Re-stamping, where do we draw the line
02-25-2015, 01:13 PM
#21
Race Director
Yeah - that was pretty much my logic when I specifically went shopping for a clear-cut NOM car. Didn't really want to have to deal with verifying and checking all the various components, etc. But, that is me and I understand those who seek out the original or survivor type car and why they are valued.
02-25-2015, 01:33 PM
#22
Race Director
02-25-2015, 01:42 PM
#23
Le Mans Master
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St. Jude Donor '05, '09, '15
So I have a question that didn't get answered
We seem to be so hung up on re-stamped engines, with some people calling it fraud (passing off a re-stamp as original), other people saying no big deal.
We all realize that there are a lot of cars with re-stamps in them; many more that most of us realize.
Every C1 with a replacement generator, starter or distributor tag is a re-stamp. And it is even more significant than that, since the replacement DELCO tags are not the same as the original tags. They are easily detectible. The positioning of the printed lettering on the replacement tags is different that the positioning on original tags.
Of course the argument is that it's just a generator or starter or distributor, it not like it is the engine.
I fail to see the distinction. We also see re-stamped alternators and starters where the numbers are not on a separate tag.
So here is the question..
Is an original car, with the original engine, and a re-stamped generator, distributor, starter an "original car".
Even if the generator, starter, distributor were the original parts, how would anyone know?
We spend so much time focusing on the engine.... what about the transmission, rear end, generator, distributor, starter... any part that has a stamped number on it?
And then we get into parts that have VIN derivatives stamped on them (engines and trans after mid 1960).
And what about replacing an engine with another engine that matches the cars dates (prior to mid 1960). As an example, turning a 1959 single four car into a two four car. Not the "born with" engine, but still no re-stamping has occurred.
OK, another example... original engine in a 59 single four car is long gone. Replace is with a correctly dated 59 Corvette engine that is also a single four engine.
Where do YOU draw the line?
We seem to be so hung up on re-stamped engines, with some people calling it fraud (passing off a re-stamp as original), other people saying no big deal.
We all realize that there are a lot of cars with re-stamps in them; many more that most of us realize.
Every C1 with a replacement generator, starter or distributor tag is a re-stamp. And it is even more significant than that, since the replacement DELCO tags are not the same as the original tags. They are easily detectible. The positioning of the printed lettering on the replacement tags is different that the positioning on original tags.
Of course the argument is that it's just a generator or starter or distributor, it not like it is the engine.
I fail to see the distinction. We also see re-stamped alternators and starters where the numbers are not on a separate tag.
So here is the question..
Is an original car, with the original engine, and a re-stamped generator, distributor, starter an "original car".
Even if the generator, starter, distributor were the original parts, how would anyone know?
We spend so much time focusing on the engine.... what about the transmission, rear end, generator, distributor, starter... any part that has a stamped number on it?
And then we get into parts that have VIN derivatives stamped on them (engines and trans after mid 1960).
And what about replacing an engine with another engine that matches the cars dates (prior to mid 1960). As an example, turning a 1959 single four car into a two four car. Not the "born with" engine, but still no re-stamping has occurred.
OK, another example... original engine in a 59 single four car is long gone. Replace is with a correctly dated 59 Corvette engine that is also a single four engine.
Where do YOU draw the line?
Tom
02-25-2015, 08:22 PM
#25
Team Owner
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I will say it again. Once a engine stamp stops making a car lose its perceived value then it won't mater. I never heard of anyone not buying a car because the alt,starter, carb, ect was not orginal but the engine is. Last week I had a person ask me if I thought the stamp pad on his 67 L71 was real or not. I refused to answer with a clear answer As I told him that is a 15k yes or no. And I don't want any part of that.
Most of the re stamps are done to deceive the next buyer. The stampd and numbers only mater to a very few people.
Most of the re stamps are done to deceive the next buyer. The stampd and numbers only mater to a very few people.
02-25-2015, 08:24 PM
#26
Le Mans Master
Seems to me... unless you've retained and preserved every single component on the car... the restamp is of little concern.
Unless you've got the original light bulbs, original belts, tires, windshield wipers, oil filter and all the other components that wear out on every car ever made in the history of cars... then it should be of little concern.
Your car is NOT ORIGINAL. PERIOD! GET OVER IT!
Unless you've got the original light bulbs, original belts, tires, windshield wipers, oil filter and all the other components that wear out on every car ever made in the history of cars... then it should be of little concern.
Your car is NOT ORIGINAL. PERIOD! GET OVER IT!
02-25-2015, 08:33 PM
#27
Race Director
The problem with restamps is...I may disclose it is a restamp and even sell it with full disclosure. Then, in 5 years the buyer decides to sell it and because he wants to get big bucks he claims it is original and not a restamp. The initial intention of the original restorer in just having the right numbers and disclosing it has turned into an attempted fraud by the buyer turned seller later on.
Last edited by Randy G.; 02-25-2015 at 08:35 PM.
02-25-2015, 08:51 PM
#28
Team Owner
I didn't feel anyone was fighting on the topic, yes differing opinions!
Hopefully I will never have to sell mine. I don't choose to make my hobby interest into a business. Yes I understand the attraction of having a Corvette related business. Yes it is nice to get top dollar if you are selling stuff, etc. etc. etc.
Ok, if we can tell it is restamped or something is off on your dates, or broach marks or whatever, then I personally will feel suspicous about your car!!!!! Period. When you push to be convincing that everything is on the up and up, I believe you less. When it is too good to be true, then I will be more on guard. If things look new, then I see red flags! And etc. etc. etc. When I feel your car is not honest, I hope it hurts your value!!!!!!
And I have had such a positive outlook on things, being such a beautiful day!
Buy your date replicated stamped goodies and go fool the ignorant!
Ok, if we can tell it is restamped or something is off on your dates, or broach marks or whatever, then I personally will feel suspicous about your car!!!!! Period. When you push to be convincing that everything is on the up and up, I believe you less. When it is too good to be true, then I will be more on guard. If things look new, then I see red flags! And etc. etc. etc. When I feel your car is not honest, I hope it hurts your value!!!!!!
And I have had such a positive outlook on things, being such a beautiful day!
Buy your date replicated stamped goodies and go fool the ignorant!
02-25-2015, 08:52 PM
#29
Burning Brakes
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The only "fraud" that bothers me are the small block cars that wear big block hoods! If the numbers are changed on the fender ('65/'66) or on the hood ('67) then that should be an indictable offense.YOU know who you are! Turn yourself in.
02-25-2015, 08:58 PM
#30
Team Owner
Does the Corvette Monopoly Game
Have a go to jail square on the board. I have never bought that game. We should create an internet interactive game on Corvette empire building, trading, collecting around all of this controversy. Maybe evolve it into like a fantasy styled sports game using real cars etc.
PS I am just naturally too paranoid anyways, to buy nice shiny cars!
PS I am just naturally too paranoid anyways, to buy nice shiny cars!
Last edited by TCracingCA; 02-25-2015 at 09:03 PM.
02-25-2015, 10:26 PM
#31
Team Owner
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St. Jude Donor '12-'13-'14-'15, '19
So I have a question that didn't get answered
We seem to be so hung up on re-stamped engines, with some people calling it fraud (passing off a re-stamp as original), other people saying no big deal.
We all realize that there are a lot of cars with re-stamps in them; many more that most of us realize.
Every C1 with a replacement generator, starter or distributor tag is a re-stamp. And it is even more significant than that, since the replacement DELCO tags are not the same as the original tags. They are easily detectible. The positioning of the printed lettering on the replacement tags is different that the positioning on original tags.
Of course the argument is that it's just a generator or starter or distributor, it not like it is the engine.
I fail to see the distinction. We also see re-stamped alternators and starters where the numbers are not on a separate tag.
So here is the question..
Is an original car, with the original engine, and a re-stamped generator, distributor, starter an "original car".
Even if the generator, starter, distributor were the original parts, how would anyone know?
We spend so much time focusing on the engine.... what about the transmission, rear end, generator, distributor, starter... any part that has a stamped number on it?
And then we get into parts that have VIN derivatives stamped on them (engines and trans after mid 1960).
And what about replacing an engine with another engine that matches the cars dates (prior to mid 1960). As an example, turning a 1959 single four car into a two four car. Not the "born with" engine, but still no re-stamping has occurred.
OK, another example... original engine in a 59 single four car is long gone. Replace is with a correctly dated 59 Corvette engine that is also a single four engine.
Where do YOU draw the line?
We seem to be so hung up on re-stamped engines, with some people calling it fraud (passing off a re-stamp as original), other people saying no big deal.
We all realize that there are a lot of cars with re-stamps in them; many more that most of us realize.
Every C1 with a replacement generator, starter or distributor tag is a re-stamp. And it is even more significant than that, since the replacement DELCO tags are not the same as the original tags. They are easily detectible. The positioning of the printed lettering on the replacement tags is different that the positioning on original tags.
Of course the argument is that it's just a generator or starter or distributor, it not like it is the engine.
I fail to see the distinction. We also see re-stamped alternators and starters where the numbers are not on a separate tag.
So here is the question..
Is an original car, with the original engine, and a re-stamped generator, distributor, starter an "original car".
Even if the generator, starter, distributor were the original parts, how would anyone know?
We spend so much time focusing on the engine.... what about the transmission, rear end, generator, distributor, starter... any part that has a stamped number on it?
And then we get into parts that have VIN derivatives stamped on them (engines and trans after mid 1960).
And what about replacing an engine with another engine that matches the cars dates (prior to mid 1960). As an example, turning a 1959 single four car into a two four car. Not the "born with" engine, but still no re-stamping has occurred.
OK, another example... original engine in a 59 single four car is long gone. Replace is with a correctly dated 59 Corvette engine that is also a single four engine.
Where do YOU draw the line?
Do you plan on having it judged? What are the rules of the judging organization? If they don't care, why should I?
Am I buying a car and am looking to spend top dollar for an original? Then re stamps are not going to work.
Am I a recreational driver? I don't give a hoot.
Am I looking for a car that will retain its value? Then the drivetrain is important, the wear items not so much.
Do i enjoy RESTORING cars back to a factory appearance? Then your definition of a re-stamp is too strict for me, and probably 98% of people in the hobby.
02-25-2015, 10:47 PM
#32
Team Owner
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And the majority of the responses are precisely as I expected.
For the record, I am not talking about faking a car from one configuration to another (i.e. 300 hp to 435 hp). I am talking about attempting to replicate the engine pad that is consistent with the original engine.
Ladies and Gentlemen, I offer for consideration the following observation:
Re-stamping of ANY part on a car is an economic decision, not a moral decision.
If original engine cars didn't command a premium in the market, there would not be a pervasive re-stamping industry.
The other re-stamped parts are just as egregious, but they don't significantly impact the value of the car. Re-stamped generators, starters, distributors, carburetors, etc. are easily detected, and we pretty much just wave them by. Why? Because they don't impact the value of the car.
However, we scrutinize engine pads like they are a crime scene. Why? Again, because they do impact the value of the car.
So, recreating a 67 437 435 hp engine is either a "approved restoration effort" or "fraud", depending on who is answering the question.
I keep going back to the definition of "typical of factory production".
So I guess the forensics investigation goes something like this:
1. Is the engine the born with engine?
Yes - done!
No - is the engine detectible as a restoration engine?
No - done!
Yes - how much does it devalue the car?
It all come down to economics, and no whining, moaning, groaning, teeth gnashing, etc. is going to change that.
What will change that is our collective market valuations of cars and there respective engine situations.
We did this to ourselves.
For the record, I am not talking about faking a car from one configuration to another (i.e. 300 hp to 435 hp). I am talking about attempting to replicate the engine pad that is consistent with the original engine.
Ladies and Gentlemen, I offer for consideration the following observation:
Re-stamping of ANY part on a car is an economic decision, not a moral decision.
If original engine cars didn't command a premium in the market, there would not be a pervasive re-stamping industry.
The other re-stamped parts are just as egregious, but they don't significantly impact the value of the car. Re-stamped generators, starters, distributors, carburetors, etc. are easily detected, and we pretty much just wave them by. Why? Because they don't impact the value of the car.
However, we scrutinize engine pads like they are a crime scene. Why? Again, because they do impact the value of the car.
So, recreating a 67 437 435 hp engine is either a "approved restoration effort" or "fraud", depending on who is answering the question.
I keep going back to the definition of "typical of factory production".
So I guess the forensics investigation goes something like this:
1. Is the engine the born with engine?
Yes - done!
No - is the engine detectible as a restoration engine?
No - done!
Yes - how much does it devalue the car?
It all come down to economics, and no whining, moaning, groaning, teeth gnashing, etc. is going to change that.
What will change that is our collective market valuations of cars and there respective engine situations.
We did this to ourselves.
02-25-2015, 11:07 PM
#34
Race Director
Why not, I'll play.
I don't see the issue in the question.
There were thousands and thousands of possibly correct generators, starters and distributors that were originally produced for these cars that could possibly be found and installed on a car in a refurbish without any need for "restamping" anything. I've found correct numbered and dated alternators for all my C2s and C3s for instance, with absolutely no need to "re-stamp." They are plentiful for the most part.
We can get into a semantics argument for the 1000th time, but this is a good time to use the distinction of "numbers matching" (VIN stamped on a part like an engine which matches a car's VIN) vs. "correct" (appropriate part number and date on an alternator). I think this serves to illustrate the difference in these parts.
Some parts might have to be full repros if an original correct part isnt available. I guess you can stamp a part number on something in rare cases. Making up a correct distributor tag is just a hobbyist's detail that is not meant to fool anyone in my opinion.
I bought a repro expansion tank for my '63 and (gasp) had the date stamped on it that was on the original, because I like it to look right. Do I need to "disclose" something?
I do things with my car based on my preferences and how I like it to look. I don't get them judged by Bloomington or NCRS, so I'm not sure if that's the difference.
I simply do not even see the question of comparing a block that have been decked, rebroached and stamped to match a particular car, and the accompanying difference in value that this could bring as being remotely relevant to insignificant, plentiful peripheral parts like distributors and alternators or small items stamped for detail purposes.
IMO, of course.
I don't see the issue in the question.
There were thousands and thousands of possibly correct generators, starters and distributors that were originally produced for these cars that could possibly be found and installed on a car in a refurbish without any need for "restamping" anything. I've found correct numbered and dated alternators for all my C2s and C3s for instance, with absolutely no need to "re-stamp." They are plentiful for the most part.
We can get into a semantics argument for the 1000th time, but this is a good time to use the distinction of "numbers matching" (VIN stamped on a part like an engine which matches a car's VIN) vs. "correct" (appropriate part number and date on an alternator). I think this serves to illustrate the difference in these parts.
Some parts might have to be full repros if an original correct part isnt available. I guess you can stamp a part number on something in rare cases. Making up a correct distributor tag is just a hobbyist's detail that is not meant to fool anyone in my opinion.
I bought a repro expansion tank for my '63 and (gasp) had the date stamped on it that was on the original, because I like it to look right. Do I need to "disclose" something?
I do things with my car based on my preferences and how I like it to look. I don't get them judged by Bloomington or NCRS, so I'm not sure if that's the difference.
I simply do not even see the question of comparing a block that have been decked, rebroached and stamped to match a particular car, and the accompanying difference in value that this could bring as being remotely relevant to insignificant, plentiful peripheral parts like distributors and alternators or small items stamped for detail purposes.
IMO, of course.
Also, does anyone have any information that someone is re-stamping C2 serial numbers on the transmission?
Rick
02-25-2015, 11:47 PM
#35
Le Mans Master
I place myself in the enthusiast category, my best example of what I have is my 03Z06 which I frequently drive on 500+ miles round trips to families house, and always with a big smile on my face, going on 70K miles now and have owned since 2004 when bought from original owner with 11k on it 
enjoy them if it floats your boat or show and store if that is your thing.
enjoy them if it floats your boat or show and store if that is your thing.
02-26-2015, 02:16 AM
#36
Drifting
I don't like that those low hp hydraulic lifter spud bb's get to use the same hoods as the solid lifter cars. There oughta be a law!!
02-26-2015, 06:49 AM
#38
Safety Car
Re-stamping of ANY part on a car is an economic decision, not a moral decision.
The reason numbers are changed/re-stamped is for deceptive purposes. Either we are deceiving ourselves (which, is not inherently a bad thing) or deceiving other people (which IS a bad thing.
I don't know how cars are judged at events where such things matter. But If you have a re-stamped block, and have to tell them its re-stamped... why re-stamp it at all? While the original re-stamper may have the most honest of intentions... there is no guarantee that the next owner, let alone 5 more owners down the road will have the same honest intentions.
Now, if you have good documentation, and loose # due to a block decking... that is entirely different... and probably another topic altogether...
When you run in circles where those numbers are important for judging, status, brag rights.. whatever, you are going to run the risk of being on the receiving end of that deceiving.
Personally, I can barely afford the cost of admission into the Corvette Brotherhood tent, so flying with the numbers eagles in the upper echelon is certainly out of the question (though I respect what they have done for the good of all of us in the hobby).
Give me a driver with a NOM any day... something to bang on in the garage and drive in the rain. Stop by the dairy queen and let my 10 year old boy get a big cone on a hot day and let em' eat in in the car on the way home!
We, are making memories...
we certainly are
Last edited by Revfan; 02-26-2015 at 06:57 AM.
02-26-2015, 06:57 AM
#39
Team Owner
I bought a Delco tag for the passenger car generator in my '61 along with the mounting rivets - date code and number correct. Cut the heads off the rivets and JB-Welded the tag onto the generator. Had nothing to do with economics - just aesthetics. It looked bad under the hood without that IMO - I have a rebuilt Corvette date-code correct generator in my 'spares locker' but the one on the car looks fine now and runs perfectly so its staying.
If I sell the car (and remember) I'll disclose it and include the second generator. Its a $175 item; not like a restamped motor.
If someone will tell me where to turn myself in I'll surrender peacefully, FBI; local police; Department of Homeland Security. Hopefully I'll have internet access while incarcerated.
Geez, make this stop already!
If I sell the car (and remember) I'll disclose it and include the second generator. Its a $175 item; not like a restamped motor.
If someone will tell me where to turn myself in I'll surrender peacefully, FBI; local police; Department of Homeland Security. Hopefully I'll have internet access while incarcerated.
Geez, make this stop already!
