emccomas

So, here is a question for ya'll.

Is there anything on a 1966 Corvette body or chassis, other than the engine and transmission, that would indicate that the car originally came equipped with an M22 transmission.

One idea that was floated was that 1966 M22 cars had the shifter bolted directly to the transmission (like the 65 and earlier cars), as opposed to using the shifter mounting bracket that most 66-67 cars used.

Thoughts?

Ed

Nowhere Man

Nope and nope. I thought the shiftet bring bolted to the frame was a mid change in 66 And every thing I read says NO M22s where used in production for 66

emccomas

I hear you, and then I see that 15 M22s were list as delivered with 1966 Corvettes. A number of them are well documented, like the Gordon Wilson Chevrolet race car.

I honestly don't know the story on this; that is why I am asking.

TCracingCA

Is that some of this stuff is in the production paperwork, while stuff was going out the back door to the racers. Can you officially call a 1966 M22 equipped car, a production car-- probably not and therefore guys will hold the line and say- none were produced, but then we find hints in the paperwork or thru the stories, or parts finds, or find cars etc.. The M22 existed since around 1965, so why would people think that none, were ever installed in Corvettes! Then you mine-as-well say, that the 1966 Penske and Yenko cars with VIN numbers even are just a figment of our imaginations! That FIA paperwork was submitted on ghost cars! FIA has to check something! Yes their enforcement and tech changed according to who was in favor and who wasn't. Sometimes they were strict with a particular brand of car and then lacked with a Competitor Marque. I feel 100% confident that 1966 special models existed and with M22s. Can we call them production, I am leaning toward "NO"! Did they travel up the production line, most definitely, but with special focus and then someone was there waiting for them. Funny how many got picked up at the factory! We can count those on two hands.

In summary I feel that there were (just taking M22 only, even though there could have been some HD engines with M21):

1- 1966 IP stamped cars that got M22's, that were actually HD special engine cars that differed from the STD. IP build (my count is 15 total).
2- 1966 IP stamped cars that got M22's and even Aluminum Heads on HD engines (my count is 4 total, but maybe these 4 are part of the 15).
3- 1966 IK stamped cars that did not have Aluminum Heads, but M22's. (Unknown, maybe none)
4- 1966 IK stamped cars that had the M22 and the Aluminum Heads (my count is 2 total- Penske's Daytona/Sebring car and Yenko's Sebring car).
5- 1966 IT stamped car that had aluminum heads, M22 (My count 1 only- Summers car to Yenko)

From things I am seeing on this topic (maybe as many as 22 total and between at least 18-22 cars is what some have believed) with M22's.

I can tell that my commentary in the L-88 related thread has caused to offshoot threads (this one and the L89 one!). Sorry everyone! I do tend to stir it up!

And still freshly looking into it!

JohnZ

There's nothing unique about the M22 installation vs. M20 or M21; all had the shifter mounted on a bracket bolted to the trans crossmember starting on March 21, 1966.

emccomas

Gracias.

I like "stirred up". Interesting things come out of the mix when you stir things up.

emccomas

Thanks John.

TCracingCA

should have typed IP, IK, IT stamped HD engines mated to M22's with or without aluminum heads placed in 1966 cars would be the more appropriate way to put it. Because of racing under FIA rules at Sebring, Watkins Glen, I think Daytona that year was FIA sanctioned the submission paperwork for that was IP code, so they had to stamp a number of those HD engines with IP. I would strongly say that the engine that was put in that Penske car when it rolled out for delivery, was most definitely an IP stamped HD based engine, with aluminum heads that was basically what would be the L88. The general IP general L-72/M20 assembly 3889309 and IP L-72/M21 #3890483 weren't mated to M22 because changes would have had to be made!

Another theory is that CEC engines went out the door to like Traco and those were massaged for M22 fitting!

I am struggling over IP and IK to nail that down!

Stirring up, my favorite researching has been on Cheetahs, Mclarens, Chaparrals, Porsche 917's and stuff like that! I thought about jumping into that Cheetah thread because I have more on those than probably anyone! I am lazy and never do anything productive with my hobby interest, but Bill Thomas and the Cheetah needs a book!

As for 1966 M22's we are looking at the differing variants-

3844693?
3884694
3884695

For latter 1965/1966 model years
2879986
3879987

Differences like the speedometer drive and driven gear within the tail shaft asseblies specifically ranging as per the rear axle ratios!

oengus

This subject is one of the more interesting bits of folklore surrounding '66 cars. I don't know much more than anyone else, in spite of being the owner of a 425/427 coupe that was delivered with an M-22. I don't know where the "15" tale came from, it never made much sense to me. I worked on two other Chevrolets (not Corvettes) that I know came from the dealers with M-22s installed. One was a Caprice and the other was an El Camino. Both had solid-lifter big blocks. I never heard anyone say anything about the magic "15" until that number was published in M. F. Dobbins book (first edition). That book, when published was, I think, over twenty years after the fact. I hope there is someone still alive who has actual first-hand knowledge of the 15 M-22 folklore. To look at accounts of period racecars as evidence of anything "factory" or "original" is plain silly. The life expectancy of an original M-22 in anything like a competitive big block car was about 6 hours. Any more was great luck.

sub006

Another mission for the intrepid JohnZ!

TCracingCA

But even though I listed a number of these, I still doubt that any of the none race cars got them! Well maybe the proving car pilot car test car magazine tested in CD that turned the 12.8 had one. Therefore that is why I keep coming up with around 8 only approximately. I just don't believe a true production car coming down the line with a build sheet unescorted by someone higher up or CEC would have gotten one of these, because of the story of Zora's horde stashed in a back room. I am still inclined to believe the reason why he stashed them, was that they were probably refugees of the 1965 year (they didn't use them all) and stopped short of the total count of whatever that count was (I think 29?) and that is why some of them had the 1965 part numbers. I am sure gearing up (good pun for a tranny conversation), well gearing up for L88 production, they probably had a few pilot M22 trannies out for testing, like in the Penske Racers, etc.. I am sure one backed up the engine in the Penske Grand Sport also! I didn't list that on my list in the other thread. Therefore all of the normal pretty non race cars, probably found the claimed M22's from other Chevrolet cars and then you have all of the phony Vin stamping disease that runs amuck in our hobby!

oengus

Thanks for the reply, I'm glad I am not the only guy with this interest.

To reply, in reverse order, I'm pretty sure the Grandsports did not originally have M-22s in them. I don't think Muncie even made four-speeds at that time. The only G/S I ever saw was at Roller Chevrolet in Monterey. It had a B-W T-10 in it. We were there picking up transmission parts, so, naturally, curiosity about transmissions got the better of us.

The whole subject of the unavailability, to the great un-washed, of M-22s really makes no sense to me. If a buyer ordered a H-D 427, J-56 brakes, (had to order F-41 suspension with the motor-not an option), no radio, and heater delete, why in Hell would you not order, and insist on, the gearbox. It makes no sense. I had to sign a waiver of warranty rights to have my order accepted by Zone. This argument, coupled with the belief, as I related, that M-22s were delivered in other body styles makes the folklore hard to accept. I actually touched one of these boxes and I recall for a fact that it had a drain plug. In 1966, that was a slamdunk.

Buttonhead

The Corvette Black book says only 15 with the M22 were produced for the 1966 model year. No one has proven that to be incorrect.

TCracingCA

Chevrolet being a production car company and continuously reinforcing that mandate throughout, with the Corvette being one of their pets, I am sure power players existed heading up the other car line groups! Therefore M22 were not an exclusive Corvette toy!!!!!

That Penske Grand Sport when it got the IK engine fitted, was probably also fitted with an M22, but it has traveled many years to the current, and I can see a Super T-10 having ended up in it! The Super ones, definitely don't date back to 1966 (unless I have a fact wrong!).

I can also see guys ordering the M20's/M21's because they had been around awhile by 1966. Many an L72 just came with the non M22 trannies. I think you had to be connected up to the inner the circle, to be made aware of the M22 or HD 427 package.

Also a question, when did the first Bowtie Chevrolet emblem actually go onto the first Chevrolet. I want to see what others think. The Bowtie is now pretty universally recognized, but what was the date of it's origin?

oengus

Now we're having some fun. The oldest Chevrolet I have seen with the bowtie emblem was a 1917 Touring car. I saw it at a concours in Palm Springs. Also of interest, perhaps, is that it came originally with a V-8.

TCracingCA

They were getting the Bowtie emblem back onto cars in 1965. I definitely think that image is older, but I remember a lot of scripts with Chevrolet, or letter emblems, or such and less actual Bowtie emblems prior to that. I would have to look up a 1917 Chevrolet, but we definitely have to be mindful of one could have been placed onto something earlier than was stock. When I get home I am going to pull the old Dealership books out and see if that branding was visible and how early on.

I still think Chevrolet made a big 180 degree u turn in getting back a performance image in and around 1965/66.

dconlon19

out of these 15 m22 cars ,what is the possibility of one of these cars landing in Canada,at central chev, Toronto .

427 Sidepipes

FYI- According to GM Media:
The original Chevrolet bowtie badge was introduced in late 1913 by William C. Durant on a trio of new-for-1914 Chevrolet models.

midstyle

You must mean Gorries Chev, in dowtown Toronto. This is the David Billes car (of Canadian Tire family fame) and is a 396 VIN 18966 black/black big tank ordered strictly for racing. Ordered March 22nd, delivered 86 days later.

Excellent appendix in Alvin Colvin's "Chev by the numbers, '65-'69", which shows the sales agreement, factory order form, delivery transaction paperwork, Engineering change recommendations, with Zora's signature, among other well known GM people, ledger pages of Muncie production totals from "First Build" on 4-15/65 to first ship 4-19/65.

I find it incredible that this thread (and others about the M22) has gone so far without mention of this car, and this source of documentation. The car now resides in the Kevin Suydam collection.

tominohio

Since my numbers matching 1966 has the vin number on the trans why wouldn't a factory M22 match the vin if it's factory built??