66 427 block stamping anomaly
10-18-2014, 05:32 PM
#1
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66 427 block stamping anomaly
I have a 66 427 l72 coupe that I'm working on bringing to judging level (hopefully). Car is currently a fairly original driver. The car is absolutely a original 425 car, but the block was factory stamped with the last two vin digits flip flopped of the car vin ( ex. 104721 car vin, 104712 block vin.) Without a doubt factory pad. All dates make sense. I have several other cars and have been a collector for some time so I know things happened on the line, but I didn't buy the car new. However I do know the last 40 years of its history. My questions are 1) can I be fairly certain this is its born with block? 2) I see nothing in the ncrs manual covering this, would it pass without deduction? Thanks in advance for any insight.
10-18-2014, 05:57 PM
#2
Drifting
IMHO, no. You can't prove you have an anomaly, all you can say is you have a correct cast number and date IP block in the car with a different (wrong) VIN number. Anomalies have been described, but what you indicate is a perfectly 100% correct original engine pad, hence, not correct for your car - wrong VIN. Others will have opinions on this, I'm sure, this is just my opinion. NCRS would deduct 25 points for the wrong VIN derivative 
10-18-2014, 06:24 PM
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What other docs do you have to support your claims of being a real L72? I have read of the last number not being correct But not the last two being swaped. Not saying it couldn't have happend. It was done all by hand But I wouldn't sweat it.
10-18-2014, 06:40 PM
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This is a shot in the dark, but in absence of supporting docs to back up your claim, have you considered trying to locate the owner of the car with the VIN that's on your block? If there was another car with a seemingly correct same VIN, it could support your position. Just a thought.
10-18-2014, 06:48 PM
#5
Drifting
First off, stop using ridiculous terms like born with....just use original engine, so there is no confusion. Second, there are 2 possibilities, assuming its an original stamp pad. You either have your original engine with numbers flipped, or you have someone else's engine.
Per NCRS, like was stated above, 25 pt deduct for wrong VIN. Not a big deal. If you have some way of proving its an original engine with jumbled VIN, then you can get the points. I would rather have an engine with original pad than a restamped one.
Boyan
Per NCRS, like was stated above, 25 pt deduct for wrong VIN. Not a big deal. If you have some way of proving its an original engine with jumbled VIN, then you can get the points. I would rather have an engine with original pad than a restamped one.
Boyan
10-18-2014, 06:51 PM
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No docs unfortunately. A p-o-p would definitely make the picture more clear. I know that some, if not most, restamp or restoration stamp or however people want to word it, there blocks if not original (or not accurately stamped in my case) not to get the deduction, but I refuse to do that to an absolutely original stamp IP block that has the last two digits mistamped. I guess my thinking has been that placing that block with the car would have been a serious "needle in the haystack" and 40 years ago we weren't even thinking of numbers matching.
10-18-2014, 06:54 PM
#7
Race Director
We know that mistakes were made at factories but what needs to be answered is what type of inspection was done after the stamping? I have a typo trim tag where it was stamped incorrectly for color. Was there anyone to check for the accuracy of trim tags and in your case for the engine stamp pad?
Obviously it wouldn't seem that the accuracy of a trim tag would be as important as it would be for the stamp pad but was there any inspection at some point before it left the plant?
Hopefully John will see this thread and give some insight as to what inspections were done on accuracy of these stampings.
Rick
Obviously it wouldn't seem that the accuracy of a trim tag would be as important as it would be for the stamp pad but was there any inspection at some point before it left the plant?
Hopefully John will see this thread and give some insight as to what inspections were done on accuracy of these stampings.
Rick
10-18-2014, 06:58 PM
#8
Unfortunately adding the seemingly superfluous 'born with' has almost become necessary in an effort to stay one step ahead of those that twist the meaning of 'numbers matching' or 'all original' etc. away from their original intent.
The NCRS judging standard is 'typical factory production'. Since genuine factory errors in engine stamps, trim tags, VIN tags of numbers being flip flopped have been seen not that infrequently, I'd be reluctant to take a deduct for that reason alone.
The NCRS judging standard is 'typical factory production'. Since genuine factory errors in engine stamps, trim tags, VIN tags of numbers being flip flopped have been seen not that infrequently, I'd be reluctant to take a deduct for that reason alone.
Last edited by Mike Ward; 10-18-2014 at 07:25 PM.
10-18-2014, 07:03 PM
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That was my exact reasoning for using the words "born with". It does seem that the term "numbers matching" now has two different meanings. Numbers stamped matching when at plant and numbers stamped matching 20,30,40 or 50 years later.
10-18-2014, 07:08 PM
#10
Race Director
I'm not going to say that it's impossible, but I think the chances of having two digits wrong, is highly unlikely.
The VIN derivative was stamped using a holder. It was explained to me, as each block was stamped, not all of the digits in the holder were changed. Only the digit(s) that were different from the previous car's VIN, would be replaced in the holder. Only at the end of the shift, would all of the digits be pulled from the holder.
In your example, after VIN 104720 was stamped, to create VIN 104721 only the "0" would be pulled from the holder, to be replaced by the "1". There would be no reason to pull the "2", so it would be hard to reverse the "1" and the "2". I guess it's possible that the stamps fell out of the holder, or the "1" was put in the wrong position, but this would be hard to prove.
You might want to reach out to Al Grenning. He has photos of thousands of stamp pads, and can compare your pad, to know originals in his library. By comparing your stamp, to ones stamped before and after your car, he can identify anomalies such as worn, tilted, high or low digits in all of the stamps, to determine if your block has a factory miss-stamp.
Here is Al's website. http://ccas4vettes.com/
The VIN derivative was stamped using a holder. It was explained to me, as each block was stamped, not all of the digits in the holder were changed. Only the digit(s) that were different from the previous car's VIN, would be replaced in the holder. Only at the end of the shift, would all of the digits be pulled from the holder.
In your example, after VIN 104720 was stamped, to create VIN 104721 only the "0" would be pulled from the holder, to be replaced by the "1". There would be no reason to pull the "2", so it would be hard to reverse the "1" and the "2". I guess it's possible that the stamps fell out of the holder, or the "1" was put in the wrong position, but this would be hard to prove.
You might want to reach out to Al Grenning. He has photos of thousands of stamp pads, and can compare your pad, to know originals in his library. By comparing your stamp, to ones stamped before and after your car, he can identify anomalies such as worn, tilted, high or low digits in all of the stamps, to determine if your block has a factory miss-stamp.
Here is Al's website. http://ccas4vettes.com/
10-18-2014, 07:30 PM
#11
Drifting
Numbers matching is equally ridiculous....why is it so hard to say "original"....and how can that be confusing?
10-18-2014, 07:33 PM
#12
In your example, after VIN 104720 was stamped, to create VIN 104721 only the "0" would be pulled from the holder, to be replaced by the "1". There would be no reason to pull the "2", so it would be hard to reverse the "1" and the "2". I guess it's possible that the stamps fell out of the holder, or the "1" was put in the wrong position, but this would be hard to prove.
If it's a restamp, that's pretty dumb of the stamper and there should be other clues that give it away. OP is convinced that it's without a doubt real-deal (sorry Boyan
)If it's a factory stamp, what's the chances that it was swapped from the car with the other VIN?
Maybe posting a pic of the pad would reveal more clues. Did they stamp the VIN on the transmission in '66?
10-18-2014, 07:34 PM
#13
10-18-2014, 08:22 PM
#14
Drifting
Would like to see a photo of OP's engine pad, and to know if the car with that VIN can be found, is in the C2 registry, etc. YES the 66 trans was VIN stamped, and it indeed would be very interesting to see a photo of that as well (if the OP's car has the original trans still in it).
10-19-2014, 11:26 AM
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Wasn't the vin stamp on the engine pad and Trans case done at the same time at St. Louis?
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bluovl (04-21-2017)
10-19-2014, 12:00 PM
#16
Drifting
10-19-2014, 02:11 PM
#17
Drifting
IMHO, no. You can't prove you have an anomaly, all you can say is you have a correct cast number and date IP block in the car with a different (wrong) VIN number. Anomalies have been described, but what you indicate is a perfectly 100% correct original engine pad, hence, not correct for your car - wrong VIN. Others will have opinions on this, I'm sure, this is just my opinion. NCRS would deduct 25 points for the wrong VIN derivative
Why should an owner have to replace a part that all logic indicates was original to a car just to conform to an arbitrary standard set by an enthusiasts' group. Instead of forcing adherence to its standards, NCRS should celebrate those production line "errors" that make a car's history so interesting by establishing a system whereby anomalies are accepted upon a reasonable showing of fact concerning the part or number in question.
In the case under discussion, the transposition of the last two digits is a most understandable error, particularly if the owner can demonstrate a clear history for the last 40 or so years showing that any restamping would have had to have been done before then, i.e., at a time when numbers were not considered important and there would not have been any motive to lie.
10-19-2014, 02:23 PM
#18
Drifting
This quote, which is correct in its import, points up the stupidity of the NCRS judging system. Everyone knows that mistakes were made in the factory, that parts were substituted to keep the line running, etc.
Why should an owner have to replace a part that all logic indicates was original to a car just to conform to an arbitrary standard set by an enthusiasts' group. Instead of forcing adherence to its standards, NCRS should celebrate those production line "errors" that make a car's history so interesting by establishing a system whereby anomalies are accepted upon a reasonable showing of fact concerning the part or number in question.
In the case under discussion, the transposition of the last two digits is a most understandable error, particularly if the owner can demonstrate a clear history for the last 40 or so years showing that any restamping would have had to have been done before then, i.e., at a time when numbers were not considered important and there would not have been any motive to lie.
Why should an owner have to replace a part that all logic indicates was original to a car just to conform to an arbitrary standard set by an enthusiasts' group. Instead of forcing adherence to its standards, NCRS should celebrate those production line "errors" that make a car's history so interesting by establishing a system whereby anomalies are accepted upon a reasonable showing of fact concerning the part or number in question.
In the case under discussion, the transposition of the last two digits is a most understandable error, particularly if the owner can demonstrate a clear history for the last 40 or so years showing that any restamping would have had to have been done before then, i.e., at a time when numbers were not considered important and there would not have been any motive to lie.
Boyan
10-19-2014, 02:44 PM
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NMVTIS does not show a registration for...
194376S104721
or
194376S104712
or
194676S104712
or
194676S104721
I assume you supplied the correct VIN in your original post.
194376S104721
or
194376S104712
or
194676S104712
or
194676S104721
I assume you supplied the correct VIN in your original post.
