
Drifting
An earlier poster makes a good point about what todays restomod will be worth in 20 or forty years. Until those cars have been around that long a fair comparison can't be made when trying to establish whether an original or a resto is worth more or which one will hold it's value better. I suspect the original cars will out perform restomods in the long run unless the Model T syndrome afflicts vintage Corvettes..which I think is a real possibility.
That said, I do like restomods and think they are pretty cool, but I feel they are way to costly.
My preference is for original cars or restored cars, but even those are now starting to become the toys of only the wealthy, unfortunately the Corvette hobby has left us common folk behind. ymmv
That said, I do like restomods and think they are pretty cool, but I feel they are way to costly.
My preference is for original cars or restored cars, but even those are now starting to become the toys of only the wealthy, unfortunately the Corvette hobby has left us common folk behind. ymmv
rustylugnuts
06-19-2014, 10:12 PM
#46
I hate the resto mods, what fun is an old car if it's not an old car. I like period correct cars, which isn't the same as ncrs. Look at the street rod scene, the traditional cars have made a come back with the younger generation.
06-19-2014, 10:16 PM
#47
Tech Contributor
I suspect it's when the generation of enthusiasts who care about a particular car or range of cars, dies off without a follow up generation to still have an interest in purchasing and owning that car range. Most of the car shows I've attended in recent years, but for Cars and Coffee, feels like a gathering of my parent's friends (and their parents).
06-19-2014, 10:51 PM
#49
06-19-2014, 10:54 PM
#50
Melting Slicks
I think Harley, Zora, and Bill got it right the first time.
06-19-2014, 11:50 PM
#51
Team Owner
Thread Starter
I guess as the OP, I shouldn't neglect commenting!
Growing up and my earliest memories of Corvettes were the C1/C2 stock original that caused me to fall in love with them, but particularly the C2. Then growing up seeing the psychodelic late 60's, the Muscle car era and the Corvettes had to get tires and the same performance mods as the Muscle cars to stay up with all of the snorkeled hood tunnel rammed cars that at least were appearing in my neighborhood! The norm was to create your own custom, and it got really wild into the 70's and I watched it all happen. Street racing, car shows and seeing a real classic original NOS was a real treat! But kind of became a rarity there, unless you walked in that circle of enthusiasts. I think the NCRS came about because some Corvette Owners felt the history with as they came off the showroom was threatened. Thus I had the highest respect when I saw an original restored car or survivor type, but I liked seeing the unexpected build (custom or race,etc.), and sometimes couldn't wait for a new car that showed up to park, and I would hover to see if the engine was just as radical or interesting when the hood was opened. Basically the mind set of the late 70's into the 80s was that the Lamborghini Countach was the most photographed car in the world, yuck!!!!!! Thus Late 75- thru 80's the cars offered on the showrooms mostly sucked! The Corvette world became fractured and split into two camps and I remember a real dislike at shows or events between the not modified car Owners and the modified car Owners. At a certain point, the prices of membership of buying and Owning a Corvette went on the rise. Because the general cars with the smog laws and the gas prices etc.. caused renewed interest attracting more into the hobby or back to the hobby! As cars were sold, it seemed like for a modified custom to get the same price as a pure pristine NOS original car, it had to be done right with taste and performance, and it is hard to hit on a build that scores high with each and everyones differing tastes. So a good clean intact car generally was attractive as a starting point for either a restoration project or possibly as a solid starting point for a custom build. Ok this story is getting long winded, so let me get to the point!
I would say around the mid to late 80s, the NOS original cars and with credentials became the target for a build. Thus flares were removed, spoilers were removed, custom paint jobs were removed, and those cars were trading hands at decent dollar amounts. By the early 90's, guys started really looking for the rare (but some guys were already hunting for such prior going back to the mid 70's). All of the magazines of the day advertised features of rare this and rare that, high option cars, unusual but likeable color combinations, Z-06, J-56. Fuelie, Solid Lifter, Tri-Carb, with an occasionally interesting to me Baldwin, or Greenwood article thrown in for the custom or racing crowd, or a show car or something.
Thus I now see a trend where customs and non-stock interesting cars are making a comeback if done right. I feel the restomods and such are commanding decent dollars that sometimes are surpassing the regular good quality Origin cars that were the top of the market. Thus I like both camps. I like walking up to a very original car and looking it over, but it is predictable as to what you will see, but they still are appreciated by me, but kind of boring to look at (OK, ooh numbers matching, oooh original paint/body work, Ok there is that stock air cleaner again, Ok the seat covers were put on proper and look nice, etc. etc. I have seen too many of these pristine original restored cars having been in the hobby since the early 60's! Thus it isn't that I don't like your nice restored to stock and original car, it is for me a matter of me having seen so many such that it has to be something exceptionally interesting for me to drool on it! Thus when I see something custom, I head for those cars, because I don't know what the heck I am going to find and see until I am checking it out. And I get excited by the unpredictable encounter of a truly well built car , but not necessarily so when I see a restored original. If anything the eye tends to scrutinize the original type car for it's hose clamps, and decals while I with the customs and the racers, and restomods trying to figure out the performance (horsepower and handling mods, etc. ).
I think I was going to make about 15 or 30 more points, but I am tired of typing and I forgot what I was going to say next! Thus submit reply!
I would say around the mid to late 80s, the NOS original cars and with credentials became the target for a build. Thus flares were removed, spoilers were removed, custom paint jobs were removed, and those cars were trading hands at decent dollar amounts. By the early 90's, guys started really looking for the rare (but some guys were already hunting for such prior going back to the mid 70's). All of the magazines of the day advertised features of rare this and rare that, high option cars, unusual but likeable color combinations, Z-06, J-56. Fuelie, Solid Lifter, Tri-Carb, with an occasionally interesting to me Baldwin, or Greenwood article thrown in for the custom or racing crowd, or a show car or something.
Thus I now see a trend where customs and non-stock interesting cars are making a comeback if done right. I feel the restomods and such are commanding decent dollars that sometimes are surpassing the regular good quality Origin cars that were the top of the market. Thus I like both camps. I like walking up to a very original car and looking it over, but it is predictable as to what you will see, but they still are appreciated by me, but kind of boring to look at (OK, ooh numbers matching, oooh original paint/body work, Ok there is that stock air cleaner again, Ok the seat covers were put on proper and look nice, etc. etc. I have seen too many of these pristine original restored cars having been in the hobby since the early 60's! Thus it isn't that I don't like your nice restored to stock and original car, it is for me a matter of me having seen so many such that it has to be something exceptionally interesting for me to drool on it! Thus when I see something custom, I head for those cars, because I don't know what the heck I am going to find and see until I am checking it out. And I get excited by the unpredictable encounter of a truly well built car , but not necessarily so when I see a restored original. If anything the eye tends to scrutinize the original type car for it's hose clamps, and decals while I with the customs and the racers, and restomods trying to figure out the performance (horsepower and handling mods, etc. ).
I think I was going to make about 15 or 30 more points, but I am tired of typing and I forgot what I was going to say next! Thus submit reply!
Last edited by TCracingCA; 06-20-2014 at 12:55 AM.
06-20-2014, 12:31 AM
#52
Le Mans Master
A lot in this thread.
Model T Syndrome - I don't think so. For one reason, a stock Model T is a really poor road car today. Sure you can putter the streets around town, but that is about it. A friend is (was?) the president of the St. Louis Model T Club. A few years back for a celebration of Model Ts, they drove a group of them to Indianapolis. They took a couple of trucks with trailers, parts, and so on. They could only drive in the day, as a few didn't have lights that worked, or if they did, they couldn't see more than a few feet in front of them.
So for anyone other than those that grew up with them, they are just a funny old car that if they own it, they probably wouldn't even know how to drive it. (Ever drive one?)
Old Corvette, though, can be driven cross country at highway speeds if you know it is in good shape and want to. A Corvette, even though old, is a modern car, which basically occurred probably in the '50s, as opposed to the truly antiques like the '20s and '30s.
Resto mods vs the '60s and '70s customs - this has been my thought for some time. For the most part, most resto mods are not some artist's outlandish take on how a car should look, but rather simply installing current new technology into the old car. They kind of equate to the semi-customs of all cars of the '60s and '70s, where people put modern or new engines in old cars so they were dependable and more comfortable and retained mostly stock looks. After all, a '63 with mild flares and a '67 hood we know isn't stock, but it looks mostly stock and especially to those who are not on this forum.
You will notice that the hot rods of '20s, '30s, '40s, and '50s cars are still rolling along quite well. Odds are the corvette resto mods will, too.
Original vs resto mod - that is tough. But original cars, with the exception of in the '80s and the early '90s, continue to become fewer and fewer. As they become more rare, they will become more valuable. The only drawback is that the market for them will decrease as the potential buyer will be someone richer rather than every blue collar worker who wanted one like in the '70s. So the value will probably stand or even improve, but the ability to liquidate it in a hurry will be less.
Race cars - Garrett, don't even get me started on "vintage" racing. My first brush with it was the Chicago Historics back in 1980 at Road America. Most were not real race cars but just old cars that had a roll bar and did some brisk laps in between the main Can Am and Trans Am races that weekend. They were strictly out for fun.
Next real contact was in '88. Lots of rules, lots of egos, lots of hassles. I was trying to sort mine and decided to run vintage while I did since it would let me run fast and not worry about pressure from anyone, kind of like cheap practice days. The problem was most club racers had been restored to street, so the vintage "race" cars were street cars made to look like race cars. So theirs were pretty; mine was not.
Somewhere in the mid '90s, I found many vintage events didn't even try to fake history or being real race cars from long ago. They build new vintage race cars, and most had no clue as to what the GCR required back when the car was supposedly raced. Edelbrock and Dart aluminum heads, 383s, 406s, giant big blocks, and so on. Wilwood brakes, 5 and 6 point suspensions, coilovers, etc.
One funny one was at Sebring in '96 when I was running F440. The vintage session had an F5000. I asked about their 302. They responded like I was stupid, they didn't have FORD Mustang engine, they had a Chevy 350 in there. I tried to explain that F5000 meant Formula 5000 cc or 305.1 cid, but they were still deer in the headlights.
They were considering a 383, since they didn't have the power they wanted from the 350.
Too bad, they didn't know what they were missing by not having a 9000 rpm 302 behind them.
Model T Syndrome - I don't think so. For one reason, a stock Model T is a really poor road car today. Sure you can putter the streets around town, but that is about it. A friend is (was?) the president of the St. Louis Model T Club. A few years back for a celebration of Model Ts, they drove a group of them to Indianapolis. They took a couple of trucks with trailers, parts, and so on. They could only drive in the day, as a few didn't have lights that worked, or if they did, they couldn't see more than a few feet in front of them.
So for anyone other than those that grew up with them, they are just a funny old car that if they own it, they probably wouldn't even know how to drive it. (Ever drive one?)
Old Corvette, though, can be driven cross country at highway speeds if you know it is in good shape and want to. A Corvette, even though old, is a modern car, which basically occurred probably in the '50s, as opposed to the truly antiques like the '20s and '30s.
Resto mods vs the '60s and '70s customs - this has been my thought for some time. For the most part, most resto mods are not some artist's outlandish take on how a car should look, but rather simply installing current new technology into the old car. They kind of equate to the semi-customs of all cars of the '60s and '70s, where people put modern or new engines in old cars so they were dependable and more comfortable and retained mostly stock looks. After all, a '63 with mild flares and a '67 hood we know isn't stock, but it looks mostly stock and especially to those who are not on this forum.
You will notice that the hot rods of '20s, '30s, '40s, and '50s cars are still rolling along quite well. Odds are the corvette resto mods will, too.
Original vs resto mod - that is tough. But original cars, with the exception of in the '80s and the early '90s, continue to become fewer and fewer. As they become more rare, they will become more valuable. The only drawback is that the market for them will decrease as the potential buyer will be someone richer rather than every blue collar worker who wanted one like in the '70s. So the value will probably stand or even improve, but the ability to liquidate it in a hurry will be less.
Race cars - Garrett, don't even get me started on "vintage" racing. My first brush with it was the Chicago Historics back in 1980 at Road America. Most were not real race cars but just old cars that had a roll bar and did some brisk laps in between the main Can Am and Trans Am races that weekend. They were strictly out for fun.
Next real contact was in '88. Lots of rules, lots of egos, lots of hassles. I was trying to sort mine and decided to run vintage while I did since it would let me run fast and not worry about pressure from anyone, kind of like cheap practice days. The problem was most club racers had been restored to street, so the vintage "race" cars were street cars made to look like race cars. So theirs were pretty; mine was not.
Somewhere in the mid '90s, I found many vintage events didn't even try to fake history or being real race cars from long ago. They build new vintage race cars, and most had no clue as to what the GCR required back when the car was supposedly raced. Edelbrock and Dart aluminum heads, 383s, 406s, giant big blocks, and so on. Wilwood brakes, 5 and 6 point suspensions, coilovers, etc.
One funny one was at Sebring in '96 when I was running F440. The vintage session had an F5000. I asked about their 302. They responded like I was stupid, they didn't have FORD Mustang engine, they had a Chevy 350 in there. I tried to explain that F5000 meant Formula 5000 cc or 305.1 cid, but they were still deer in the headlights.
They were considering a 383, since they didn't have the power they wanted from the 350.
Too bad, they didn't know what they were missing by not having a 9000 rpm 302 behind them.
06-20-2014, 12:32 AM
#53
Le Mans Master
06-20-2014, 12:36 AM
#54
Live Free or Die
As a former T owner, I would submit that the Model T syndrome will never happen with Corvettes. The Model T outlived its usefulness more than the owners. You can't do anything with a T but put around town without putting yourself and others at risk. Most any Corvette can drive coast to coast or be driven daily today with no problem.
06-20-2014, 11:14 AM
#55
Drifting
06-20-2014, 01:04 PM
#56
As a former T owner, I would submit that the Model T syndrome will never happen with Corvettes. The Model T outlived its usefulness more than the owners. You can't do anything with a T but put around town without putting yourself and others at risk. Most any Corvette can drive coast to coast or be driven daily today with no problem.
I'm not predicting the same will happen with Corvettes but it's very obvious that the Corvette crowd is aging..just take a look at the next show you go to.
06-20-2014, 04:45 PM
#57
Burning Brakes
Resto-mods,....I kinda like the look and ease-of-drive and performance aspects I guess but as far as them being "different"? They are different from stock, but from the ones I've seen they are becoming more cookie-cutter by the build.
Most seem to have late model Corvette suspension and drivetrain, nicer looking interiors, and big rims and some different colors from the old stocker colors, but they are becoming as all-alike as their stocker brethern.
Yes, they will out corner, out brake, out mpg and ride nicer than our old cars, but will this performance ever really be used to it's capabilities??? I doubt it. Heck, I doubt that many of us stocker-boys or mildly modified cars ever use them to their limits either. (Garrett excluded of course
)
Our old cars can safely be driven across the country and give you one-with-the-road feeling that a new car or resto-mod won't. Obviously many people don't like that feel which is just as ok. Maybe it's just what you grow up with that makes the difference.
I hear many fret about having to run their old cars at a high RPM and that sure didn't make any difference to most of the owners back in the day. 4000rpm was the norm for me and late at night I would up it to 4700. Never gave it another thought. I must admit that I've just put 3:36 in my 63 to help tone down the sidepipe noise at 75mph. I also wish for A/C.
A local guy builds some fantastic looking resto-mods, but they aren't much different from each other. The last one he built was a SWC and I think it sold for $279,000 at Mecum. I think it's highly doubtful that this car will appreciate percentage-wise as much compared to a high quality low production (FI, LT-1, big-block mid-year, a racer with real history, or most any straight-axle (yeah I said it, mid-year, not C2 ). So back to the OP original question, I would place a higher value to the cars in the previous sentence, esp my 63.
To be honest, all this is coming from a guy that put 6 tailights in his brand new 63 right after buying it, a 350 LT-1 block when it came available and of course headers and sidepipes, and have never gone back to stock. Sooooo maybe I'm just jealous of the resto-mods.......
NOT REALLY!!!
Most seem to have late model Corvette suspension and drivetrain, nicer looking interiors, and big rims and some different colors from the old stocker colors, but they are becoming as all-alike as their stocker brethern.
Yes, they will out corner, out brake, out mpg and ride nicer than our old cars, but will this performance ever really be used to it's capabilities??? I doubt it. Heck, I doubt that many of us stocker-boys or mildly modified cars ever use them to their limits either. (Garrett excluded of course
) Our old cars can safely be driven across the country and give you one-with-the-road feeling that a new car or resto-mod won't. Obviously many people don't like that feel which is just as ok. Maybe it's just what you grow up with that makes the difference.
I hear many fret about having to run their old cars at a high RPM and that sure didn't make any difference to most of the owners back in the day. 4000rpm was the norm for me and late at night I would up it to 4700. Never gave it another thought. I must admit that I've just put 3:36 in my 63 to help tone down the sidepipe noise at 75mph. I also wish for A/C.
A local guy builds some fantastic looking resto-mods, but they aren't much different from each other. The last one he built was a SWC and I think it sold for $279,000 at Mecum. I think it's highly doubtful that this car will appreciate percentage-wise as much compared to a high quality low production (FI, LT-1, big-block mid-year, a racer with real history, or most any straight-axle (yeah I said it, mid-year, not C2
). So back to the OP original question, I would place a higher value to the cars in the previous sentence, esp my 63.To be honest, all this is coming from a guy that put 6 tailights in his brand new 63 right after buying it, a 350 LT-1 block when it came available and of course headers and sidepipes, and have never gone back to stock. Sooooo maybe I'm just jealous of the resto-mods.......
NOT REALLY!!!
06-20-2014, 06:28 PM
#58
Le Mans Master
please make more resto-mods out of old vettes. Fewer original cars will make mine more valuable.
add:
chocolate ice cream beats vanilla all day long.
add:
chocolate ice cream beats vanilla all day long.
Last edited by 65hihp; 06-20-2014 at 08:44 PM.
06-20-2014, 07:50 PM
#59
Melting Slicks
If you have a 18th century high boy chest of drawers and install a new set of drawer pulls on it, you devalue it. Refinish it, and you destroyed it.
Why is it OK to completely restore a Corvette and sign it with the original factory markings?
I guess that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla ice cream.
Enjoy your choice of ice cream and/or Corvette.
Why is it OK to completely restore a Corvette and sign it with the original factory markings?
I guess that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla ice cream.
Enjoy your choice of ice cream and/or Corvette.
06-20-2014, 07:55 PM
#60
Tech Contributor
Unfortunately there are also plenty of people who get aggressively angry if you like different ice cream than they do, and hypocritically call you out as being a member if a negative or angry group.
