Utahcarguy

I've been having a pretty rough week with my '61. I took it out for a drive last weekend for the first time this year (started it every few weeks during winter). I drove it a few miles and it was running rough, so I pulled over and it died.

Turns out a spark plug wire came off. I re-installed it and started her back up. I found that when the choke was all the way open, she wanted to die. So I used a zip tie to disable the choke so it would stay partially closed (electric choke not currently working due to broken power cable. Bought a replacement last week. Still need to install). Then I drove home without issue. When I got back home, she was running less than perfect, but I shut her down and that was it for the day.

A couple days later, I went to drive the car, but I first decided to reset my idle mixture screws thinking that was my "running rough" issue. I turned them all the way in, then 1.5 turns out (per the manual). I went to start the car and she would only crank. I pulled a spark plug and it was fouled (I don't think my oil Chromoly rings have fully seated since my engine rebuild 900 miles ago). After too much cranking, I had gas in my oil pan.

Here are the facts as they stand today:

-Changed the oil and filter.
-When cranking, no unusual sounds. Sounds as if motor is cranking without fuel or spark.
-New fuel pump installed and pumping fuel to engine.
-Checked fuel filter...easy to blow through with little resistance
-New spark plugs (wet with gas after cranking)
-Getting spark from the coil and at the plugs (checked one plug on each side of engine while cranking)
-Ran a compression test last Fall and I had compression
-I used a Mitivac to test the CSV. It held 15 PSI for over 30 seconds, then I stopped the test
-Sprayed Starting Fluid in air intake with choke closed and open...nothing
-Sprayed Starting Fluid in spark plug hole, screwed in plug, attached wire, cranked...nothing (did this with 2 different plugs on both sides on engine)
-Checked all vacuum rubber hoses to make sure they were still connected. They were.

So, I have spark, air, and fuel, but no combustion!

I've been given the advise that maybe the spark isn't strong or hot enough and that maybe my Pentronix unit that replaced my points is the issue. However, the spark looked consistent and normal. Especially after spraying Starting Fluid, shouldn't it at least try to start?

Another though is that the timing has jumped. The car has less than 1k miles since a new double chain was installed. That doesn't seem likely.

I simply have no idea what could be causing this. Before I blame it on the FI unit and spend $5k getting it fixed, I'd like to do some more troubleshooting. Maybe it is something simple I'm not thinking about.

MikeM

Maybe all your plugs are gas fouled? They will fire outside the engine but not under compression?

Check your ignition points and see if the contacts are crusty.

Frankie the Fink

MikeM

Forget the points. On a second read, I see you have one of those gadgets installed in place of points.

If you were getting spark to the plugs (inside the engine), the starting fluid should have made it hit unless you've flooded the engine and/or the plugs.

hedgehead

You said simple, so just for fun recheck your firing order.

Utahcarguy

Car was running just fine with the same firing order. When I pulled the old plugs, I also labeled them before pulling them. Not a bad suggestion, but not likely the issue.

Also, regarding gas fouled new plugs, I pulled all the plugs form the engine and let them dry for 2 days. Could they still be gas fouled after I let them dry?

OC-1

engine rebuilt 900 miles and timing chain replaced before or after rebuild?

If we are not to repeat history of the ghosts of early FI past, coil, ignition components, timing marks line up with tab @ tDC? relate to timing chain replacement, jumped a tooth?

315 hsp or gen driven tach?

put the new choke parts in yet?

check out Mr Bramletts site.

Utahcarguy

Timing Chain done during rebuild, 900 miles ago. 315 HP (Distributor driven tach).

No, the new choke parts are not yet installed. That should not matter for starting, correct?

jimh_1962

Cheap fix is to replace the pertronix ignitor. You can check the spark with a spark plug tester. I recently had a problem with mine and replaced it. Started just fine with the replacement.

SDVette

Hard to imagine not even a slight stumble with spark and fuel present... unless the timing is WAY OFF, or you have stuck valves....

MikeM

In my experience, letting gas fouled plugs dry for two days may/may not help. I always heated them up with a torch until the gasoline ignited and caused a flame. Let them cool off and then re-install. Sometimes I got lucky, sometimes I didn't

If you choke isn't going shut and you are using starting fluid (in the correct amount), then the choke should matter just to get it to fire.

What kind of plugs are in the engine? If you have AC 43's, that's about all that needs to be said.

Utahcarguy

I replaced the old plugs with ACDelco Rapidfire Platinum #7, which I was told was one step hotter.

I just got off the phone with John Degregory (great guy!). He said for me to disable the CSV by using a long piece of 1/4" hose and clamp it off to the fuel meter. Then, spray gas into the windshield washer port on the plenum.

He said that with the choke (really not a choke at all, it's a cold enrichment) broken and the CSV stuck, I didn't have a chance for it to start.

I will update later tonight!

jim lockwood

Correct.

Your '61 FI unit does not have a "choke"; it has a cold enrichment mechanism which has zip-point-zero effect on starting. It does have a crude effect on air/fuel mixture for a couple of minutes after the engine starts.

Jim

MikeM

Yes, forgot his unit didn't have a choke plate.

jim lockwood

The early cold enrichment is such an awful mechanism that I don't even have one installed on the mongrel unit I run on my '60. A small block off plate takes it place.

Utahcarguy

Jim, John DeGregory mentioned you by name. Do you have any insight as to what my (starting) problem is?

I installed the new black cold enrichment top and blocked off the CSV tube to the fuel meter (left eh CSV installed int eh plenum). Still nothing but cranking.

John seemed concerned about my original number matching engine being injured (or worse) due to hydraulic lock up from fuel. He talked me into the safety doohickey thing that helps protect the engine from such things. I ordered that and new hoses and intake gasket.

He said for me to study the ST-12 manual and do a flow test on the FI unit outside of the car and see if I am getting a regular stream of fuel. However, I don't think fuel is my problem. The nozzles were wet when I pulled the FI unit out of the car and when I spun the cable, fuel squirted out of them.

jim lockwood

I get the sense that your engine is flooded. If your FI unit does not have an electric fuel shut off valve added on, it could flood any time the engine is not running. As John DeGregory indicated, that situation seriously jeopardizes your original engine.

If that unit were mine, I would pull it off the engine and retrofit it with the electric valve before doing anything else. This might not fix your no start condition, but at least you won't break the engine while diagnosing the problem.


I also get the sense your car might have more than one problem. The lack of the electric fuel valve won't affect how your engine runs, once it starts. John's suggestion to pinch off the tubing between the CSV and the fuel meter is a good diagnostic step. If the engine runs better, the CSV is faulty, regardless of what the Miti-Vac indicates.


Beyond this, I don't have enough information to even hazard a guess as to why your engine was running badly.... when it was willing to run.

I think it makes sense to postpone thinking about this until it's possible to at least get the engine to start and to not be at risk of damage from the FI unit.


Jim

Utahcarguy

Jim, I am taking your advice and waiting to do anything else until I get that electric fuel valve installed. I also bought a new CSV from John, so that will take one more thing out of the equation.

I will update further once I can start working on this again.

Utahcarguy

So I have now pulled the 2nd set of (new) plugs in case they were fouled and replaced them with another new set.

-I installed the solenoid to prevent fuel from free-flowing into the engine.
-I rebuilt the fuel meter pump with new seal and gasket (fixed small fuel leak).
-Ran a flow test with a high speed drill, fuel flows great with vacuum applied.
-Tested distributor to ensure it was driving the cable to the fuel meter
-Bought and tested a new CSV

So I installed everything back together and she still won't start. Cranking with nothing else.

I pulled a plug and I can NOT smell gas on the plug. I know the fuel pump is working (it filled the fuel meter while I cranked engine) and the FI unit is working because I flow tested it.

WHAT IS GOING ON?! I also replaced the cold enrichment cover and I wonder if something in side that is not working properly. Could that stop the car from starting?

MikeM

You said in your first post your plugs were wet. Now, they are dry?

I would get a pump oil can, put some fresh gasoline in it and squirt some directly into the air meter and into the plenum. If it still won't start and the plugs aren't wet by now, I'd be befuddled.

Time to take the advice offered early on above and junk the pertronix and replace with a set of points and see what happens.