emccomas

So I have a question that didn't get answered

We seem to be so hung up on re-stamped engines, with some people calling it fraud (passing off a re-stamp as original), other people saying no big deal.

We all realize that there are a lot of cars with re-stamps in them; many more that most of us realize.

Every C1 with a replacement generator, starter or distributor tag is a re-stamp. And it is even more significant than that, since the replacement DELCO tags are not the same as the original tags. They are easily detectible. The positioning of the printed lettering on the replacement tags is different that the positioning on original tags.

Of course the argument is that it's just a generator or starter or distributor, it not like it is the engine.

I fail to see the distinction. We also see re-stamped alternators and starters where the numbers are not on a separate tag.

So here is the question..

Is an original car, with the original engine, and a re-stamped generator, distributor, starter an "original car".

Even if the generator, starter, distributor were the original parts, how would anyone know?

We spend so much time focusing on the engine.... what about the transmission, rear end, generator, distributor, starter... any part that has a stamped number on it?

And then we get into parts that have VIN derivatives stamped on them (engines and trans after mid 1960).

And what about replacing an engine with another engine that matches the cars dates (prior to mid 1960). As an example, turning a 1959 single four car into a two four car. Not the "born with" engine, but still no re-stamping has occurred.

OK, another example... original engine in a 59 single four car is long gone. Replace is with a correctly dated 59 Corvette engine that is also a single four engine.

Where do YOU draw the line?

Revfan

I am not trying to derail your thread or your question, but you could draw a venn diagram with unlimited amount of little circles discerning who cares more about numbers stamped into metal and if something is the right shade of black or not.

All of your questions seem to be regarding NCRS judging and what that particular organization deems original. I appreciate what that organization is and does, and, while I a member, I can't afford to have or restore a car they would consider "Top Flight".
Ironically, the closer a car gets to its 100% "Top Flight" status, the less likely I am to see it out on the road on a regular basis. And personally, I am ALL ABOUT driving my car.

The important thing is where YOU stand on the subject. Shouldn't really matter to you what I think really.

Because...

There will always be folks with LOTS of cash to spend on what other people tell them is the most desirable thing to have - All original, All matching, All stock... etc so numbers are EVERYTHING to them.

And there will always be folks who are interested in the Old/Classic Styling, but want modern performance.... So numbers don mean much, cause they are going to swap that part out anyway.

And there will always be folks that are just happy to have a seat at the table (This is ME!).. and get what they get and can afford... so if its a NOM, repaint, or Franken-Corvette... they are just happy to be a member of the club.


One of the things I read on this forum when I was a new member was, "Nobody I ever gave a ride to in my Corvette ever cared if it was numbers matching or not".

That kind of stuck with me, and I keep my head held high at any car show, swap me, or forum thread.

Frankie the Fink

Well I guess we are going to get the Wikipedia definitions of "survivor", "original", "numbers matching" again. The never ending argument, is mind-numbingly tedious and nothing gets resolved regarding this.

rich5962

Okay I'm all wound up with coffee already since 4AM, so I'll jump in.

I think no matter what has a number, engine, generator, etc, it's just a number. It is what it is. I feel the importance is disclosure.

I restored a '67 a few years ago that was originally a 435 horse tri-power. It had a 283 in it when it came to the shop. We had a history of the car to day one. The original owner blew it up many years ago.

So we got a correct cast & pad dated 427, got the other dated pieces, heads, distributor, alternator, etc and put it all together. We returned it to the way it was in 1967. BUT............

We disclosed what we did!

This to me is the most important factor of restoration. See attachment at the bottom of this post.....

Rich

emccomas

I agree completely that disclosure is an important part of the equation.

But what I am really trying to find out is how everyone feels about re-stamped parts OTHER than the engine.

So lets say we have an original engine car, with every other stamped numbered part on it a re-stamp. Lets say a 61, which has a VIN on the engine pad. The generator, distributor, starter, etc. etc. are re-stamped. And since the reproduction DELCO REMY tags are detectible from original, all of the re-stamped parts are easily detectible.

So, like I asked earlier, where do we draw the line?

65hihp

Couldn't care less about any parts re-stamped. Life is too short to be concerned about such things.

MasterDave

I don't think we draw the line......you (or each of us) do. Disclosure is the issue IMO. I personally would not re-stamp anything on any car, but I know a guy who does and even rents his 'original' stamp set out to restorers around the country. Again, disclosure.

JRRHINO

Stamps are easy broach marks are not! (until now) where will it go or end? what matters to me is I love driving my 65 L79 roadster with the top down

67vetteal

Re-stamping with Disclosure is acceptable as that's my car. But what sense does it make to just have the engine match is nothing else does? Al W.

ricks327

A couple of points:
1. If I remember correctly the only parts on a C2 that have parts that have identifying stamped parts are the frame, engine and transmission. Beyond that there are part numbers and date codes on other parts but they can not be identified as coming from a particular car.
The frame stamping is very difficult to see on most 50 year old cars unless you lift the body. Don't think restamping is an issue unless the frame is replaced
Engine restamping is obviously done. Some results are detectable and other are not.
Trans restamping, I haven't heard much about this but would think it would be very difficult to do.
2. Revfan, lots of folks drive their TopFlight cars. I have been on 2 Power Tours, last year I did the Long Haul and put 3,000 miles on in 10 days. Just because my car is a Top Flight, it gets driven regularly in our short summer driving season. I frequently go to the garage, admire the beauty of the car, then think of a reason to go for a ride.
I even have run it at the track.
Rick

Bill Pilon

I have had my vette for 35 years it is still a daily driver, I could care less about the numbers as long as the stuff is" period correct", hell with the repo junk and service parts we are getting after a while the car will be more foreign than domestic anyway.--Bill

chevahaulic

If the history of the car can be traced back to the early 70s by title & current owner I would tend to believe the numbers are correct. If " numbers " are a big deal do your homework. Counterfeiters ( the masked restampers ) get better at their trade as the price of important cars sky rocket. Why do you think major auctions make disclosures stating they are not responsible for advertised information.. They can't tell, the average person can't tell, the bankers take someones word and sue them later.
Has little to do with enjoying the hobby or a classic car. " Egos, flash money, and sales pitches " are and always will be a part of any perceived investment opportunity mostly for a quick buck.
I will take a good body / frame / over matching numbers any day of the week. I am a frugal buyer with a great attraction for Chevrolet brand vehicles. Old coupes are us !

csherman

ok I am in
my .02
I like born with better.
Original is a BS word and is thrown around too loosely.
Question - did the "part" come with the car when it was born.

If a car was born with a certain engine or transmission and lets say it was destroyed or removed......
the car was still born with a certain engine - correct
SO....if a restorer finds a "correct" engine, "correct" date, "correct" part number.....then stamps the appropriate number .....
The car is thus restored to its correct configuration - right?
It doesnt have the engine it was born with but it is now restored to appear just like it left the factory

Here is where I have a problem
FAKES
If a car was born with a 427 390hp car and some one fakes the trim tag and the engine to be a 427 435 hp car
Now I have a problem.......

SBR

The line should be drawn when restamping, whether it's an engine or carb, alt or whatever else is used to deceive.

65hihp

Rick
that is a thing of beauty from any angle and a pure joy to drive I'm sure. And re-stamped numbers or no re-stamped numbers have no effect whatsoever.

Vette Daddy

with Chris.

As for judging, this hobby is supposed to FUN, IMO. Judging needs to actually "accept" the Typical Factory appearance. Too many self proclaimed experts / judges think they just "have to find something wrong" in their eyes. Not necessarily something in the JM. Just find something they can spout off about. I call BS.

It's just a futile battle that has proven itself ridiculous.

This is just my opinion and could care less if anyone agrees with it or not.

vettebuyer6369

Why not, I'll play.

I don't see the issue in the question.

There were thousands and thousands of possibly correct generators, starters and distributors that were originally produced for these cars that could possibly be found and installed on a car in a refurbish without any need for "restamping" anything. I've found correct numbered and dated alternators for all my C2s and C3s for instance, with absolutely no need to "re-stamp." They are plentiful for the most part.

We can get into a semantics argument for the 1000th time, but this is a good time to use the distinction of "numbers matching" (VIN stamped on a part like an engine which matches a car's VIN) vs. "correct" (appropriate part number and date on an alternator). I think this serves to illustrate the difference in these parts.

Some parts might have to be full repros if an original correct part isnt available. I guess you can stamp a part number on something in rare cases. Making up a correct distributor tag is just a hobbyist's detail that is not meant to fool anyone in my opinion.

I bought a repro expansion tank for my '63 and (gasp) had the date stamped on it that was on the original, because I like it to look right. Do I need to "disclose" something?

I do things with my car based on my preferences and how I like it to look. I don't get them judged by Bloomington or NCRS, so I'm not sure if that's the difference.

I simply do not even see the question of comparing a block that have been decked, rebroached and stamped to match a particular car, and the accompanying difference in value that this could bring as being remotely relevant to insignificant, plentiful peripheral parts like distributors and alternators or small items stamped for detail purposes.

IMO, of course.

After38Years

In the short run: Alternators/generators, distributors, starters, fuel pumps, belts, hoses, original gas and oil, brakes, weather stripping....

In the long run: Engines, transmissions, rear ends, wheel bearings, bodies...

Cars are consumable. The only totally original car would be one that comes off the assembly line is never started and is placed in a hermetically sealed container. Oh wait, that's called a casket...

A speculator buys a car and tucks it away, believing it will make money. An enthusiast buys a car and drives it as much as he can, not worrying about how much it will be worth when he's through with it. We all fall somewhere on that continuum.

Disclosure is the only requirement when talking sales $$$

MCMLXI

My .02

I deliberately did NOT restamp my pad when my replacement block was decked and rebuilt. My pad is now wiped clean of all numbers.

I wanted to be honest about disclosing that my car had a replacement block during judging and/or discussing a future sale of the car.

And it not a big deal to have a decked block, as a Top Flight or Bloomington Gold certification can still be achieved if you choose to pursue those awards.

Kevin

Velox

This is my concern, I agree entirely with SBR