Dave Cunningham

Posted this by accident on the intros forum, and I can't figure out how to move it or delete it so here goes again:
I am at the point that I have to decide which five speed trans I am going to install in my 67 roadster, I had a Richmond in my 66 and absolutely loved it, with the 3.08s in the back , it was perfectly geared, and even though I have heard it can't be done, I installed it without removing the motor.
Anyway I am in Canada, and the prices on these trannies has gone through the roof, which I leading me to consider a TRemec, they are quite a bit cheaper up here, but just wondering: will it actually fit in a car that has 47 year old body mounts?, will I have to shorten the driveshaft? What is the optimal gear ratio to give you the best all around performance (rear end)? Does the sidewinder shifter actually line up with the console properly ? Which is the best fifth gear ratio to select ( they have two)?
Any help would be appreciated.

Crunch527

Dave,

I have stuffed a TKO600 in my 67...mine is a small block car.

Couple things:

1. Sounds like you are looking at Hurst Driveline (hence the reference to the "side winder shifter")...they are a good option for the type of information you are seeking.

2. American Powertrain is another good option. Both have detailed web sites and tech staff that can help.

3. Yes, the driveshaft has to be shortened.

4. I ultimately pulled the engine in order to get the TKO in my car. I tried installing with the engine in the car and "hung" the trans on the clutch disc during install and ruined the clutch. Of course I didn't discover that until it was all together and I had to tear it all apart again. I was ready to burn it to the ground...

5. Crossmember Mod?: I highly recommend considering a mod to your trans crossmember such that it is removable (provided you are not worried about originality)...your call of course but it will make the job infinitely easier. Tons of threads on the topic. I still need to mod mine but I did buy the flanges from Ray Dowling so I am ready whenever I get the chance.

6. Rear gear: for my 383 small block, I have found either a 3:73 or 4:11 to work great with the .64 overdrive tremec. Given you are running a big block, you may be able to get away with a little less gear (3:36/3:08) and be fine. However, the vendors from Hurst and American Powertrain will tell you a 3:73 ratio is the best all around gear with a tremec. I currently have 3:73 gears.

7. 5th Gear ratio: I have done two of these transmissions and they were both the same...they were the .64 5th gear overdrive. The .64 is nice because it really backs down the RPMs and allows the engine to cruise at 2500ish RPMs. The one thing about the .64 5th gear is that it is a SIGNIFICANT drop-off from the 1.00 4th gear. I go from hammering through he gears and when I get 5th the party is over...kind of a dud in a way. Over time, I have begun to wonder if the .82 would have been better/more fun for my driving style? I don't race and only use the car on the street for short trips and cruising. That said, I am still very happy with the .64 BUT I would like to explore the .82 5th gear option one day. Preferably, find someone who has a similar set and go for a ride to see first hand if I would like the .82...(I am not going to buy a another tremor just to test this out)

8. Driving style: this will be the key to whether you decide on a .64 or .82 5th gear. The two vendor websites I mentioned above have "speed analyzers" that will help you understand what the difference in the transmission gearing will mean to you. Take a look and plug in some numbers. For example, for my application at 65 MPH the .62 will have cruising at approx 2500RPMs vs the .82 which will have me cruising at about 2800 RPMs. Again, its all a matter of personal preference.

9. Shifter: the vendors I mentioned have provisions in order for the shifter to line up in the proper location...not sure what vendor you are looking at in Canada?

10. Body mounts/floor sagging: I, like many others, had to raise the floors by adding some material between the trans crossmember and the floor. My body mounts are original and my floors have sagged. Therefore, I had to do something. Overall, my floors had sagged about a 1/2 inch in the center and no way was that tremec going to fit. Some guys use hockey pucks...I sandwiched a couple pieces of that synthetic deck material (I had it laying around) on both sides and it has worked fine. If I ever pull the body off, I will weld in some additional body support mounts to more permanently address this issue. I also need to change the body mounts but I will get to that someday.

What did I miss?

Frank

Frankie the Fink

I haven't driven a Richmond (well maybe I have and forgot what its like) but I will tell you the two chief complaints on the TKOs are the notchy shifter feel and nailing high RPM 2-3 shifts. After several thousand miles the shifting gets somewhat less notchy but still noticeable; the 2-3 shift takes some mastery. You HAVE to let the detents do their job and not force the shift. I have a C1 but I've found an open-handed "push" towards the center console "TEMP" **** is the ticket. Get that a little off or force the shift and you'll jam things up for sure.

Low Rider

Frankie although I value your. Information over most anyone on this forum, I can't agree with your view entirely on the TKO. I have one in my 57 with the Hurst set up and there is absolutely no notchy feeling what so ever and the 2-3 shift is a breeze with practily a straight up open hand shift. Not sure if I was just lucky or if it is just the Hurst verse the other shifters but mine is perfect???

Frankie the Fink

I think you are just lucky my friend. There are even a few youtube videos showing how to master the 2-3 shift. That tells me the issue is pretty common.

Dave Cunningham

Guys thanks so much for your responses , especially first Frank, now that was an informative answer ! I forgot to mention that the car does have its original 4.11 gear set in it right now , so if that would work , it would save me some cash, but it sounds like 3.70 would really be the way to go.
I am going to have to spend some time figuring out the ratios on their respective websites, but thanks for the info on how the overdrive feels in fifth, with the .64 ratio. If anyone here knows of a used Richmond that someone has laying around , please let me know.
Geez, I thought someone might say " wow nice L71" lol

327carguy

WOW nice L71

Tom Austin

Hi Dave,

I've been following along and would like to comment. I really think you can work with your 4.11 rear . . . and the .64 5th gear will work great with that ratio. You shouldn't be so concerned about the 5th gear ration, but the 1st gear ration in the overdrive you choose.

I have a G-Force Street 5-Speed Transmission (remanufactured GM World Class T5) with a .63 5th gear in my '66 L79 with 4.11 rear gears. I can drive it in 5th gear with no issues as low as 35-40 mph - and the cruise on the highway @ 70 is only @ 2400 - it's awesome. Part of the rebuild of my T5 to the G-Force 5 speed was a replacement of the 1-4 gears . . . including a swap from a 2.95 1st gear to a 2.42 1st gear. The 2.95 (with the 4.11) was way too steep . . . the 2.42 1st gear is now perfect! Again . . . with the 4.11 rear pay close attention to the 1-4 gears vs the 5th gear ratio! Good luck!

Tom

Dave Cunningham

There we go! Thanks 327 carguy

Dave Cunningham

Thanks Tom!

Crunch527

Thanks and glad to help...I enjoy sharing what I have learned in hopes someone else can benefit. I wasted volumes of cash trying to figure out what drivetrain combos are good.👍

Agree the 4:11s will be fine, save your money...some guys will say first gear with 4:11s is too short but I don't think so. I had 4:11s and I think it was more fun to drive overall because the 4:11s kept the car lively when going to 5th gear...a good counterbalance to the .62. If I had to replace the gears I would go back to 4:11s. That big block will be a hoot!

Cheers,

Frank

Frankie the Fink

If you go with a 3.70 rear gear and the TKO like I have done you will find its a phenomenal combo. I got a deeper first gear out of it so taking off from a stop uphill with some dillhole right on your rear bumper is not so dramatic, and, cruising at 75mph doesn't have that solid lifter motor ripping along like a buzz saw. The attachment shows the TKO setup that I've used for like 20,000 miles now. Using ATF instead of the Synchromesh is supposed to make the gear shifts smoother - I've never tried it.

This snippet from my Keisler invoice shows the ratios I'm running

MarkC

I have the AP TKO 600 and it has been in the car almost 3 years. I have almost 10,000 miles on it. I find the shifting to be smooth. I also have the 3.70 rear gear and in my opinion, the gearing is perfect. I also have the .62 fifth gear which I like. Before I made my decision, I talked to Grey Frederick with AP and I also talked to Hurst. They both told me they make their own shifter and claimed their's was the best. I have not driven a car with a Hurst so I can't say which one is better. Personally I think the TKO is a great upgrade for our cars. The kit offered by AP was complete however the install is a bitch. I paid a race shop to install mine and they said if they do another one, they will pull the motor.

Crunch527

Yep...the install with the nonremovable crossmember is a nightmare...even with pulling the engine I had to drop the steering linkage in order to get the right angle to get the tail shaft up and over the crossmember...I did it by myself and it was a huge fight. I can only imagine trying it with a big block...

Dr L-88

I installed my big block with Richmond 5 speed attached, by myself (stock crossmember). Drove it for a while and didn't like the notchy feel when shifting, so I pulled the Richmond (again by myself, from under the car). Just about whooped me.......................I'm too old to be laying under a car changing transmissions. Not as young as I once was, but at least I'm still mowing the grass and not growing it.

Dave Cunningham

Thanks for the responses guys, very helpful, I am suprised that the only person that has experienced a richmond, actually pulled it back out again.
Frank , just looking at those gear ratios, I am thinking that with a 2.87 first gear in the Tremec , and 4.11s , that I will find first gear too low. The M21 has a 2.20 first gear and I find it is perfect with the 4.11s. And I really want some nice low rpm highway cruising, .
Sounds like if I do go with the Tremec, that I might as well drop the steering before even attempting the install.

Tom Austin

Dave,

I pulled my engine / T5 a number of times to get everything sorted out . . .and, yes . . . installing your engine and transmission together is the only way to go. And, yes, you'll need to drop the steering linkage to get it out of the way to clear the oil pan. Only 6 bolts - no big deal. Good luck!

Tom

Frankie the Fink

With a 4.11 rear you'll have a "stump puller" 1st gear for sure...which is why I was sure to add that I have a 3.70 rear in that car

Dave Cunningham

I found a good website that compares the ratios between tko 500,600 and richmond, but maybe you can help me make this comparison, if the richmond first gear is the equivalent of having an M21 with 4.56 rear end gears in first gear ( which they say it is) how does that compare to a TKO 600 in first gear with 4.11 rear end gears?

Frankie the Fink

I don't know; I do know that you would prob have to shift into 2nd before you went 40 feet from a stop with my TKO ratios and a 4.11 gear...