TCracingCA

The Summer's Car owners in the past [brokered through Yenko Vin #122940 Best Photo #45, #31, #3 (were it's racing numbers)] indicated it had an IK stamped engine, which would mean both IK's got out the door! I had found this car Identied with an IT engine with mention of IT paperwork. I also found two sources that mention the 2 of these CEC assembled engines did ship to St. Louis, but with no indication when, but generally it is believed just one was shipped. I found more on Traco also and more on 1965 XXXX1 that I mentioned in the post above, after an edit. I learned more on M22 also, but they were an order option for 1965, but were expensive to make, they were noisy for the street etc. and the release was re-thought for 1966, I am still looking into those and other related things!

JohnZ

The two CEC-assembled HD engines weren't stamped "IK"; they were stamped referencing the ECR 68907 and Build Work Order 19450-B that created them.

TCracingCA

Initially i found mention of just one of the two shipped, but i have now found further mention of both being shipped! And I got out the info I had on the Summer's/Yenko car indicating IK!

I would say definitely 2 non-production 1966 425hp L88's built and delivered to racers and the rest non-L88's were non-production HD L-72 425hp rated Gear driven/Cammed cars out. Therefore anyone here remember working on this B engine package upgrade? In print was mention of a rememberance of special engines and parts!

TCracingCA

Engineering Code Recommendations like
#73712 dated 11/26/65 for 12/7/65
#79633 dated 5/17/66 for 6/7/66427 Eng. (CEC)
Page 5 of Tonawanda document "Service & End Product Engines" denoting 20 engines for Research & Development.

etc.

For the 1966 HD Corvette I think 8 total. Some think 13 total plus the two IK cars making 15 total based on 15 M22's. I think 22 engines-these 20 plus 2 IK's! I think some of that 20 count went to NASCAR and Drag racing! The 8 cars I think had M22's so far, but still looking!

PS John, I understand that you don't think they were stamped. But stamping and marking was a common practice! I think the cars that got out the door to racing customers would have been stamped, but true prototype , not necessarily so! That Yenko car claiming to be stamped IK, would be very important if it had aluminum heads! And I do see """replicated""" in this auction ad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am taking that into consideration, because I love the Investor/Car Hunting crowd and all of these magical claims and magical finds, and especially the magical histories they can assemble!!! So you can see the importance as to how many were shipped! That alone would go along way to substaniate such a car!!!!

JohnZ

I don't know if any of those Yenko, etc. engines were stamped "IK" or not, but I know that the two CEC Motor Room-built engines (one of which went to St. Louis) were not; they were stamped quite prominently with Engineering ECR and BWO identification.

TCracingCA

I know you are one of the most knowledgable and studied with sources of information that are impressive. based on what you shared, I would say the Yenko's weren't #3890485 IK stamped! Do you know whether either of the penske cars had a ECR BWO stamped engine?, because it would be obvious that they weren't IK stamped either! Unless we could get Roger Penske to talk or anyone remaining of the Traco group (others involved, I don't feel have an accurate recollection!), this all will stay a true mystery, with some making it all up as they go! It was the first time i really ever tore into this topic.

Even though I mess with you John at times, or joke around, I do have the highest respect for your sharing and knowledge. I hope the OP got his posting worth out of the thread particaption!

emccomas

Absolutely gentlemen. I have thoroughly enjoyed this discussion.
Many thanks to all.

Tyler Townsley

From another who worked at Tonawanda and has other sources of information.

quote

Yes the Chevrolet Engineering did assemble some big block engines but not very many because Tonawanda was well equipped to do so starting with the 1958 "W" engine program.

Even when CEC did assemble... they used Tonawanda iron castings at minimum, partially machined castings or fully machined components to do so. Same went for the aluminum heads but Winters made those castings.

unquote

The M 22s designated for the race cars had the vins stamped on them.

The story on the M 22s was that Duntov need a transmission for the higher HP motors that were in the back room but had to hide them from the auditors so he had a limited run order created then closed. It was so small that it was overlooked by the prying eyes. Some made it to the racing program and the left over were installed in production cars. This was discussed several years ago and NCRS recognizes this as a production possibility.

Tyler

TCracingCA

To date, the David Kimble Corvette Racing Book is about the closest to the true story in actual print on this little time period. There are parts that are vague on the Penske cars and wrong! This is what I think now after more reading and sources! I am leaning toward the two CEC build engines going out the door. If we back up, Penske was the most successful driver at that Nassau event as a driver with the most wins and then he was retiring. He then focused on getting his Dealership deal going! He brokered a special 1966 427 big block to one of his customers Elmer Bradley and during that transaction, Zora and him talked about his aspirations to be a Team Owner and Bradley VP of Marketing for Sun Oil put together the sponsorship. Zora was interested in a track test of his CEC built engines (IK) or Prototype L88 (whatever we decide to call them), so arrangements were made. I think the one engine did ship to St Louis, for install in the Red Car and the other did go to Traco. And this is the newest info I discovered, Traco saw that the aluminum heads were down on power. Then a decision was made to detune the build for endurance considerations and the iron heads were changed onto that engine and knowing they would be better for endurance. Coincidently at the track, they were seeing the same and that engine was pulled. And the Traco blueprinted etc. "one" went in and stayed in the car for this Daytona run and later for the Sebring race with the iron heads.

Because of the success of placing 1st at the Daytona, Penske was offered the two GS cars by Zora but wasn't needing and didn't have the funding to purchase both, so he acquired the one in the deal with Zora, and he talked Wintersteen into the second one. I do think the second CEC built engine went back into the GS. Therefore Yenko got neither of those engines!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That Yenko car is not an #3890485 IK is my opinion. Well Penske's approach to Sebring was to put the two level headed endurance drivers into the GT Car for the best chance of repeating a win and then paired the two hot shoes (Thompson and Guldstrand) into the radical experiment GS with the prototyped in drop of the CEC engine. Another hood was done, and Stahl did the headers etc. and off it went to race. The aluminum heads were tested again, trying to get the power level up to the level of the iron heads with porting work and during this, they found the reliability flaws that caused those heads to be shelved. No aluminum heads got out as HD offerings until the problems were solved by the spring of 1967. Well his strategy by Penske played out, the GT car won again, and the GS was crashed by Thompson at Sebring, whereas Guldstrand was the culprit at Daytona as he was coming to the pits. In 1966, the Chaparrals were still playing with the aluminum in the small block sizes, because of oil starvation problems with the big block that arose in testing mostly. Penske sold the Corvettes and got one in the Lola and that experiment was a bust (the big block failed), and that was also in 1966. Penske for potential sales of the new camaro model and the inception of the Trans Am went into that series, and Yenko became the go to Corvette guy getting things to test and run. He got connected up to the COPO program etc. and got the first to race 1967 L88 and the subsequent cars and parts.

I could continue writing with the racing timeline, which is the best clues as to everything that was happening and who, where, what and why------ but you guys get it now! It was all about the racing timelines, that solves this history!!!!!!!!

emccomas

Tyler;

Can you point me at where this was discussed several years ago. I would like to catch up. Thanks.

Ed

JohnZ

The VIN derivatives were stamped on the Engine Dress Line at St. Louis, when the cars were built; nobody knew what the VINs were ahead of time.

Tyler Townsley

I should have said scratched rather than stamped. That way Zora kept track of them and what caused them to fail if they did.

Tyler

TCracingCA

That was the one in 1965 was a black car when delivered, but in the paperwork was listed as blue, and the sheet had M20 or M21, but the Dealership wrote in M22 and the VIN stamp matches everything else. I have the Owner's name somewhere! But that car went to a racer in Canada.

That claimed first M22 car does sound funky to me!

TCracingCA

Even taking Guldstrand's (great guy, highest tier of Corvette guy, but not much of a historian, but does he have to be and i am glad he is willing to talk- right or wrong on the exact recollections! I thank him for sharing as much as he has, but we just need to decipher it!) his recollections, after comparisons and interpretation, looking for merit and accuracy, turn up some clues! He mentions in the Grand Sport book, the Daytona Mystery motors (plural)! Since one i believe was sent to Traco and the other went diectly in the car, he mentioned that the mystery motor (singular- "it" or one!) prior to Sebring was sent to Traco. Therefore if one came from Traco detuned, and won it's class-- that one had the Traco treatment! Therefore the second one that came out of the car after practice testing was the one that now was getting the Traco treatment and it was meant for the GS like I thought. Mention was made how he "Guldstrand" supervised the detune?? And i doubt- God Bless him, great guy-- that he could teach or guide the experienced Traco guys on an engine build!!!!!!!! So a mystery motor if we take this recollection on Page 157 into account, one of those IK's did go into that GS! The other that shipped from Traco detuned with the aluminum heads changed to iron, stayed in the now Blue sponsorship billboard that was a bold statement, since International racing colors was still the norm! Boy did those cars stand out!

Back to Yenko, the more I read overall the farther I go from Yenko having an IK aluminum head engine! Also since the aluminum heads were bad, with issues, I doubt any other IK builds were done or got out the door! But as i said earlier I had seen claim of IT L88 going in the Best Photo Summers Convertible! Therefore I would bet that CEC was still trying to get the problems with those heads worked out and a late model year release in a car to Yenko could have been a good real world test bed to accomplishing it! Since many think this car had something special! I could see an early testing of the L88. Plus Traco now had at least two sets of those heads!

i also think based on JohnZ's add on how those two CEC assembled engines were stamped that these L88 Daytona mystery motors were pre-L88 actually and the engines were essentially still prototype builds, because the design plans for L88 were finalized after that, and they were still trying to work out the cylinder heads. I would say that summers car was wearing aluminum heads, but later since Yenko had the most experience outside of Traco doing his blueprint prep/testing, he ended up after Penske sold his Corvettes as the go to guy and was set up to race the first raced 1967 L88! I still am wondering how the stampings or lack of were scrutineered by the FIA event organizers! If stamped so, then there is paperwork submitted after the Homologation of the IP that we haven't found, that these were an evolution of the model for the GT car, but not needed for the GS roadster because it ran in prototype class.

we know that #45, #3 Summers car was special, we just don't know how special, but i don't think it was technically an L88 (but an HD bottom end, since Penske had the known 2 engines, but got a set of heads in aluminum). By that date, they were well passed the IK almost. but this is the period of those final CER changes from IK to IT, exactly about the same release time frame/build of that car! I have to look into it's race history and what it ran and how it was classified in June 1966. I also need to pull up the Rathman sold Towers owned Green 1967 prototype to see what dates are on that! We know the Delorenzo car and the Yenko 1967 car releases! I have to look up the running plan for that 1967 Sebring race and whether it did that race with the alum heads!

TCracingCA

From the Mark II testing and running, to stay with the under 400 cube mandate-- Chevrolet put out the 396 size for production! But when they made the decision to up it to 427 officially, they fired the shot that they were back in the High performance war and the 427 Cobra caused that!

TCracingCA

I think the Penske part is pretty close to what happened. I keep reading more and looking at the CEC stuff and Assembly paperwork.

I think the 1966 planned run was to be IK code under #3890485 and the two CEC built engines with aluminum heads and the funky stampings. Therefore I looked into the M22 tranny's and the story of Zora keeping them out of sight, etc.! I haven't found anything but notes or insider comments about IK, and then the change from IK to IT. Nothing official in documents outside of the mention of the two CEC assembled engines. I see the 20 CEC engines and just read they were stamped with X's. And I see various cars claimed to have IK stampings with one listed in The Complete Restoration & Technical Guide 63-67. I wasn't going to give the validity of IK stamped Iron head engines, because L88 and L89 are associated with aliminum heads. I still think for racing, the Tech inspectors would still be looking for and at the stampings. I also can't find anything built under #3893231 (IK) except that #3893263 (L88) replaces it! I think since this number even exists, it must be real!

So
#3890485 is IK aluminum heads
#3893231 is IK iron heads
#3893263 is IT back to aluminum heads



Here is where i am, I think they started down the road with Aluminum heads, and they had the problems. The heads also weren't allowing the oil drain back and the cars were driven on the tachs at both Daytona and Sebring was stated, but they had the iron heads which makes me scratch my head, but most endurance racing is done with focus on rpms usually period! I am thinking based on other IK evidence and thoughts of it's existence. That IK bottom ends were just mated to Iron heads with the B engine parts.

Therefore I think we will just have to do the car count vice M22 transmissions.

The proving grounds Car (this car might have been running around on the 1965 M22 tranny run or got the first one of the 1966 lot)
Penske GT Coupe got one M22
Penske GS I am sure got one also.
Yenko's sebring Racer (definitely one)
Hooper's AP racer (Hooper personally told me that his 1966 was an M22, and he was still looking for that car!)
The Gordon Wilson car (i believe this is one!)
The restoration Book car (i have to figure out this car)
#8 Bergen/johnson racer (I would say this is one)
Suydam's red coupe (Suydam has a reputation for knowing what he buys!)
European Export Arutenoff car (a likely story, I buy it!)
Red Convertible Hawkins Harp NCRS checked
Maroon Coupe
Yellow Conv
White coupe w AR mags
Summer's car Best Photo (just passing thru Yenko, we know it was special)
The #67 Coupe racer Cornelius/Brown/Boo (I doubt this is one! just too early, i have to study up on it! And someone that knows them well had it and causes me questions)
And the last of the M22 tranny cars would be the Towers 1967 prototype L88. (Might not have gotten one of the 15 M22's)
And so on! Etc.

I would have to go get together all of those notes, because I had eight total, and then the two Penske used at least two M22 Tranny's and the proving grounds car,and the L88 prototype. So technically I am at 12 M22 cars officially, but have other possibles!

Then I would say at the time just after the Summers car and the CER change mentioning L88, they were back to releasing aluminum heads again but for testing and wanted to designate that differently. I think the Summers car was the last IK bottom end, with Iron heads! And yes you all heard right, I am changing back on that car being an IK based on the build dates!

Thus i will be running thru cars now and which ones might be the HD competition builds.

TCracingCA

I am going to go back and read any other past thread on these topics to see how close to popular opinion I got, from my self study!

TCracingCA

TCracingCA

ronracer77

Hi, Lots of knowledge and info in this thread. Can I ask for a little more?
In 1972 I bought a 1966 Corvette roadster race car. it was ragged out painted bronze with DEAN's RED BALL EXPRESS. the motor was a 283. The VIN says it was a coupe it looks like it was a big block. I would really like to know where it started. Perhaps it was an IK or IP code. I have been asking Chevrolet but no help yet. Car is listed on the CORVETTE RACE CAR REGISTRY. Would appreciate any help identifying it.